om
i am no authority on anything and definitely no yoda but just wish to, in this post, look at a few conditionings and the idea of "unlearning what we have learned"
I am grateful to this website although i havent been a member for long as it is wonderful to see different viewpoints and question my own.
i feel that by this questioning i either gain greater faith or am able to drop whatever is unneccessary in this mind of mine.
After all it is much easier to drop something than it is to hold onto it and dropping something, an idea, or conviction, in my case at least, helps me become more open-minded, weakens the ego and allows me to glimpse, if only momentary and only through the intellect what i would like to call as "Truth".
"to gain knowledge add things everyday, to gain wisdom remove things everyday"
lao tzu
Let me begin by saying i studied Vedanta somewhat formally with the idea of gaining Moksha. I had heard a little and i still hadnt seen the Truth.I had a lot of questions about why we are here, at the time. I also agreed with the concepts that there is an existence principle that pervades all, call it whatever you want and that becoming one with that was the "goal"
So the fact that i had read but still didn't understand or know made me think vedanta or knowledge of the self was like algebra. Maybe there was one part of the equation i was missing. Then the most remarkable thing happened. After studying systematically, Major, minor upanishads, Bhagavad Gita with Shankarabhashya and others like the works of Bhagavan Ramana we came to a text called Vedanta Sara. It went through the usual topics, gross subtle causal bodies, the fourth state, Mahavakyas and all of that. It questioned other philosphies like charvaka and such. After all that came the good part. (Please forgive me if i sound too technical or if i seem to have oversimplified.) There came a part about something called "Adyaropa and Apavada" For those of you who have studied Vedanta maybe your understanding of this concept is different then mine, but it is basically about adding superimpositions and then removing them.
It was like that in Vedanta when they built up a model and upon thinking and reflection the student finds a flaw in this theory and then they give a new model.
The models got higher and higher until i realized that as shastra has said, mind cannot go there. So beautifully Vedanta had removed the worldly superimpositions and given us new ones.
It was like all this study and theory building was just to show, yes the mind can find a flaw in any model, and then i saw the limitation of my mind.
Not like i realized the self or anything but i had a good laugh, in fact i laughed so hard that entire class on Building superimpositions and Removing them that it became contagious, teacher (my Aachaarya who i owe much that is considered good in me to) started laughing and others also started laughing. My question was no longer "why?"
So after seeing the limitation of mind what next? Does it mean to be effortless or wait for some grace? Does it mean to try to observe?
In some ways then its nice to go to a teaching that is direct like Maharshi Ramana's Who am i, even though it has been said in shastra in so many ways its so beautifully put in the teachings of Maharshi.
So who am i?
If mind is a flow of thoughts then we can break it down to subject and object. The object is dependant on the subject then we can say there is only the subject, I.
But where did it come from?
Why do i go about my life in a whirl of me?
I am sad, i am happy, i am annoyed. I don't know who that "I" is. I cannot find its origin.
Bhaja govindam has a verse that says
"Kastvam Ko'ham Kuta aayatah
kaa me janani ko me tatah
Iti paribhavaya sarvamasaaram
vishvam tyaktva swapnavichaaram
Who are you?
Who am i? from where did i come?
Who is my mother?
Who is my father?
Enquire this and leave this world of experience
that is without essence and a dream.
It's so strange how we take for granted that "I" am. Logically this thought called "I" seems quite baseless and illogical. Yet i still have it, am writing this and am
still seemingly trapped.
tejasvi navadhitamastu maa vidvishaavahai
yoda style
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roseyrose
Dear Suniti,
when all paths lead to one, why do not we also have one path ? i am always confused abt that...
anyways was very impressed...but why the title yoda?
regards,
rose
beautiful......very very well said....but if this has been the case why have we been given new models..is it because we as humanity is forced to invent or god's will acc to desha and kala...It was like that in Vedanta when they built up a model and upon thinking and reflection the student finds a flaw in this theory and then they give a new model.
The models got higher and higher until i realized that as shastra has said, mind cannot go there. So beautifully Vedanta had removed the worldly superimpositions and given us new ones.
It was like all this study and theory building was just to show, yes the mind can find a flaw in any model, and then i saw the limitation of my mind.
when all paths lead to one, why do not we also have one path ? i am always confused abt that...
anyways was very impressed...but why the title yoda?
regards,
rose
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suniti
Hi Rose
I like i said am not an authority but i think that the different models are to show the limitations of mind. We intellectually want to understand everything but the Self cannot be known. It cant be known because there then has to be a knower. There cannot be a knower because that makes the "truth" or "self" the object.
To quote a someone controversial but a valid point "TRUTH is a Pathless Land"
The title Yoda style is about yoda being the guru who says "you must unlearn what you have learned" .
thanks
suniti
I like i said am not an authority but i think that the different models are to show the limitations of mind. We intellectually want to understand everything but the Self cannot be known. It cant be known because there then has to be a knower. There cannot be a knower because that makes the "truth" or "self" the object.
