Dear friends,
Does free will really exists? I suppose the answer to that is a big NO. Everything is predestined and nothing can materialize if it is not destined.
Context: Recently I graduated with an MBA degree from a top 25 business school in the US; globally it is ranked in the top 100. In fact, it is ranked higher than all of the IIMs back in India. I worked full time during the coursework and although, I was technically part-time, I took more or less the same number of courses per semester as the full time students. I still managed to get A grades in most of the subjects if not in all of them. I worked nearly 70-80 hours per week, deprived myself of all comforts and did not take a day of vacation.
For the last 11 years, I have been working as a IT contractor at various client places. I am currently looking for a management role; all conversations with potential employers end the moment I say I do not have permanent residency or green card. I have been in the US for close to 13 years now and what ever I could do to get the elusive GC, I have done. Specifically, I am through with 2 out of the 3 steps of the GC process; the last step is not in my control. It depends on the immigrant visa availability which is controlled by the USCIS. Complicating matters, I do not even know when I will be getting the GC due to lack of transparency of the USCIS. The way priority dates are progressing in the monthly visa bulletins, it is safe to say it will take at least another decade or so before I get my GC.
My current employer is subtly nudging me to continue what I am doing currently. Now a note regarding my dislike for IT roles. I absolutely do not like programming any more. It pays my bills but it does not give me any job satisfaction whatsoever. Every day I drag myself to work. I am in a conflict with myself; my mind says something but my heart says just the opposite as I am naturally inclined to a managerial role.
In short, I am not able to pursue my career goals in the US because of issues which are out of my control. In the last few days, I have become very depressed and ready to "give up". I don't think I can do anything more to alleviate the situation for it is out of my control. The situation is really hopeless.
This brings us to the moot question...Does free will really exists? I know this question is as old as astrology itself. I encourage the esteemed members of this forum to provide their views. Please note that it is not my intention to have my chart analyzed in this section of the forum and so am not posting my birth details here.
Regards
Rajath
Free will or Destiny? Destiny off course
Forum rules
READ Forum-Wide Rules and Guidelines NOTICE: OFFENSIVE POSTS WILL BE DELETED, AND OFFENDERS WILL HAVE ALL POSTS MODERATED.
READ Forum-Wide Rules and Guidelines NOTICE: OFFENSIVE POSTS WILL BE DELETED, AND OFFENDERS WILL HAVE ALL POSTS MODERATED.
@Dev,
There is really nothing that is under our control...makes me wonder if freewill is just an illusion. Life without freewill is not worth it. I mean whats the point of working hard and trying to get to your goals if destiny only prevails.
To hell with freewill...lets sit with our arms crossed and let destiny play out its part.
Today is the day...I have given up on hardwork and freewill...I am done with it.
There is really nothing that is under our control...makes me wonder if freewill is just an illusion. Life without freewill is not worth it. I mean whats the point of working hard and trying to get to your goals if destiny only prevails.
To hell with freewill...lets sit with our arms crossed and let destiny play out its part.
Today is the day...I have given up on hardwork and freewill...I am done with it.
Yes, I do feel nothing that is under our control. Freewill may be just an illusion. We ma think we are planning but may be it is predetermined.
We will probably not sit with our arms crossed since it is still the destiny that plays out its part ie it is predetermined that we would do something whether we know about predetermined fate or not.
We will probably not sit with our arms crossed since it is still the destiny that plays out its part ie it is predetermined that we would do something whether we know about predetermined fate or not.
rajath25 wrote:@Dev,
There is really nothing that is under our control...makes me wonder if freewill is just an illusion. Life without freewill is not worth it. I mean whats the point of working hard and trying to get to your goals if destiny only prevails.
To hell with freewill...lets sit with our arms crossed and let destiny play out its part.
Today is the day...I have given up on hardwork and freewill...I am done with it.
Rajath - This reply has nothing to do with astrology, as I dont know much about that.
But for the situation you posted, there are still other avenues
1. marry a citizen and get a GC thru matrimony.
2. work outside in a company for 2 year, come back using L1 in same company and apply in Eb1c! and get the GC.
3. get GC thru investor visa.
4. start working on PhD, publish papers and reapply under eb1.
5. sudden date fwd movement is possible (ofcourse not freewill, beyond your control, govt decision making level) and you might end up with a GC.
So it depends on whether you can take the risk/decision or not. Every decision can have possibilities(pros) or impracticality(cons) (eg you might be already married to an Indian, so how can you marry a USC - not possible), hope you get the point.
Thinking about the options available and being able to utilize it could also be pre-destined. Why do only some people do it and the rest dont? There is a time to reach a point - for some it is fast, for others it takes more time and gives some lessons.
It will work out in the end.
But for the situation you posted, there are still other avenues
1. marry a citizen and get a GC thru matrimony.
2. work outside in a company for 2 year, come back using L1 in same company and apply in Eb1c! and get the GC.
3. get GC thru investor visa.
4. start working on PhD, publish papers and reapply under eb1.
5. sudden date fwd movement is possible (ofcourse not freewill, beyond your control, govt decision making level) and you might end up with a GC.
So it depends on whether you can take the risk/decision or not. Every decision can have possibilities(pros) or impracticality(cons) (eg you might be already married to an Indian, so how can you marry a USC - not possible), hope you get the point.
