Spirituality, Astrology, Destiny, B. Geeta, Celibacy

[Basab]

Milred,

Reading spiritual books, following rituals etc, are all to grow in a person reverence, devotion, faith and love for God, which is there in you, already, so why will you need to take a few steps backwards? Spirituality is about realizing that you are the soul, and not the body, it is about realizing that you are one with God, it is about detaching yourself from materialistic things and attaching yourself with God. But that is the final goal. One cannot reach that point in one lifetime. We are at different levels of evolution. Being materialistic is not a sin. A person has come to this world to enjoy the world of maya created by God, and so it is foolish to ask him to turn away from it, from the very first day. He should first enjoy it for a while, and then, think of proceeding further. Spiritual desire doesn't come in a person whose material desires have not been fulfilled. So we should enjoy materialistic life, and at the same time grow a love for God. Slowly the love for God will overshadow the love for material things, and that will lead to progress in spirituality. Those who are born spiritual, have enjoyed their share of joy in this world of maya in previous lives, and that is why they don't feel the interest in it now. There is nothing wrong in leading a materialistic life, but God should not be forgotten. The creator, should not be forgotten, ever. Yes, having a pure heart, doing good to others, not harming anyone, that is also being spiritual. That path will also lead to God.

[milredr]

Very true Basab......

[Basab]

Thank you, Milred.

[milredr]

With this mentality, how we can expect to one to discuss moksha? The best way is ket these people suffer brutally at the hands of materialistic life!!

Thos who scoffs at the idea of spirituality or moksha don't know they are next!!!

There are a few pointers i would like to present:

1. This forum is called LOVA - Light on "Vedic Astrology". If people don't discuss astrology in a forum like this, where else will they discuss. So the question of why are people more interested in astrology than moksha in a forum like this is misplaced.
2. Just because people are materialistic, does not mean they are not spiritual or they scoff moksha. Everybody's ultimate goal shd be moksha. Are u saying so many of these babas or priests who act highly spiritual and make money in the name of religion will get moksha just because they potray to be spiritual? How about materialistic people who donate a lot of money, help the needy and do good - i would think that is spirituality too. The diff is in the approach.
3. Suffer bruatally - again u r assuming materialistic people cannot be spiritual. What about Oprah Winfrey? Don't u think she is spiritual? I do not agree with u at all. These are purely my views. I neither want to judge anyone or like to be judged. To each his own. My way of reaching moksha may not b ur way of reaching moksha. So lets not be judgemental.
4. Just because one talks or writes about spirituality does not make one spiritual. And going by the same logic, just because someone does not write or talk about spirituality, makes the person less spiritual. Spirituality is the way of life. One needs to practise it.

It is impossible for one to think of God who is having a successful life as the person will think that he is the Doer or He is right and that others are fool!!!.

Why would u even make a statement like this i wonder. Just because people are successful they do not think of god? And again u r assuming these people are so arrogant that they think they are doers without the help of the almighty. Higly disturbing statement i would think. Not even a mustard seed can move without the help of the almighty. One needs to always remember that. Humility and belief in the almighty shd always be a part of each one's life however difficult it is. This includes me as well.

Regards,

[Basab]

Aseem,

12th lord in the 7th house can mean many things: it can mean problems in marriage, settling down abroad, expenses and losses due to spouse, getting married to someone from a distant place, or a foreigner, etc, and it is difficult for an amateur like me to say which one exactly it will be, but knowing the little that I do about Milred, and keeping her overall chart in mind, I feel, it is will make her spiritual.

About Moon being in the highest kama house, yes, it has dragged her to a materialistic life, even when she is not after money as she herself has said, but why are you overlooking one thing: the Moon is aspected by Mars and Saturn, which is a very good combination for detachment, and then, that's not where it ends, as Mars and Saturn in her chart are spiritually very potent: Mars being the exalted 8th lord of a moksha house, and Saturn being the 5th lord of purva punya, in the 9th house of religion. Then, going a little further, Jupiter, a spiritual planet, also aspects the Moon. So, I think, it is wrong in your part to call the Moon in her chart a totally materialistic one.

