Can will power overcome fate?

[joyd]

you are not red and understood correctly.so go through my given point once again.

joyd.

[shivathmika]

It is said in Yoga vasishtam that free will and willpower work like two very powerful bulls fighting fiercely and which ever wins that will control the other . So in theory it is possible that will power if very strong can control the fate . But here the big if is the strength of will power . Ordinary mortals do not have such strong will power as to defeat the fate . One in millions , that too with extraordinary spiritual sadhana can claim that .

[Dashas]

@joyd, so I dont have any upachaya lords in upachaya houses. Does that mean I have no free will? (3rd lord in 12th, 6th and 11th lord in 1st, 10th lord in 11th)

[Nagaraj]

Dear Kopdi ,

YES FREE WILL EXISTS.

If it doesn't exists there is no point to know the future events if you cant change them.

All events will happen with a pattern in universe so , we learned to identify the events by looking the patterns of the planet movements from thousand years. so the history is very strong but it doesn't deny that u can not change the event . there are n number of examples in puranas that they changed their fate with free will and strong desire.

so ur desire should be strong enough to change the event-- if u think u have it by all means. then u can change it . as simple as that...

But all the people are not strong enough to execute free will , if your LL is weak , you need even more motivation to change the event . which is most of the people cant do it . that is what we can see from upachaya houses which mentioned above....in my opinion

these remedies /puja /chanting etc ..will help you to strengthen your desire/reach your goal. so that u can execute your free will..

Rgds , NGR

[pulkitsaxena1995]

I believe that free will is governed by exactly like law of gravitation. As a heavy mass body will not be easily moved due to force by a lighter mass body, a soul with higher consciousness will be less and less governed by astrology and more and more by free will.(i also believe that not physical body of planets but their consciousness governs astrology).

For example, souls in animals body have lower consciousness than souls in human body, and most of the life of animals is deterministic. I mean they don't have much scope in diversity of karmas performed.

[joyd]

@pls-For example, souls in animals body have lower consciousness than souls in human body..

snakes,ants,rose and some other species of animals have far more higher consciousness in detecting the dangers from the natural calamities like earthquakes,volcano eruptions,cyclones before 30 minutes of their arrival..where as we the humans boasting with higher consciousness cant predict without the help of technology and modern machineries.so almighty given some special things to each and every living being on this earth.your said freewill acts like or governed by law of gravitation and it is applicable equally on all on this earth without any partialities and selections.

joyd.

[pulkitsaxena1995]

Hi joyd,

I believe that the consciousness you are talking about is more on the physical level. I mean that animals are able to detect such calamities means that they are prone to any small scale disruption in nearby environment, keeping them always in a discomforting state of danger prone feeling. Imagine that humans were able to detect any slight flutter in their nearby environment, how discomforting will it be !!

I am speaking of a consciousness more on the spiritual level. I mean human life is the most ideal to evolve to higher dimensions of consciousness than a human. An animal will have a max to max scope to just evolve to human consciousness level in the next birth.

In bhagwat geeta, animals and other creatures have been referred to lower consciousness beings to which a human soul can also go to in next birth if tamas is more in this life. If rajas is more then, he will remain human only. To evolve to higher consciousness beings, satva gun should be cultivated.

[pulkitsaxena1995]

plz anyone feel free to disagree !! Its always good to have different viewpoints.

[kulu2007]

Someone in earlier posts has mentioned rope tide goat analogy of destiny, karmas and freewill as said by Ramakrishna Paramhansa. It more than sums-up everything. The second part of same post where goat is craving for river leaving bucket of water is noting but greed of human life. Paths and destinations are already defined for everyone, the only effort one needs to take is putting the step...now its upto one whether s/he wants to crawl, walk, run or just sit idle doing nothing...ultimately s/he will be responsible for whatever actions s/he takes while journey. For some patches in path you are bound to get hurt no matter how you walk. The irony is whether you have enough strong will power to exercise free will is also governed by planets in horoscope.
For that matter, if we take example of Ramakrishna Pramahansa himself... He was the one in millions who could use his freewill to do literally anything. He was an accomplished yogi with ashtasiddhis at his disposal. He ultimately suffered and died from throat cancer. Why didn't he use his free will/ power/ siddhis to cure himself which wasn't such an impossible task for him...

