Suicide:Why is it considered a sin?

[roseyrose]

Well, if I remember correctly then in 'Gospel of Ramakrishna' someone told him that one of his disciples has severed his throat and Ramakrishna in return, without a trash of any anguish, said happily so at last he has attained salvation in his own way. His logic was the aim of Gopal, just guessing the name, was to reach the abode of his Ishta and merge with him instead of ending his life due to any worldly woes. And we know Geeta says the last dominating thought in your mind, at the death bed, decides your next birth.

But I request other members please don't think it is another way to realisation . I am just sharing it what I read.

Dear Anupamji,

what you have said makes sense...so what is the definition of suicide that we are working with anyways ? and what is a sin and what is not?

regards,

rose

[Abhijit Muhurta !!!]

And we know Geeta says the last dominating thought in your mind, at the death bed, decides your next birth.

Remembered a funny story based on the above theme..... goes as follows...

There was a businessman in a town....once a sadhu was passing by his shop...the merchant asked him...sir..how do i get moksha ?
the sadhu replied..."in your death bed your last thought and words on your lips should be of god" saying this he left. The merchant gave this a lot of thought...and hit upon a plan..." any way when i am old and feeble i'll be calling on my children for help...so i'll name them on different gods."
He got married...ended up having 4 sons named them Rama,Shiva,Krishna,Hari....time passed by..his business grew....he got retired...his sons took over....and finally our man was on the death bed...and 3 sons were near him...the one in the shop got news of this and he too came to be at his fathers side...the old merchant slowly opened his eyes...and saw all his 4 sons surrounding him....instinctly cried out....all you fools are here....who the hell is taking care of the cash and the shop...? saying this he took his last breath....

Regards,

[Dev]

Dear Anupam:

A very good article by you.

After reading that, I am reminded of a relative of mine who was very religious and also orthodox. He has two sons, when they were in college, he always wanted that they should go to US for higher studies so that he can be proud of them. In fact one one hand, he was a task master and would ensure that they did not miss their trikalasandhya ever. They also followed what he said and finally both took up software profession and went to US. Now they almost got settled and dont even want to come back. He is now in his eithties and still a very determined person, but then he may be hiding his emotions and the anger shows up as an outlet when he shouts at his wife at no fault of hers. He also has health problems like diabetis and so on.
He is still extremely religious and performs trikala sandhya regularly(almost never stopped doing them since his upanayana, I was told), still prays to God, offers pooja everyday, does shradda karmas very regularly, entertains relatives and guests at home all the time, but his only weakness is his short tempered nature and arrogance. Now anyway internally he is suffering since he feels isolated.
He alone was responsible for sending his sons(because he was such an authoritative person that if he stressed that they should not go away from India, they would have listened then) and now he is repenting because he has to take the blame and they cant be blamed. When they enjoyed the stay at US, they did not want to leave the place. Anyway for a materialistic person which most of us are, dollars, absence of power cuts, all modern facilities, are all more important that family. See, they have no feeling now and may be when they are old their kids would do the same thing to them.
Dev

[Dev]

Abhijit Muhurta:

That was a nice story written by u probably during Abhijit Muhurta .
The father in the story could still have called their names and told them to go the shop, anyway the greed was so strong that even the names did not come out of his mouth. That is what the story shows. It is just like u may love english and want to show off ur skills in the language to everyone but when u recieve a shock or suddenly someone beats u from behind, the lanuage of the word that comes out of your mouth is that of your own mother tongue.
So it is like your mother tongue is atma, and the english that u try to speak to show off is your maya or polluted atma or the body.
Like there greed, here ego or showing off has caused maya to cover the atma. Unless the sheath of maya is removed say whether it is ego, lust, anger, greed or whatever, the atma would not be cleaned and cannot reach to join the paramatma.

Dev

[Abhijit Muhurta !!!]