To quote a someone controversial but a valid point "TRUTH is a Pathless Land"
The title Yoda style is about yoda being the guru who says "you must unlearn what you have learned" .
thanks
suniti
Hi Sunithi:
It is very difficult to get rid of 'I'ego totally- that is what every human is struggling for. Also to learn is easier than to unlearn what u have learnt. For eg> When I taught music to some people, some who have wrongly learnt, I told them to forget that, I corrected that but when they sang it the next day, the mistake continued and they could not correct it even after 100 times of repetition.
So unlearning is most difficult according to me. We can apply this to our character too. Suppose we are greedy, we are dishonest, we are short tempered, we are crazy and so on, we need to unlearn like a kid, come to neutral like in a scooter, then start doing things the right way as they we are new born kids, is it possible easily? What mistakes we do, we continue to do. we need to unlearn them too but it would take time, since first step is realisation, then correction, then intention to correct and then the actual practise. Hope I did not bore u
.
Dev
Hi Rosy Rose:
when all paths lead to one, why do not we also have one path ?
Yes, I have also wondered about this but it is God's creation. There is complexity, no simplicity since he likes to play.
So u can see as many humans as possible and the happenings in their life can or cannot be related to their nature and so on.
Dev
It is very difficult to get rid of 'I'ego totally- that is what every human is struggling for. Also to learn is easier than to unlearn what u have learnt. For eg> When I taught music to some people, some who have wrongly learnt, I told them to forget that, I corrected that but when they sang it the next day, the mistake continued and they could not correct it even after 100 times of repetition.
So unlearning is most difficult according to me. We can apply this to our character too. Suppose we are greedy, we are dishonest, we are short tempered, we are crazy and so on, we need to unlearn like a kid, come to neutral like in a scooter, then start doing things the right way as they we are new born kids, is it possible easily? What mistakes we do, we continue to do. we need to unlearn them too but it would take time, since first step is realisation, then correction, then intention to correct and then the actual practise. Hope I did not bore u
.Dev
Hi Rosy Rose:
when all paths lead to one, why do not we also have one path ?
Yes, I have also wondered about this but it is God's creation. There is complexity, no simplicity since he likes to play.
So u can see as many humans as possible and the happenings in their life can or cannot be related to their nature and so on.
Dev
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suniti
HI Devji
I agree with you in fact i have had similar experiences as i teach vedic chanting. But maybe what i meant was that holding onto something, like an idea about myself takes more effort than letting go of that idea. For instance holding onto a cup takes more effort than dropping the cup (speaking as a highly clumsy person i know this)
Also about unlearning things we have learned, sometimes we can drop the false idea by seeing correctly what do you think?
About the ego, im of the opinion that it is not really there, it is false so maybe by seeing properly it can be removed.
suniti
I agree with you in fact i have had similar experiences as i teach vedic chanting. But maybe what i meant was that holding onto something, like an idea about myself takes more effort than letting go of that idea. For instance holding onto a cup takes more effort than dropping the cup (speaking as a highly clumsy person i know this)
Also about unlearning things we have learned, sometimes we can drop the false idea by seeing correctly what do you think?
About the ego, im of the opinion that it is not really there, it is false so maybe by seeing properly it can be removed.
suniti
HI Suniti:
Just call me Dev.
In vedic teaching, there would be no compromises at all, it has to be perfect. What I meant was mistakes and our habits are stored in our memory and they get activated whenever we make attempts doing something. See a real short tempered person for eg finds it difficult to correct himself and can only become better with chanting and pariharas but the inherent quality shows up.
Also if u see, if we come across our own relatives, we like some and dislike some. Can we all of a sudden say from today I will forget all my dislikes and start afresh and have friendly relationship with them. It is just very difficult. Of course sometimes we receive shocks. For eg We presume a person to be our friend and well wisher but he back stabs us. Then our mind has to change its stand spontaneously, even that is difficult and it injures the mind.
an idea about myself takes more effort than letting go of that idea. For instance holding onto a cup takes more effort than dropping the cup
I was not replying to this, but what has been learnt needs to be unlearnt. So that is relavant when wrong things are learnt. Even in the path of philosophy, in yoga, I saw many people going to different gurus at different times and finally settle for one, till then their mind wavers, they are not able to follow one, they are unable to forget what they learnt and so on.
Anyway the cup analogy cannot be used for learning and unlearning. In the case of the cup, what u said is true.
Also about unlearning things we have learned, sometimes we can drop the false idea by seeing correctly what do you think?
It is easier said than done. Do u think it is easy. I have also known experts in dance and music and yoga, when someone has learnt from someone else wrongly, they tell him to forget everything, but he finds it difficult.