[joyd]

@Pls-I believe that the consciousness you are talking about is more on the physical level...hope you are well aware of a spider-snake-elephants higher consciousness.These 3 non-human earthlings spiritually incline towards lord shiva and attained kaivalya mukthi..

joyd.

[astrolover2017]

I feel even though western metaphysics talks about free will, I believe that planets control our minds and make us do things (good or bad) so that we can go through the pain or joy as per the dasa and bhukti. sometimes when i do something i think "did i do that, how did i even do it".

the person who is highly enlightened will be directly touch with the divine energy and bypass the planetary effects. its the majority of simple people who struggle with it.

[Dashas]

@astrolover2017, I think this way of thinking could be dangerous. Someone may murder and take no accountability for it, that the planets made him do that. And that if someone is doing torture, the other person should not revolt because it's due to their destiny?

Also, just a general question, if we came from divine and are supposed to merge back into divine (moksha), why in the first place did we decide to leave the Divine and take birth? It's like we leave our homeland and then must strive towards going back to our homeland. If we were divine ourselves (due to being part of the almighty), how come we didnt have the foresight to know the world is just an illusion?

[shivathmika]

The concept that animals do not have consciousness on par with human beings is rather wrong . How do we assess that . Is there any parameter by which it can be measured . Once a Dog was chased away by the inmates of Ramanasramam and Ramana maharshi told them that a mahayogi had come in that form and asked them to offer some food with respect and reverence . Soul does have any gender bias and species bias .

[rohit12345]

I would say that free-will can be exercised by people who are insensitive towards wrongdoing. if the person who watches wrong happening it's his karma and the person who does is also his own karma not destiny. But some things are destined to happen which you don't have any control over.

[pulkitsaxena1995]

Have you wondered what is the purpose of karmas ? What kind of variety in performing karmas do animals and other species (plants, fish etc) have ? Especially if you look at the organisms at micro-organic level such as bacteria.
Would you say that they have at par consciousness level with humans ?
Do they have a sense of right or wrong as good as humans ?
Do they act after carefully thinking through or just on their natural instincts ? Why humans are advised to not act on their instincts and control their desires (by control I mean not suppressing but overcoming) ? Do you think that animal body is very adept to overcome their desires ? Because ultimately desire is the root cause of all maya.

A mahayogi that came in form of a dog doesn't signify that soul in a dog's body has same consciousness as that of soul in human body. Did that yogi didn't require human body to became a mahayogi ? A mahayogi can take any body because he wont be overcome by desires that would try to control him when he takes dog's body. If we ordinary souls we allowed to shift into a dog body, then we will be lost is the desires of that body.
So only advanced souls have the capacity to shift bodies because they are at a level where physical desires wont control them in any body. An animal always has lesser control on its desires than humans be it of survival kind or any other kind.

Imagine a soul which has acted in this human birth just on its carnal desires. So in the next birth soul will try to take birth in which its carnal desires can be satisfied. Eg, maybe a chimpanzee.

What is the means to attain higher consciousness ?
I believe that higher consciousness can only be achieved by performing karmas, they may be of active kind like doing seva, or the inactive kind like meditating. Karmas which can lead to higher consciousness can only be done in a human body.

[shivathmika]

so it boils down to one thing . When the topic of consciousness comes , distinct separation has to be made about the entity about whom the statement is given . A blanket statement does not hold good in all cases . But it is not possible for ordinary mortals to know whether one is mahayogi or ordinary animal . That's why insulting or injuring any being is severely reprimanded in Hindu philosophy .