Abhijit Muhurta:

That was a nice story written by u probably during Abhijit Muhurta .
The father in the story could still have called their names and told them to go the shop, anyway the greed was so strong that even the names did not come out of his mouth. That is what the story shows. It is just like u may love english and want to show off ur skills in the language to everyone but when u recieve a shock or suddenly someone beats u from behind, the lanuage of the word that comes out of your mouth is that of your own mother tongue.
So it is like your mother tongue is atma, and the english that u try to speak to show off is your maya or polluted atma or the body.
Like there greed, here ego or showing off has caused maya to cover the atma. Unless the sheath of maya is removed say whether it is ego, lust, anger, greed or whatever, the atma would not be cleaned and cannot reach to join the paramatma.

Dev

Dev...nice interpretation of the story in context of atma....

[Dev]

Thanks, Abhijit Muhurta .
Dev

[roseyrose]

Dear Anupamji,

You have thrown light on this very much !!!!!!!

I would say you may not find any fixed definition for the quality of karma that you are doing which we human classify in two sections Punyas and Paapas or good and bad deeds. But from somewhere we have to start and for me here Geeta helps me in a great way!!! that says " Your intention decides the nature of karma".

true..so very true....i was remembering a story of sage patanjali..it seems while teaching was going on ....a mosquito started disturbing the shishya very much ..he tried to concentrate on the teaching and was very very disturbed but he did not do anything..after some time out of sheer anger , shishya just wished something....then patanjali stopped and asked him..why do u not kill the physical body also ? the shishya was so amazed .....and then patanjali said,"u have already killed him in the mind ..so why not go ahead and complete the task itself ? " ..... and u have said this bfully..kudos...

If he wants to become multi-millionire why stop him!!! in the name of dharma and saintly sermons. Why putting obstacles in his journey and then leaving this world with unsatisfied desire only to prolong his journey. It is a grave sin. Everybody can't become a saint like you. But as a father it is your duty to make him learn some ethics and you should have an art of inculcating them in his mind rather throwing dry sermons whose meaning you even do not know.

So, you see Punya and Paapa sometimes have very thin border-line. However, I would say his ways are not enigmatic they only appear to be enigmatic because of our limited individualistic perception.

so true..u can have only give samskaras to children..rest and their life would always be according their vasanas and that vasanas can be subjugated to a great extent by these samskaras..but if it is not developed fully then at one stage or another, the negativity would start to show..true colours are always true...and maybe that is why vasanas and ur individual guna depends on ur past karma and thus horoscope and by extension astrology becomes the best available tool...

Have you read Mahabharta completely !! If yes, then remember the episode of Krishna and Gandhari where Gandhari cursed Krishna that one day his own kingdom will reduce to dust due to the war among his own kith and kins same as he killed her sons on the battle ground of Kurushetra. Finally she said that he would die alone, far away from his family, at a desolate place same as he killed her son Duryodhana in the forest. What happened at last!! exactly as she cursed!!! What is the lesson then!!!

well yes multiple times....i shocked my father one day when he asked me about my views on Lord Krishna...I said the greatest king maker ever to have lived on this earth who started from a cow herd etc etc....political maestro etal....so it was punishment time and back to the basics....

when gandhari cursed krishna, he very humbly told, it is as you wish and it is my desire also..if the yadus had not been wiped by inter fighting krishna would have had to take another janma for finishing off the yadu kula..bcos they had become the most powerful by that time right and the whole beauty of krishna being born in the yadu kula would have been lost..

but it is intresting that it is only subhadra's and arjunan's son abhimanyu's son parikshit who continued the indraprastha lineage...so very very intresting..draupadi's 5 sons were destroyed in the war.......

but it is also intresting that there is concepts of free will in the mahabharata...when kauravas and pandavas negotiate, krishna as a mediator asks for indraparastha, small no of rajya,single rajya, multiple villages, single village and then just bhoomi ...but duryodhana says that i will not even give land for the pandavas to even put a needle......

and thus the mahabharata began....

but whenever i have read mahabharata i have always been struck by how everything is destiny rather than free will....what do u think anupamji?

but still suicide...pls throw some light on it...

regards,

rose

[onlyhope]

del

[roseyrose]

Dear Rosy Rose,

I think that when one has a relationship with another- be it love affair or friendship or relative, sometimes it can break and it takes just seconds to break. In kaliyuga, it breaks even more easily. I think this forum itself is good for learning astrology and even spirituality and for introverts who have noone around and for people who get cheated by most people. This forum also would be useful for depressed souls and for people with kemadruma yoga
Dev

Dear Dev,

have been racking my brain to know what to write in response and i did the best thing that i usually do when words fail me..and i borrow words from others...