Dunno man, maybe you are right..12th house does denote ashram..but 12th Lord in 7th house can also mean problems in marriage life as it is 8th from 12th house...It can also mean problems in settling down in abroad..there are many permutations and combinations...

For her, being detached is totally impossible due to Lord Moon in the highest Kama house...So I doubt whether she will take to spirituality but she can do donations to ashrams later on..

[Basab]

It is impossible for one to think of God who is having a successful life as the person will think that he is the Doer or He is right and that others are fool!!!.

Aseem,

It is not at all so. In the books I have read about Sri Ramakrishna and Swami Vivekananada, there is mention of devotees and disciples of them, who were very successful and were from the top rung of society. And then, isn't Big B a devotee of God, isn't Sachin Tendulkar a big devotee of the late Sathya Sai Baba? Why do they need to be devotees of God and of saints when they are so successful in their lives?

[sita]

Hi Bassu....so Venus----->Saturn------>Mars...haan.?..good

[Basab]

Basabji, Lord Venus is the Lord of 9th House but She is in 7th house of Kama house So no scope for spiritual life.

Second thing is that what role combust Lord Venus will play in her chart if she has everything.

Aseem,

Her 9th lord of religion is in the 7th house of kama, definitely, but then, you forgot that it is deep combust by Sun, which is the 12th lord of ashram, moksha and detachment. Normally when 9th lord of religion is in the 7th house of marriage, it is said that the spouse of the person guides the person in his/her spiritual life. I don't know if that is the case with her, but it can mean that even staying in marriage, she will grow deeply spiritual.

The role combust Venus is playing in her chart is that she is loosing interest in materialistic life, now after being fully into it for the last so many years. Earlier, exalted Venus gave its result, now her attachment to material life is getting combust by the fire of spirituality, brought in by the fiery rays of the Sun, which is turning the materialistic Venus in the 7th house to a spiritual one as the 9th lord of religion.

[Basab]

Aseem,

You are welcome. About Saturn return, I don't know whether it has changed me, but I have grown a love for spiritual books, which maybe is be due to the sub-period of the 5th lord of Saturn, which I am running now.

A perfect example of Lord Saturn Return!!! Maybe it can also happen with you ir happening with you!!!

This realisation has to be there for one to finally tread the path of moksha!!!

Thanks Basabji for sharing this story on the thread!!!

[Basab]

Sita,

I got Venus-Mars period when I was 22 years old, but it didn't make me fall for anyone. I just had an infatuation, at that time.

Hi Bassu....so Venus----->Saturn------>Mars...haan.?..good

[Basab]

Just because one talks or writes about spirituality does not make one spiritual. And going by the same logic, just because someone does not write or talk about spirituality, makes the person less spiritual. Spirituality is the way of life. One needs to practise it.

This is so, so true. This thing has been repeated in most of the spiritual books I have read. Talking and writing on spirituality doesn't make one spiritual, living it makes one that. In the last 2 years I have read quite a few books on spirituality, and I am almost addicted to books on that subject now, but, I am still to become even a little spiritual in my life. Milred doesn't read any book on spirituality, but I know she is more spiritual than I am. She has this deep love for God, which I have not been able to grow even after reading and writing and talking about spirituality all the time. One of my school friends, who doesn't call himself spiritual, has not read any single book on spirituality, and doesn't like discussing the subject, is in many ways a lot more spiritual than I am. I get amazed by his ability to control his emotions in his moments of deepest agony and by his not reacting to any provocative statement when anyone in his place would. I feel like stopping reading all the spiritual books and learning from him, how to develop forbearance, and learn from Milred, how to grow such deep love for God. Reading spiritual books, talking and discussing spirituality, doesn't help much. It is all sham. Truly spiritual people doesn't talk on spirituality, they walk that path, instead.

[Basab]

With this mentality, how we can expect to one to discuss moksha? The best way is ket these people suffer brutally at the hands of materialistic life!!

Thos who scoffs at the idea of spirituality or moksha don't know they are next!!!