In fact, I came across a person when we went for Sadashiva Brahmendra vizha to sing. He sang few
songs. Then I asked him about his gurus. He mentioned two names and I asked him to sing two songs from each. One group of songs were perfect but the other full of mistakes. So I told him openly, he said, he had indicated that to his new guru who is trying to correct them but he said, instead of correcting, he would rather stop singing those since he cannot correct them since he would repeat those mistakes whenever asked to sing. It would be better he learns other songs and sings only those and leaves out songs from the first guru ie never sing those. It is because correction is so difficult. Learning new is easy.
If you teach two young students, one who has failed and the other who is new, it will be easier to teach the latter.
About the ego, im of the opinion that it is not really there, it is false so maybe by seeing properly it can be removed.
Ego is ego, it is not false, it is a true quality but unwanted according to me. If we write it on a paper or type it on the computer, we can erase them but we cannot remove ego from ourselves that easily.
Slowly we can try to and improve with time but how long it takes depends on the indicudual.
Dev
Just call me Dev.
In vedic teaching, there would be no compromises at all, it has to be perfect. What I meant was mistakes and our habits are stored in our memory and they get activated whenever we make attempts doing something. See a real short tempered person for eg finds it difficult to correct himself and can only become better with chanting and pariharas but the inherent quality shows up.
Also if u see, if we come across our own relatives, we like some and dislike some. Can we all of a sudden say from today I will forget all my dislikes and start afresh and have friendly relationship with them. It is just very difficult. Of course sometimes we receive shocks. For eg We presume a person to be our friend and well wisher but he back stabs us. Then our mind has to change its stand spontaneously, even that is difficult and it injures the mind.
an idea about myself takes more effort than letting go of that idea. For instance holding onto a cup takes more effort than dropping the cup
I was not replying to this, but what has been learnt needs to be unlearnt. So that is relavant when wrong things are learnt. Even in the path of philosophy, in yoga, I saw many people going to different gurus at different times and finally settle for one, till then their mind wavers, they are not able to follow one, they are unable to forget what they learnt and so on.
Anyway the cup analogy cannot be used for learning and unlearning. In the case of the cup, what u said is true.
Also about unlearning things we have learned, sometimes we can drop the false idea by seeing correctly what do you think?
It is easier said than done. Do u think it is easy. I have also known experts in dance and music and yoga, when someone has learnt from someone else wrongly, they tell him to forget everything, but he finds it difficult.
In fact, I came across a person when we went for Sadashiva Brahmendra vizha to sing. He sang few
songs. Then I asked him about his gurus. He mentioned two names and I asked him to sing two songs from each. One group of songs were perfect but the other full of mistakes. So I told him openly, he said, he had indicated that to his new guru who is trying to correct them but he said, instead of correcting, he would rather stop singing those since he cannot correct them since he would repeat those mistakes whenever asked to sing. It would be better he learns other songs and sings only those and leaves out songs from the first guru ie never sing those. It is because correction is so difficult. Learning new is easy.
If you teach two young students, one who has failed and the other who is new, it will be easier to teach the latter.
About the ego, im of the opinion that it is not really there, it is false so maybe by seeing properly it can be removed.
Ego is ego, it is not false, it is a true quality but unwanted according to me. If we write it on a paper or type it on the computer, we can erase them but we cannot remove ego from ourselves that easily.
Slowly we can try to and improve with time but how long it takes depends on the indicudual.
Dev
Hi Dev and others on this forum,
Dev, I think that you make a really good point when you say that the "first step is realisation, then correction, then intention". I don't think it is unlearning though. I think that is exactly what learning is and what Suniti means when she speaks of the new models. The ego prevents that growth in learning sometimes I believe.
"to gain knowledge add things everyday, to gain wisdom remove things everyday"
lao tzu
Dear Charu:
I believe the "things" that need to be removed are the attachments or importance we have to that knowledge like conditioning, judgement, pride, love and so on. What does that knowledge to for us at the end of the day if it doesn't propel us forward spiritually?
I agree with u.
I have at times rejected (unlearn) things that I have "learned" or to be accurate TOLD what to believe only to learn it on my own. To have a closer experience with models through my own experience and personal path in order to grow.
That is good but not many do it. For eg; when My professors would give notes, I would go to library and add to the notes that I already have while many would just have what he gives and would say, why should we take the trouble of reading extra? So drawing the analogy, many when told, follow the same procedure even if wrong. I also reject if I find it not good. But what I meant was I also included our perceptions about others, our qualities like anger, greed, lust etc. These are difficult to unlearn, ie when we have them, we need to unlearn, ie first come to neutral gear, ie assume that we dont know them at all, then we need to move with them as though they are new people. Because, if u are reminded of the previous encounters with them, ur hatred towards him will dominate ur thoughts. So here I said, totally forgetting connection with him, if u have to move as a newly found friend or relative, it is very difficult but still not impossible.