[joyd]

What is the means to attain higher consciousness ?

It is very very simple in terms of geeta charya krishna-

"seeing/feeling all in me and seeing/feeling me in all"..

THis is actual self soul awareness.Hope now you got a clear picture about your defined and narrated higher consciousness.you cant see only humans or yourself by side tracking the other beings that were your co-habitants on this earth.

joyd.

[shivathmika]

What is the means to attain higher consciousness
The concept or belief of achieving higher consciousness is not dependent on karma yoga or jnanayoga . It depends on doing one 's duty with out expecting any thing in return and leaving the fruits of action to the supreme power --- Anantha chethana .

[pulkitsaxena1995]

@joyd
Very true indeed. But a soul without a body can never elevate its consciousness. Don't you agree ?
Because "seeing/feeling all in god" will require a body. That is why souls repeatedly arrive at this material plane so through a body of a living being they can realize their true destination.

But what is the process of seeing/feeling god in all ?
Either by practising karma yoga, bhakti yoga or jnana yoga. - Bhagvat Geeta
But for all of them, overcoming all desires of the body and mind is a crucial step in the process.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, animals primal desires are stronger than that of humans.

I can't imagine many of other creatures having the ability to show for eg. selflessness. Dog is an example who maybe faithful to his master but simply because it has more consciousness than say, maybe fishes. Many fishes eat their own offsprings to erase their hunger which tells the strength of their primal needs and level of consciousness in them.

That's why I said human body is the most adept to gain higher consciousness.

I'm am not saying that other beings don't elevate to higher consciousness levels. Its just that their scope of elevation is restricted to human level. Human beings may fall to lower levels as well or other beings to human level. But human level will be an intermediate step in reaching higher consciousness than that of material plane.

[pulkitsaxena1995]

@shivathmika
Please read more about karma yoga. It is exactly what you quoted.

[shivathmika]

Who can say that animals can't do all that . It is a pointless argument which does not have any proof . Just because we can't see or understand a thing we can't brush it off . Manystories are which present the gratitude , responsibility , kindness , loyalty ,service of animals . Such level of committment is not seen in the human race only .Humans are the highest species of ingratitude who need extra effort to attain consciousness .The day animals start speking all these unfounded theories of them being inferior to humans would come out in vivid detail .

[pulkitsaxena1995]

@Shivathmika
In one of your earlier posts, you quoted from yoga vasistham. Please read the whole text in detail. Your statement that animals have at par consciousness with humans contradicts its content.

Quote me any one of the text or saying of any mahayogi who accepted that animals have at par consciousness with humans (I am not speaking of exceptions because even great yogis in human forms have had higher consciousness than those of devtas. But that doesn't mean that average humans like us have higher consciousness than devtas).

Tell me how a bacteria will gain consciousness. Don't just think from perspective of animals such as dog,cow etc. Because these animals are at higher consciousness levels than their counterparts.
Tell me how a mosquito or cockroach will show "gratitude , responsibility , kindness , loyalty ,service of animals" that you mentioned.

And how can you declare that humans are the highest species of ingratitude ? Looking at people in kaliyuga might give you that impression.
But go and treat an ill tiger without any precaution and 99% of the time, he will make you his meal and 100% if he is very hungry.
You are looking only at exceptions. Look from the whole animal kingdom perspective. What would a plant do to gain consciousness ? Does it have much free will ?

Every text or yogi has always referred animals as lower beings in terms of consciousness. But that doesnt mean that we weren't or can't be animals in our previous or next birth and so doesn't give us the right to be merciless to them.

But if you are willing to set aside all scriptures or teaching of great sages, then no point in any discussion on this "astrology" forum as astrology also has a base on the teachings of those same sages. Might well be that there is no god and all things about consciousness is just an illusion of our brain.

You talk of proof, but there isn't for anything related to consciousness and free will that can be shown externally. Every being that goes on a spiritual journey takes religious texts and teachings as the base for its journey.
Even gautam buddha didn't just go and sit under the bodhi tree and suddenly got enlightenment. He also roamed in various places and studied under various spiritual gurus for 6 years before he sat for dhyana.