Aseem,

If everyone turn to spirituality, what will happen to the world? We need worldly people as much as we need spiritual people, and that is why things are like that. And don't scare the materialistic people. There is nothing wrong in being that. We all want to enjoy life, and I don't think there is anything wrong in that. Why has God created this beautiful world, full of attractions, if He didn't want us to enjoy it? Let us enjoy the world of maya for sometime, and then, we will think of going beyond that. Till then, don't scare us.

[Sudarshang]

Bhaja Govindam, Bhaja Govindam, Govindam Bhaja moodh matey! When it comes to Mati, it is Moodh. Thinking God created this beautiful world in order to be an enjoyment for human senses, is precisely, "falling into the trap" He laid! As humans, we have to use our initiative, knowledge, and braincells to decide what to enjoy and what not! Without that much initiative, moksha will not come by itself. All this talk about "I will be do gooder and moksha will follow" is incorrect application of half learned knowledge. doing good only results in increasing "punya" or positive karmic balance resulting in a better or more fortunate birth next life - not Moksha. For those that take the initiative in this life, Moksha can be realized in this life itself - however one needs to understand the technique. There is only one bottomline equation for moksha - whichever path you follow - Karmic Balance must become Zero - whether through Bhakti, Jnana, or Karma, it does not matter. All of us human beings can't live without performing Karma (here, action.). How to perform a Karma without accumulating more karmic points, while living to expend the balance of Karma is the technique that will lead to zero karmic balance.

[Dev]

Sudarshan:

I agree that karmic balance needs to be zero for attaining moksha.
So one needs to balance his punya and papa karma and needs to do nishkamya karma from then on.
Now if someone approaches for help and we try to do, if he takes advantage and continuously asks for help, say in the form of money or so on, we may help a few times but then how to react to it, say in case he cheats us, should we not react? That is ideal if it was nishkamya karma but in reality, can we have that frame of mind where we are not at all perturbed. In case it is so, then it would only say that we are elevated souls.
It is practically uneasy I feel. I can only be angry with such a cheat. I may help if he is nice number of times but when he starts to cheat, I may get angry and would say I helped and u cheated but if he behaved well, I would continue to help without saying I helped. So it appeared nishkamya karma but once the person cheats, it becomes a karma.
Dev

[Sudarshang]

Moksha is easiest attained in kaliyuga. Moksha is best attained when you have taken human birth as you are endowed with intellligence to understand what is Moksha and what paths lead to it. It is most difficult to get human birth among all births. When half the ocean has been crossed by getting a human life, we get mired in all kinds of wrong knowledge that hides from us what is Moksha and how to attain it. Wrong philosophies guide us to do wrong things resulting in taking us farther and farther away from Moksha. On this platform I have seen and come across many intelligent people who can take that one last step - and yet they are not there! One twist - one turn, and they could be there ...yet they are not there .... I see the hesitation, Rajo guna preventing them from taking that step. It's a pity, what else.

Disclaimer: this post is not aimed at any particular previous post - it is general to all those that I have interacted with on this forum as well as those that I have not interacted with.

[Sudarshang]

Sudarshan:

I agree that karmic balance needs to be zero for attaining moksha.
So one needs to balance his punya and papa karma and needs to do nishkamya karma from then on.
Now if someone approaches for help and we try to do, if he takes advantage and continuously asks for help, say in the form of money or so on, we may help a few times but then how to react to it, say in case he cheats us, should we not react? That is ideal if it was nishkamya karma but in reality, can we have that frame of mind where we are not at all perturbed. In case it is so, then it would only say that we are elevated souls.
It is practically uneasy I feel. I can only be angry with such a cheat. I may help if he is nice number of times but when he starts to cheat, I may get angry and would say I helped and u cheated but if he behaved well, I would continue to help without saying I helped. So it appeared nishkamya karma but once the person cheats, it becomes a karma.
Dev

Dev,

Think and reflect upon what you say when doing Sankalpam during nitya karma or naimithiga karma. However, before it fructifies, pancha-samskaram is first step. Acharyan's kadaksham alone bestows the knowledge needed in this respect.