Dev
Dev, I think that you make a really good point when you say that the "first step is realisation, then correction, then intention". I don't think it is unlearning though. I think that is exactly what learning is and what Suniti means when she speaks of the new models. The ego prevents that growth in learning sometimes I believe.
"to gain knowledge add things everyday, to gain wisdom remove things everyday"
lao tzu
Dear Charu:
I believe the "things" that need to be removed are the attachments or importance we have to that knowledge like conditioning, judgement, pride, love and so on. What does that knowledge to for us at the end of the day if it doesn't propel us forward spiritually?
I agree with u.
I have at times rejected (unlearn) things that I have "learned" or to be accurate TOLD what to believe only to learn it on my own. To have a closer experience with models through my own experience and personal path in order to grow.
That is good but not many do it. For eg; when My professors would give notes, I would go to library and add to the notes that I already have while many would just have what he gives and would say, why should we take the trouble of reading extra? So drawing the analogy, many when told, follow the same procedure even if wrong. I also reject if I find it not good. But what I meant was I also included our perceptions about others, our qualities like anger, greed, lust etc. These are difficult to unlearn, ie when we have them, we need to unlearn, ie first come to neutral gear, ie assume that we dont know them at all, then we need to move with them as though they are new people. Because, if u are reminded of the previous encounters with them, ur hatred towards him will dominate ur thoughts. So here I said, totally forgetting connection with him, if u have to move as a newly found friend or relative, it is very difficult but still not impossible.
Dev
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suniti
Dear Dev
You had made some beautiful points and i was thinking about them. My first instinct was to run to shastra and say losing ego then introduces the topic of mental purity or the basic adhikari for self knowledge, But i dont want to run to shastra, i want to think for myself and understand your points.
First on that note about vedic chanting, i agree there can be no compromise and im not a very nice person when i teach .
I agree it is more difficult to unlearn than it is to learn and it is one of the seemingly most difficult things to get rid of the ego.
I am no authority on anything but i was thinking about what you said about maybe problems with family and problems with relatives.
In my own experience with relationship problems, whenever i get hurt or angry if i really look at that hurt or anger i can see that really it is some conditioning about myself or some ego that causes the anger. Sometimes when i see my ego in these things i let go.
Let go means whatever images of myself i have or whatever i think i deserve are all just me wanting some place in the world and also to preserve an idea of me.
I'm not sure whether thats right or wrong but it is what im doing, i try to see the i.
I think often of the etymology of the word Namah, "na mama it namah" In salutations to another i dont have an "i".
That where this is no "me" is namah.
The very high point you mentioned about there no need to judge the "i" as false, the "i" is and
thats it, was really very beautiful, i find myself losing another conditioning just thinking on that point, well said.
@ Charuji, well said about unlearning being removing the attachments and importance we place on knowledge
i appreciate you both for your understanding and helping me to understand my so called self
As I returned across the lands I'd known
I recognized the fields where I'd once played
I had to stop in my tracks for fear
Of walking on the mines I'd laid"
sting
suniti
tejasvinavadhitam astu maa vidvishaavahai
You had made some beautiful points and i was thinking about them. My first instinct was to run to shastra and say losing ego then introduces the topic of mental purity or the basic adhikari for self knowledge, But i dont want to run to shastra, i want to think for myself and understand your points.
First on that note about vedic chanting, i agree there can be no compromise and im not a very nice person when i teach
.I agree it is more difficult to unlearn than it is to learn and it is one of the seemingly most difficult things to get rid of the ego.
I am no authority on anything but i was thinking about what you said about maybe problems with family and problems with relatives.
In my own experience with relationship problems, whenever i get hurt or angry if i really look at that hurt or anger i can see that really it is some conditioning about myself or some ego that causes the anger. Sometimes when i see my ego in these things i let go.
Let go means whatever images of myself i have or whatever i think i deserve are all just me wanting some place in the world and also to preserve an idea of me.
I'm not sure whether thats right or wrong but it is what im doing, i try to see the i.
I think often of the etymology of the word Namah, "na mama it namah" In salutations to another i dont have an "i".
That where this is no "me" is namah.
The very high point you mentioned about there no need to judge the "i" as false, the "i" is and
thats it, was really very beautiful, i find myself losing another conditioning just thinking on that point, well said.
@ Charuji, well said about unlearning being removing the attachments and importance we place on knowledge
i appreciate you both for your understanding and helping me to understand my so called self
As I returned across the lands I'd known
I recognized the fields where I'd once played
I had to stop in my tracks for fear
Of walking on the mines I'd laid"
sting
suniti
tejasvinavadhitam astu maa vidvishaavahai
Dear Suniti:
Thanks.
Yes, in vedic chanting, there can be no compromise. Like u, im not a very nice person too when i teach.