[shivathmika]

Bacteria and cockroaches are not animals . Even in humans all are not at high level of consciousness . Consciousness is some thing which can be attained only in very rare cases . Astrology is divine science where all rules governing life are included . Just because we can't understand the actions of animals we can not say that those rules are not applicable to them . Gowthama Buddha did not get enlightenment with fasting , manthra japas , charities , remedial measures , pilgrimages , bathing in holy rivers or other means
of karma yoga . That shows none of theses things is needed for attaining consciousness , As far as free will and fate is concerned the statement given in yogavasistam pertains to one view where the idea is not to encourage non action . Every rule has an exception and every exception has a rule . That is beauty of dharma
and truth . Absolute truth is not confined to restrictive conditions .

[pulkitsaxena1995]

Bacteria and cockroaches are not animals .
-Yes they are not in technical terms from modern science perspective. But from the perspective of scriptures they and we all are jeev. Do you want to say that these bacteria and cockroach don't have consciousness ? On what basis are you sidelining these creatures ?

"Consciousness is some thing which can be attained only in rare cases".
- Consciousness is not a binary value which can be "achieved" or "not achieved". Every being has a certain level of consciousness. That level may go up or down. Achieving higher consciousness is not something can will happen only in rare cases. This happens birth after birth. Our consciousness level in next birth will be "more than" or "less than" that of our previous birth. Even indra dev is not at the ultimate level of consciousness.

"Just because we can't understand the actions of animals we can not say that those rules are not applicable to them ."
- I never said that rules don't apply to them. I only said that those rules will not be same as those of humans. Similar to the case that rules applicable on devtas will not be applicable to humans. A question paper for 1st class and 2nd class student is never the same. Its just that if a student is brilliant in his 1st class then he can also sit for 2nd class test.

When people say that gautama buddha reached enlightenment, it means that he only cleared the 1st class test of human consciousness. We dont know anything about other tests he might have to face in other realms.

I will quote a story here which I read to exemplify this.

In the Rig Veda there are 5 hymns constituting an important dialogue between Lord Indra and Sage Agastya that reflects the significance of traversing the evolutionary path of consciousness, that seems to serve as a crucial pre-requisite to understanding the true nature of the Supreme Absolute Reality (God).
The verses exemplify how sage Agastya, by the sheer force of his thoughts is breaking through the barriers of his mind, reaching the realm of God without first being developed as a fully functional being in all his levels of consciousness.
The eagerness to experience God gets the better of sage Agastya and his senses and he refuses to progressively surrender to the stepping stone (which in this case refers to Lord Indra) in his quest for God. At this point, sage Agastya gets pushed back by Indra who does not allow him to proceed to the realm of God.
Indra says-“that which is beyond time and space (God) cannot be known by that which is in time and space” (Agastya and other mortals like us).
Indra goes on to explain that it is the progressive transcendence (of ego-consciousness) through divine activities that will take a mortal towards the immortal truth. Sage Agastya thenceforth realizes his folly, surrenders his will to Indra and goes on to execute his mandated activities through Indra.

"Gowthama Buddha did not get enlightenment with fasting , manthra japas , charities , remedial measures , pilgrimages , bathing in holy rivers or other means of karma yoga ."
-Karma yoga is not of the above acts. It is simply performing every karma as a duty without any attachment or expectation of fruits of karmas.

Pancha koshas have been described in Taittiriya Upanishad which describes five koshas from gross to fine-
Annamaya
Pranamaya
Manomaya
Vigyanamaya
Anandamaya
On the basis of these consciousness levels are defined in different jeevas.

[shivathmika]

KNOWLEDGE obtained by reading the books does not contribute to consciousness . Arguments with that knowledge do not serve that purpose . you are free to come to a stand on this topic .