Regards

Sudarshan

[Dev]

Basab:

You talk of enjoying the world of maya for more time. I am surprised.
When a person who eats lot of sweets becomes a diabetic, he starts drinking coffee without sugar. I have seen many such people. Also he is unmoved by people around him swallowing loads of tasty sweets.
You have undergone suffering till now due to past life karmas, you said. And then u should be the one first thinking of getting away from maya. Materialistic, one cannot get rid of altogether. But having too much passion for it gives a wrong feeling as though u have everything in life that u want (materialistic), and so u want to enjoy.
So tell me if u are really enjoying materialistic life? All that is happening with u and so on. I dont think so since u have exposed ur problems in the forum. Since u were open, I am writing, dont get offended.
It is true that one should not get trapped in this maya. When my mother was not there, then I felt so depressed that I could not digest and come to terms with reality. I even pleaded to God to give her back to me but that did not happen. So reality is bitter but one needs to come to terms with it.
Same way may be u find to hard to come to terms with reality but u have to cross the ocean.
Whether we like or not, reality is harsh but how long can we get trapped in maya.
I have had several experiences of people talking very sweetly for long and then cheating, this was their intention right from the beginning, ie to trap others to make money or get other favours. So what is the need to get dissolved in that maya or float in that maya?


Dev

[Sudarshang]

Sudarshan:

I agree that karmic balance needs to be zero for attaining moksha.
So one needs to balance his punya and papa karma and needs to do nishkamya karma from then on.
Now if someone approaches for help and we try to do, if he takes advantage and continuously asks for help, say in the form of money or so on, we may help a few times but then how to react to it, say in case he cheats us, should we not react? That is ideal if it was nishkamya karma but in reality, can we have that frame of mind where we are not at all perturbed. In case it is so, then it would only say that we are elevated souls.
It is practically uneasy I feel. I can only be angry with such a cheat. I may help if he is nice number of times but when he starts to cheat, I may get angry and would say I helped and u cheated but if he behaved well, I would continue to help without saying I helped. So it appeared nishkamya karma but once the person cheats, it becomes a karma.
Dev

Dev

Swami Prathivadi Bhayankaram Annangarachariar also known as Kanchi Swami has performed great service to the community - he has written numerous books - they are all in a difficult to read form of tamil called Manipravalam. Basically it is sanskritized tamil. One of his publications is titled "Who is a Sri Vaishnavan". It is most difficult to understand, and even if understood, most difficult in present day life to live like what he has said. However it worth reading and using it as a guidance to how we should live in situations you have mentioned. The moment you become a vairagi through Acharyan's kadaksham, you will get the insights into how to deal with the situation. Eventually, Bhagvaan is everything - including material wealth, friends, relatives, father, mother, son, ...everything.

[Dev]

Sudarshan,

Yes, I agree with u, I have a similar version of the book(Vainavan enge) but have not read.
It is difficult but I dont know how quickly we can get away from maya when around us we see people full of maya. I see many people acting like sugar coated tablet, when the coating goes, then it becomes bitter, similarly they act initially that way and when they get things done, they behave differently. I dont know how to deal with such people but then many are like that.
Anyway I will try to read such books. Vairagya is a word which can be spelt easily but it is difficult to become a viaragi. Anyway each one should try. May be you already are to a great extent.

Dev

[Sudarshang]

Dev

Pancha-samskaram is like magic potion - that few minutes you spend with the Acharyan transforms everything and makes the impossible, possible (not in a material sort of way). What happens is - when that has happened, you start preparing yourself for the other world, therefore you lose interest in this world completely - now that is how vairagyam happens. You still dont give up your desires - you start desiring for the other world instead of earthly things.

[Basab]

Dev,

I have not yet enjoyed the world, that is why I am hankering for worldly enjoyment. About people who eats lots of sugar and become a diabetic and start drinking sugarless tea, well, I am drinking tea without sugar since the very beginning; that is why I desire to have tea with sugar, now.

About suffering, yes, I have had a lot of suffering as it was in my destiny, but that is why I am waiting eagerly to enjoy the good times, too, of course if they come. I have seen the suffering that the world of maya can give, so I don't want to, at any cost, miss the enjoyment that this world of maya can give, if it's destined that way, of course.