I have taught slokas like Aditya hridayam, Vishnu Sahasranama etc to students and I would keep on correcting them. Also when I taught music, I would get really wild, even when he sang 250th time, I would say it is wrong, if it is. I have no patience in those and in several things, but I have too much patience in several things. I am unable to understand myself.
In fact, if I go for a concert and if they made mistakes, I would run away from there immediately. People used to mock at me saying my tolerance level is so low but really that is not ego, but that I know that and i am unable to be there. It is not arrogance or ego but just tolerance level.
Yes, ego if one can get rid of, then that is greatest thing one can achieve since that is the most difficult part. First and foremost, he should realise he has ego and then he should realise the need for shedding the ego and then work for it. Even realisation that one has ego itself is a good beginning, that itself will help one to go further towards shedding ego, I feel.
No one is an authority on anything. It is God who is. Anyway some are spiritually higher up in the ladder and I really admire them. They are unaffected by the surrounding which I am not. I would have to go a long way to reach their stage, I feel.
In my experience with relationship problems too, i can see that it is some conditioning about myself or ego that causes the anger. I am unable to compromise on certain issues and cannot become normal with them and sometimes stop talking all together. I am unable to change, however, I am able to shed the hatred and anger if any with time when I stop talking.
Let go means whatever images of myself i have or whatever i think i deserve are all just me wanting some place in the world and also to preserve an idea of me.
I feel it is OK to think that way since one cannot become totally ideal all of a sudden.
Na mama in Namaha, very well said, that itself means u are trying to shed ur ego.
i appreciate your inputs as above and they help in better understanding on these relatively vague and complex topics. No single person knows everything and we all learn from each other, provided we shed our ego and want to really learn from others and realising that the other person can also be alteast as knowledgable as we are. Of course, if we can think the other person as more knowledgable, then we have almost no ego, but on the contrary if we think we are most knowledgable, there is no point in even reading others views here since nothing will enter, our ego will block everything, would not allow any other opinions to enter. So keeping our mind cool and open for others inputs and incorporating others inputs sometimes rather than conditioning ourselves to our own ideas and thoughts all the time, would rather help us in this spiritual path, I feel.
Dev
Thanks.
Yes, in vedic chanting, there can be no compromise. Like u, im not a very nice person too when i teach.
I have taught slokas like Aditya hridayam, Vishnu Sahasranama etc to students and I would keep on correcting them. Also when I taught music, I would get really wild, even when he sang 250th time, I would say it is wrong, if it is. I have no patience in those and in several things, but I have too much patience in several things. I am unable to understand myself.
In fact, if I go for a concert and if they made mistakes, I would run away from there immediately. People used to mock at me saying my tolerance level is so low but really that is not ego, but that I know that and i am unable to be there. It is not arrogance or ego but just tolerance level.
Yes, ego if one can get rid of, then that is greatest thing one can achieve since that is the most difficult part. First and foremost, he should realise he has ego and then he should realise the need for shedding the ego and then work for it. Even realisation that one has ego itself is a good beginning, that itself will help one to go further towards shedding ego, I feel.
No one is an authority on anything. It is God who is. Anyway some are spiritually higher up in the ladder and I really admire them. They are unaffected by the surrounding which I am not. I would have to go a long way to reach their stage, I feel.
In my experience with relationship problems too, i can see that it is some conditioning about myself or ego that causes the anger. I am unable to compromise on certain issues and cannot become normal with them and sometimes stop talking all together. I am unable to change, however, I am able to shed the hatred and anger if any with time when I stop talking.
Let go means whatever images of myself i have or whatever i think i deserve are all just me wanting some place in the world and also to preserve an idea of me.
I feel it is OK to think that way since one cannot become totally ideal all of a sudden.
Na mama in Namaha, very well said, that itself means u are trying to shed ur ego.
i appreciate your inputs as above and they help in better understanding on these relatively vague and complex topics. No single person knows everything and we all learn from each other, provided we shed our ego and want to really learn from others and realising that the other person can also be alteast as knowledgable as we are. Of course, if we can think the other person as more knowledgable, then we have almost no ego, but on the contrary if we think we are most knowledgable, there is no point in even reading others views here since nothing will enter, our ego will block everything, would not allow any other opinions to enter. So keeping our mind cool and open for others inputs and incorporating others inputs sometimes rather than conditioning ourselves to our own ideas and thoughts all the time, would rather help us in this spiritual path, I feel.
Dev
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Abhijit Muhurta !!!
- Frequent Contributor
- Posts: 269
- Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Dear Sunithi...
My 2 cents....Any acquiring of any knowledge will only strengthen the ego. "Trying to understand intellectually " are all traps...! The stillness of the mind cannot be brought about by the mind. there are so many systems methods techniques....if they all worked we would have had enlightened ones by the thousands.
one can only see the futility of this search...and the capers of the mind.
Every realised soul has pointed the direction...it could be the gita..bible...quran...granth saheb...bramha sutra...or the recent ones have given phrases like "Who am I ? " "I am That" ...."Pathless land"..."choiceless awareness"....All these are mere pointers.