Alone by Maya Angelou

Lying, thinking
Last night
How to find my soul a home
Where water is not thirsty
And bread loaf is not stone
I came up with one thing
And I don't believe I'm wrong
That nobody,
But nobody
Can make it out here alone.

Alone, all alone
Nobody, but nobody
Can make it out here alone.

There are some millionaires
With money they can't use
Their wives run round like banshees
Their children sing the blues
They've got expensive doctors
To cure their hearts of stone.
But nobody
No, nobody
Can make it out here alone.

Alone, all alone
Nobody, but nobody
Can make it out here alone.

Now if you listen closely
I'll tell you what I know
Storm clouds are gathering
The wind is gonna blow
The race of man is suffering
And I can hear the moan,
'Cause nobody,
But nobody
Can make it out here alone.

Alone, all alone
Nobody, but nobody
Can make it out here alone.

regards,

rose

[Dev]

Dear Rosy Rose:

That was a wonderful poem. Whoever the author is, it is good.
Thanks Rose,
Dev

[roseyrose]

Anupamji,

If law of karma works what was the need for avatars like Rama Or Krishna?

I do not think Sri Krishna had come just to kill few people, that any way would have taken care by the law of karma. On a gross view, there must be some hidden divine plan for entire MBH or even for Sri Krishna's birth as Avatar!!.... Do you know the real reason?

It may be possible that God creates powerful people like Ravana Or Kamsa or nowadys inelectuals like politicians through whom the the law od karma of thousands of (their) vicitms are implemented at a strech.

Mahesh

Dear Maheshji,

if i may dare to answer the q addressed to Anupamji,

first of the all, the law of karma worked and that was why avatars of krishna and Rama....

what i believe is that a parayana is mandatory for u of both these epics....that also multiple times...

till that time, there would always be such questions which no body can answer ....because you refuse to believe ....u mix science,astrology,karma,krishna,rama and come up with nothing...

so without the foundation the building will never be strong, be it of faith / astrology/knowledge ..

this was my submission ..please do not feel offended...

regards,

rose

[roseyrose]

Dear Anupamji,

In this context I would say I may don't define papa and punya in general terms. I would just say one karma prolongs the journey and the other makes it finishes sooner. Simply because if I may say 'Suicide' is a grave sin then.......... whaaaattt about 'Saints' who leave their body by going into their room , make the flow of prana upwards and then the sound 'Phat' in the Braham Randhra, the center of the skull, a little bit blood starts oozing out, and body falls upon the ground. Now bury it under ground, make Samadhi or simply go and burn it. Does it make any difference!!!! Can anyone dare to call it 'Suicide'!!!!!!!!!!! A big 'No' from my side but still we know in common human terms it is plain and simple 'Suicide'.

u made me think sirji!!!!! but as u said, it must be the state which is important....of happiness and calm vis a vis extreme emotional,mental agony and pain.......

That was why I said there is no fixed definition of good and evil deeds. It is intention that all does matter. Once I understood this bottom-line, after flipping through some of the pages, I just left the Gita aside instead of reading whole book replete with various shlokas.

but this intention of saints is done through a process,most importantly of self - knowledge which the other category do not possess...the suicide that we see is due to this lack of knowledeg and due to lack of options .....

But one thing is sure, I am really not giving dry sermons since I know it deep in my heart, no matter in what conditions you may end your life but the same series of events, that made you end your human journey abruptly, will repeat again with more virulence in coming births till the time you learn to fight with those conditions instead of thinking to cut your throat or even slit your wrist.

but is that fighting destined or free will ? do we have that in terms of controlling death ? no body can do it na..so from where will this strength come?