Now, coming to this line that you have said: "Materialistic, one cannot get rid of altogether. But having too much passion for it gives a wrong feeling as though u have everything in life that u want (materialistic), and so u want to enjoy.", well, I think a person who has it all, doesn't feel that hunger for success as one who doesn't have it. A person who is in empty stomach, for a couple of days, will feel much more hunger than someone who has been taking 3 meals everyday. Same with life: I am hungry for success because I haven't had any of it, ever. And I demand it more than someone, who is getting it in abundance.

About materialistic life, I am not enjoying it at all, in the sense that I have not got what I wanted. I will enjoy it when I get what I want. Now, when I am suffered a lot in this materialistic life, I want to get some enjoyment too in this life, or else, it will be like, I had tea without sugar for 15 years and when my turn was supposed to come for taking tea with sugar, I gave up taking tea as I had lost interest in it. I don't want to get into spirituality because, who knows, someday destiny may shower its blessings on me with good time, and I don't want to miss it, at any cost. I have done my suffering, why shouldn't I wait for some enjoyment, too?

I am sorry to hear about your mother's death. I can understand you must have felt terrible then. Yes, reality is bitter, and one has to come to terms with it, but then, that doesn't mean that one should escape reality, by detaching oneself from it, by becoming spiritual. Being spiritual is worshipping God, now, tell me, can you worship that God who didn't return your mother back?

Reality is harsh, but that doesn't mean we should run away from it. We can't do that, even if we try. It's not easy. The world of maya is such that we can't help but get mesemerized by it.

There are bad people, who cheat others, but there are good people, too. Aren't we a part of the world of maya, too?

[Dev]

Thanks Sudarshan, that is very interesting. That is why it is essential for every dwija.
So vairagya when cannot be developed easily by individual(can take a long time depending on his desires), panchasamskara with the help of acharya acts as a catalyst. So it is obvious that acharya has the major role to play in elevating the individual.

Dev

[Dev]

Basab:

I agree with u on most of your points. Yes when u have experienced negative aspects of materialistic life, there would be an inherent crave to experience the positive aspects too, unless that is fulfilled it is difficult to turn to spirituality. It should come as a smooth transition. May be if in few years u achieve all in materialistic way and then find it to be maya after enjoyment, u would then become spiritual.

Some special souls who from the very beginning had vairagya and became a monk are exceptions who have it carried over from previous janmas. So here is the link, one cannot think of this janma in isolation, if they do so, they can never be happy and can never explain things.

Still, after saying all this, I felt that if u have not had enjoyment and had suffering, when the enjoyment itself is a maya, the enjoyment that u did not have, thinking about it and saying that u want to enjoy, becomes another maya. Once of course u experience that, u will feel having achieved something materialistically.

You, your dear ones, and all of us in the forum, our relatives, friends, enemies will all die one day and that is reality.
Dev

[Sudarshang]

Dev,

I have not yet enjoyed the world, that is why I am hankering for worldly enjoyment. About people who eats lots of sugar and become a diabetic and start drinking sugarless tea, well, I am drinking tea without sugar since the very beginning; that is why I desire to have tea with sugar, now.

About suffering, yes, I have had a lot of suffering as it was in my destiny, but that is why I am waiting eagerly to enjoy the good times, too, of course if they come. I have seen the suffering that the world of maya can give, so I don't want to, at any cost, miss the enjoyment that this world of maya can give, of course, if that's destined for me.

Basab:

Aren't you chasing a Mrig-trishna? Arent't they two sides of the same coin? You are seeing one, and saying I dont have the other!

[Dev]

Yes, Basab, as Sudarshan says, the other side of the coin appears as enjoyment but is also suffering. If u love someone and think it is permanent and when u lose that person be it mother, father or others, u would realise that the permanence is not there and that causes pain too. That is indirect pain, ie u enjoyed and then suffered, others could be direct pain when u experince it in the beginning itself.
Anyway what I felt was for a human who has not much of spiritual orientation, it could be difficult to understand what is reality unless u pass out each stage.
It is like Queen Victoria when said the people are suffering for breads, said they could eat cakes instead.
So to understand something which u havent experienced needs advanced thinking and to think beyond what u havent experienced and cannot clearly visualise. It needs extreme intelligence and would be difficult.
Dev