At the end...."If it Happens... it Happens ".....
and if and when it happens...there wont be a you left to know what happened !!!
Regards,
My 2 cents....Any acquiring of any knowledge will only strengthen the ego. "Trying to understand intellectually " are all traps...! The stillness of the mind cannot be brought about by the mind. there are so many systems methods techniques....if they all worked we would have had enlightened ones by the thousands.
one can only see the futility of this search...and the capers of the mind.
Every realised soul has pointed the direction...it could be the gita..bible...quran...granth saheb...bramha sutra...or the recent ones have given phrases like "Who am I ? " "I am That" ...."Pathless land"..."choiceless awareness"....All these are mere pointers.
At the end...."If it Happens... it Happens ".....
and if and when it happens...there wont be a you left to know what happened !!!
Regards,
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suniti
Dear Abhijitji
I agree completely. Intellectual pursuits can sometimes strenghthen the ego, and man that spiritual ego is even harder to get rid of then the first one!!
but let me ask you a question. Do you think its possible, that all this effort, of seeing the "i" and all that is irrelevant.
What i really want to ask is, do you think theres such a thing as "grace?"
thanks
om
suniti
I agree completely. Intellectual pursuits can sometimes strenghthen the ego, and man that spiritual ego is even harder to get rid of then the first one!!
but let me ask you a question. Do you think its possible, that all this effort, of seeing the "i" and all that is irrelevant.
What i really want to ask is, do you think theres such a thing as "grace?"
thanks
om
suniti
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milredr
Couldnt have been said better.......I totally agree with you. I feel there is a time for everything and when it has to happen it will. Human emotions are sometimes not easy to control. Ego is one such emotion. We have to be saints to get past that. As long as one realises and makes an attempt at reducing it, half the job is done.At the end...."If it Happens... it Happens ".....
and if and when it happens...there wont be a you left to know what happened !!!
As far as grace is concerned, i sure believe in it. Without God's grace, i wouldnt be where I am today. Every breathe that i take is thanks to God's grace. My two bits.
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Abhijit Muhurta !!!
- Frequent Contributor
- Posts: 269
- Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Dear Suniti,
All there is... is GRACE....
can we make the heart stop or start..?
That which keeps this body and mind going...will take care of everything.
When this fact gets rooted in one's mind then a sense of surrender will develop.
some peace and harmony prevails....( all though a short lived one )
True peace can never be found as long as the ego functions.
From our point of view...i go by the rule that the path choses you... and only Grace..can bring it about.
Regards
All there is... is GRACE....
can we make the heart stop or start..?
That which keeps this body and mind going...will take care of everything.
When this fact gets rooted in one's mind then a sense of surrender will develop.
some peace and harmony prevails....( all though a short lived one
) True peace can never be found as long as the ego functions.
From our point of view...i go by the rule that the path choses you... and only Grace..can bring it about.
Regards
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Abhijit Muhurta !!!
- Frequent Contributor
- Posts: 269
- Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Milred !
YOU STOLE "MY" WORDS !!!
YOU STOLE "MY" WORDS !!!
Hi Abhijit Muhurta:
Any acquiring of any knowledge will only strengthen the ego. "Trying to understand intellectually " are all traps...!
I know you have lot of sanctity since it is your time that is chosen for performing good events.
Anyway I differ with what u said above.
Always, the more I know, I realise that there is lot more that I need to know. When I know less, I assume I know everything. it is a fact which applies to all. I have experience this several times.
That is why half baked knowledge is dangerous since half baked person will always think he knows everything and will not take others concepts at all.
That is why true saints are highly realised souls who would have passed through several such stages
wherein they would have developed ego thinking they learnt everything when someone would have pointed out their mistake, then realising that they would have grown, this would have happened several times till they reached a stage where noone can really advise them or find fault with them so that they become true gurus for all or most people.
Dev
Any acquiring of any knowledge will only strengthen the ego. "Trying to understand intellectually " are all traps...!
I know you have lot of sanctity since it is your time that is chosen for performing good events.
Anyway I differ with what u said above.
Always, the more I know, I realise that there is lot more that I need to know. When I know less, I assume I know everything. it is a fact which applies to all. I have experience this several times.
That is why half baked knowledge is dangerous since half baked person will always think he knows everything and will not take others concepts at all.
That is why true saints are highly realised souls who would have passed through several such stages
wherein they would have developed ego thinking they learnt everything when someone would have pointed out their mistake, then realising that they would have grown, this would have happened several times till they reached a stage where noone can really advise them or find fault with them so that they become true gurus for all or most people.
Dev
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suniti
Hi all
does the fact there is grace apply to removing the ego?
does it mean there is not need of unlearning or any self effort?
if i stay the way i am will the ego be removed by kripa?