I may elaborate upon it all in the coming post and also explain the astrological combinations that can lead to such disastrous happenings.

please do..i am looking forward to it...

but whenever i have read mahabharata i have always been struck by how everything is destiny rather than free will....what do u think?

I will also present my views upon this matter once I finish myself from this present context of discussion.

[/quote]

ok...done...

regards,

rose

[Dev]

Hi Mahesh:

I agree with Rosy Rose. Rama and Krishna avatar was to protect the people by destruction of the evils. Why he waited for the sins to get accumulated and then destroyed the wicked is not easily answerable but each time u read these epics, the better u understand them. They may appear as stories unlike science which needs understanding but then unlike stories, when read multiple times, they give a clearer picture and give an answer. Have u seen upanyasakars raising doubts. They have clear views most of the times.

Dev

[Dev]

Mahesh,

I know that evil powers grow due to their purva punya and avatars come to erradicate them
(only for few years out of thousands of years of history of the world). But what about
the vicitms of these evil rulers? They too have to be independently come under the
karma theory and their sufferings should have a connection to that evil powers too
in past births..

I diagree with u on the above. If purva punya is strong, why should a person stoop to lower levels, will he not go upwards and try to get better, if he keeps on falling and going backwords, when will he rise? For God to come and destroy the evils, there is no karma involved.

Dev

[roseyrose]

Dear Maheshji,

as usual jumping in the midst.... a little deviation to avatars

Devji,

I know that evil powers grow due to their purva punya and avatars come to erradicate them (only for few years out of thousands of years of history of the world). But what about the vicitms of these evil rulers? They too have to be independently come under the karma theory and their sufferings should have a connection to that evil powers too in past births..Mahesh

As you are aware, there are 10 avatars...

Matysam,Koormam,Varaham,Narasimham,Vamanan,Parushuraman,Sree Rama,Sree Krishna,Balabhadra,Kalki..

till date 9 have come and the 10th kalki is anticipated...

If u see the first 5 avatars, it is just the avatar fighting one or 2 rakshasas at the most and with their destruction dharma is re-established...

We come to Parashuraman : 21 rounds of killing Kshatriyas primarily kartyaveerarjuna etal....after that he went to have penance......these kshatriyas were

Sree Rama : Sugreeva is Indra putra, Hanuman is vayu putra and so we have a lot of Deva amsas to help the Lord re establish dharma....for the first time we see people helping the Lord, is not the Lord capable of destroying everyone by himslef why need people? it is because he is born a manushya and he bows to the laws which govern manushyas....here also the complexities of the opposition increases Ravana is as great a scholar as he is a shiv bhakta..the canvas gets painted with more derivative colours ..but still it is a linear narration in many ways...

Sree Krishna : the most complex of all....he is the king maker, he is not the person doing the action..that is being done by the pandavas..what is being done and accomplished is the thought, a philosophy , a way of life ....there is not once scene in Mahabharatha in which there is an absence of Krishna ...there is no rakshasa is the real sense of the word...there is but a selfish blind man and his 101 children who wants aryavarta...it is one of the most complex understanding of human nature, the best,worst and the in between....it is said that if u have understood mahabharata u have understood human nature in the grandest and most folliest way poosible...

so why i told all this is that for u to understand anything, u need to know from the beginning .....and that was why the suggestion of parayana.....till u do that whole heartedly with an open mind, there will never be any light...it will only be darkness and more darkness.......

when sri rama went to naimisharanya as part of vanvas, there were lots of rishis and rishi patnis there...they all felt attracted to him and desired him..then sri rama told them...this avatar of mine i am in ek bharya vrat..in my next avatar as krishna, u will all be reborn as my gopikas with krishna....this was the past life karma of bhaktas carried over due to his blessings....so just imagine the demonic karmas?

Genesis 3:19 (King James Version):

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." i love these words and dust does not know if it was a man or woman

Dev,

edited the original a bit to give meaning to the response

regards,

rose

[Dev]

Hi Rosy Rose:
That was a good post on avatara but why should we have it under the thread Suicide. Just think over, Rose, if u dont mind and start a new one.

Dev