Will the self be attained without effort?
thanks im enjoying reading these various thoughts and the way you all are shedding light on this subject.
suniti
"Guru Kripa anjana payo mere bhai, Ram bina kachu dekhata nahi"
Sant Eknath
does the fact there is grace apply to removing the ego?
does it mean there is not need of unlearning or any self effort?
if i stay the way i am will the ego be removed by kripa?
Will the self be attained without effort?
thanks im enjoying reading these various thoughts and the way you all are shedding light on this subject.
suniti
"Guru Kripa anjana payo mere bhai, Ram bina kachu dekhata nahi"
Sant Eknath
Last edited by suniti on 20 Jan 2011, edited 1 time in total.
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roseyrose
Hello,
This is what i feel...
does the fact there is grace apply to removing the ego?
no....karmas have to be removed or burnt
does it mean there is not need of unlearning or any self effort?
that unlearning will happen only in a guru shishya parampara.....in this you will have to put ur efforts
even breathing is an effort....why shud i not just shut down breathing....so effort has to be defined mayne more precisely with bhakti or whatever term we all can choose....
if i stay the way i am will the ego be removed by kripa?
hmmm hard to say w/o knowing how far you are in the evolutionary chain
Will the self be attained without effort?
to get an educational degree there needs to be an effort and this is one of the greatest of them all....so effort is mandatory....kripa of guru...more efforts....kripa of ur ishta devata ..more fforts..chain goes on and on..
my thoughts.....
rose
This is what i feel...
does the fact there is grace apply to removing the ego?
no....karmas have to be removed or burnt
does it mean there is not need of unlearning or any self effort?
that unlearning will happen only in a guru shishya parampara.....in this you will have to put ur efforts
even breathing is an effort....why shud i not just shut down breathing....so effort has to be defined mayne more precisely with bhakti or whatever term we all can choose....
if i stay the way i am will the ego be removed by kripa?
hmmm hard to say w/o knowing how far you are in the evolutionary chain
Will the self be attained without effort?
to get an educational degree there needs to be an effort and this is one of the greatest of them all....so effort is mandatory....kripa of guru...more efforts....kripa of ur ishta devata ..more fforts..chain goes on and on..
my thoughts.....
rose
-
Abhijit Muhurta !!!
- Frequent Contributor
- Posts: 269
- Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Dev Sir
Acquiring knowledge for providing oneself and family with the basic ammenities is fine.
But this spiritual knowledge which you want to gain more and more...will lead you where sir ?
is it going to bring about any tangible difference to the way you function in life ?
if yes then please go ahead and amass all the knowledge you want.
There cannot be any humility in knowledge.
Knowledge is essentailly power...simple and straight...it means.."I Know.... you do not know "
A short story about a pandit trying to cross a river in a ferry...Speaks to the boat man...i have read all the 4 vedas...upanishads...astronomy...maths etc etc...your life is a waste sinse you do not know any of these. just then a storm started and the boat was about to capsize....so the boat man told the pandit....sir hope you have learnt swimming along with all the other knowledge because thats what will save you now !!! saying that he jumped into the river and swam to saftey...obviously the pandit who dint know swimming remained in the boat crestfallen.
As far as the realised ones are concerned....its like what happens when one touches a huge electric transformer....then the one who has touched it no longer remains...it is that Energy that operates through the shell called your body. That is direct experience....or direct knowledge....That is truth.
Till then Sir....whatever you or i say is mere repetition of what they have said....
Regards,
Acquiring knowledge for providing oneself and family with the basic ammenities is fine.
But this spiritual knowledge which you want to gain more and more...will lead you where sir ?
is it going to bring about any tangible difference to the way you function in life ?
if yes then please go ahead and amass all the knowledge you want.
There cannot be any humility in knowledge.
Knowledge is essentailly power...simple and straight...it means.."I Know.... you do not know "
A short story about a pandit trying to cross a river in a ferry...Speaks to the boat man...i have read all the 4 vedas...upanishads...astronomy...maths etc etc...your life is a waste sinse you do not know any of these. just then a storm started and the boat was about to capsize....so the boat man told the pandit....sir hope you have learnt swimming along with all the other knowledge because thats what will save you now !!! saying that he jumped into the river and swam to saftey...obviously the pandit who dint know swimming remained in the boat crestfallen.
As far as the realised ones are concerned....its like what happens when one touches a huge electric transformer....then the one who has touched it no longer remains...it is that Energy that operates through the shell called your body. That is direct experience....or direct knowledge....That is truth.
Till then Sir....whatever you or i say is mere repetition of what they have said....
Regards,
Abhijit Muhurt:
Just call me Dev.
Acquiring knowledge for providing oneself and family with the basic ammenities is fine.
But this spiritual knowledge which you want to gain more and more...will lead you where sir ?
is it going to bring about any tangible difference to the way you function in life ?
I agree with u, I was referring to knowledge of all kinds and since I am more into science and music than spirituality, I included all those here and said it in a general way.
There cannot be any humility in knowledge.
Knowledge is essentailly power...simple and straight...it means.."I Know.... you do not know "This I may still not agree, see the sloka
Vidya dadati vinayam -----
vinayam comes the more u learn. I feel a person who has learnt say the maximum possible, then he may have vinayam, but something less than that, then he may still have ego. Would u say Tyagaraja, Puradnaradasa, Muthusami deekshitar and Sadashiva Brahmendra had ego?
A short story about a pandit trying to cross a river in a ferry...Speaks to the boat man...i have read all the 4 vedas...upanishads...astronomy...maths etc etc...your life is a waste sinse you do not know any of these. just then a storm started and the boat was about to capsize....so the boat man told the pandit....sir hope you have learnt swimming along with all the other knowledge because thats what will save you now !!! saying that he jumped into the river and swam to saftey...obviously the pandit who dint know swimming remained in the boat crestfallen.
Yes I know this story. It really reminds us that we need practical intelligence too.
See if I say that I am very good in my subject and in music, and very bad in planning and making decisions and in dealing with people, investments and am very short tempered and more of an introvert, would u call me arrogant, egoistic or realistic person? Can u not say I know my strengths and weaknesses. I also accept I dont know many things, how am I then having ego?
As far as the realised ones are concerned....its like what happens when one touches a huge electric transformer....then the one who has touched it no longer remains...it is that Energy that operates through the shell called your body. That is direct experience....or direct knowledge....That is truth.
OK, then u mean other than the totally realised souls(may be God is the live wire u are talking about there) for all others however talented he may be, still ego is there. Till he gets grace from God, u mean he gains knowledge by himself, by reading scriptures, shastras, vedas etc. but then his ego grows as his knowledge grows but when he gets grace of God, it is then that true realisation occurs and ego is shortcircuited ie it becomes zero.
This may be quite convincing.
Dev
Just call me Dev.
Acquiring knowledge for providing oneself and family with the basic ammenities is fine.
But this spiritual knowledge which you want to gain more and more...will lead you where sir ?
is it going to bring about any tangible difference to the way you function in life ?
I agree with u, I was referring to knowledge of all kinds and since I am more into science and music than spirituality, I included all those here and said it in a general way.
There cannot be any humility in knowledge.
Knowledge is essentailly power...simple and straight...it means.."I Know.... you do not know "This I may still not agree, see the sloka
Vidya dadati vinayam -----
vinayam comes the more u learn. I feel a person who has learnt say the maximum possible, then he may have vinayam, but something less than that, then he may still have ego. Would u say Tyagaraja, Puradnaradasa, Muthusami deekshitar and Sadashiva Brahmendra had ego?
A short story about a pandit trying to cross a river in a ferry...Speaks to the boat man...i have read all the 4 vedas...upanishads...astronomy...maths etc etc...your life is a waste sinse you do not know any of these. just then a storm started and the boat was about to capsize....so the boat man told the pandit....sir hope you have learnt swimming along with all the other knowledge because thats what will save you now !!! saying that he jumped into the river and swam to saftey...obviously the pandit who dint know swimming remained in the boat crestfallen.
Yes I know this story. It really reminds us that we need practical intelligence too.
See if I say that I am very good in my subject and in music, and very bad in planning and making decisions and in dealing with people, investments and am very short tempered and more of an introvert, would u call me arrogant, egoistic or realistic person? Can u not say I know my strengths and weaknesses. I also accept I dont know many things, how am I then having ego?
As far as the realised ones are concerned....its like what happens when one touches a huge electric transformer....then the one who has touched it no longer remains...it is that Energy that operates through the shell called your body. That is direct experience....or direct knowledge....That is truth.
OK, then u mean other than the totally realised souls(may be God is the live wire u are talking about there) for all others however talented he may be, still ego is there. Till he gets grace from God, u mean he gains knowledge by himself, by reading scriptures, shastras, vedas etc. but then his ego grows as his knowledge grows but when he gets grace of God, it is then that true realisation occurs and ego is shortcircuited ie it becomes zero.
This may be quite convincing.
Dev
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Abhijit Muhurta !!!
- Frequent Contributor
- Posts: 269
- Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Check out the link....
cool video which sums it all up ... !!!
http://71.254.156.46/consciousness56k.asx
regards,
cool video which sums it all up ... !!!
http://71.254.156.46/consciousness56k.asx
regards,
-
Abhijit Muhurta !!!
- Frequent Contributor
- Posts: 269
- Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Dev...Nature has a mixed bag....every now and then it throws new gems....best part is... one cannot be compared to another. cause each one is unique...Would u say Tyagaraja, Puradnaradasa, Muthusami deekshitar and Sadashiva Brahmendra had ego?
Thats why i always say the path chooses you !!!