Thinking about the options available and being able to utilize it could also be pre-destined. Why do only some people do it and the rest dont? There is a time to reach a point - for some it is fast, for others it takes more time and gives some lessons.
It will work out in the end.
@Dev,
Destiny WINS...Freewill does not stand a chance.
@vee3,
The most feasible option among the ones listed you have listed in option 5 "sudden date fwd movement is possible (of course not freewill, beyond your control, govt decision making level) and you might end up with a GC." That as you have rightly indicated, is not in my control.
Due to various reasons, the other 4 options are highly impossible if not improbable....the chances of any of the 4 options materializing is close to nill.
Once again, Destiny WINS...lets give up on free will...no point in working hard and trying to get ahead in life....cuz Destiny and Destiny only prevails.
Destiny WINS...Freewill does not stand a chance.
@vee3,
The most feasible option among the ones listed you have listed in option 5 "sudden date fwd movement is possible (of course not freewill, beyond your control, govt decision making level) and you might end up with a GC." That as you have rightly indicated, is not in my control.
Due to various reasons, the other 4 options are highly impossible if not improbable....the chances of any of the 4 options materializing is close to nill.
Once again, Destiny WINS...lets give up on free will...no point in working hard and trying to get ahead in life....cuz Destiny and Destiny only prevails.
Rajath:
Yes. Absolutely right. I wrote a long mail and the power was off before I could save.
I have been suffering much more than what I have sinned now, like if we take sin as a number 10, suffering is 10 power 25. So I have to assume I have sinned a lot earlier because I cannot say I have sinned a lot directly as I dont know what I was in the last few janmas. Pariharas can give some solace but the suffering we have to go thro and cant escape. I am amidst people in higher posts who know less than 1 % of what I know. Imagine what and how I would feel? It is horrible.
May be I was too arrogant in the past lives and used it to punish people and got the illwill of many.
Yes. Absolutely right. I wrote a long mail and the power was off before I could save.
I have been suffering much more than what I have sinned now, like if we take sin as a number 10, suffering is 10 power 25. So I have to assume I have sinned a lot earlier because I cannot say I have sinned a lot directly as I dont know what I was in the last few janmas. Pariharas can give some solace but the suffering we have to go thro and cant escape. I am amidst people in higher posts who know less than 1 % of what I know. Imagine what and how I would feel? It is horrible.
May be I was too arrogant in the past lives and used it to punish people and got the illwill of many.
I believe, we can change at least some part ( may not completely) destiny with free will /Parihara. Maharshi Parasha are Garga told if we cant change our bad karma or destiny then there is no need to practice astrology. after all what is the need to know which can not be changed ? The question is, is our Parihara/karma is right enough or strong enough to change the destiny or speed up to get our results? Maharishis already given lot of pariharas to specific combinations and cases.
If nothing is in our control, do pariharas with complete faith. that will give you good results.
Rgds, Nag
If nothing is in our control, do pariharas with complete faith. that will give you good results.
Rgds, Nag
Yes, actually there are grave sins for which no pariharas will work, ie killing cows, hurting brahmins, murder, rape etc. but then some thing which gets delayed like getting a job, marriage etc can happen quicker with pariharas but then for some even with pariharas, it will not work. If so he might have been responsible for some grave sin in the past.
I have often pondered this question. What if you throwing your arms in the air and giving up is part of your destiny and if you were to cross your arms and sit in one spot, would destiny ultimately push you to move even without outer forces intervening? My personal belief is that any freewill we apply, it only skims the top of the surface of our destiny.
Destiny decides the amount of free will that one assumes be has.
The post from Rajath made me wonder. I have never bee to the US nor did I have the educational and other accomplishments he could boast of (including that regular job to pay your bills). And yet here he is throwing up on life ! This is my destiny teaching me some valuable lessons.
The post from Rajath made me wonder. I have never bee to the US nor did I have the educational and other accomplishments he could boast of (including that regular job to pay your bills). And yet here he is throwing up on life ! This is my destiny teaching me some valuable lessons.
@ Nagaraj
Regarding the Pariharas given by Maharshi Parasara what struck me is that they are meant to mitigate the sufferings to a tolerable limit, and it is not as if, if you do the pariharas, your worldly desires would be met. Like - If you are going to have a Maraka dasa, you might have to prepared to face death or deathlike suffering. Now the Pariharas if properly done will help lessen the suffering. In the dasa you might also see some worldly desires satisfied, but that could be due to the routine course of karma manifesting. I think the goal of the Pariharas was to reduce the suffering to such limits as would help one spend his life contemplating on God undistractedly.
Regarding the Pariharas given by Maharshi Parasara what struck me is that they are meant to mitigate the sufferings to a tolerable limit, and it is not as if, if you do the pariharas, your worldly desires would be met. Like - If you are going to have a Maraka dasa, you might have to prepared to face death or deathlike suffering. Now the Pariharas if properly done will help lessen the suffering. In the dasa you might also see some worldly desires satisfied, but that could be due to the routine course of karma manifesting. I think the goal of the Pariharas was to reduce the suffering to such limits as would help one spend his life contemplating on God undistractedly.
Last edited by hari766 on 18 Jul 2016, edited 2 times in total.
-
ChandraLagna
- Site Administrator
- Posts: 2428
- Joined: 17 Apr 2011
And your post, Hari, made me, and maybe others as well ponder on life's lessons. Too often we lose sight of what we have. Being grateful for what one has is a blessing in itself.hari766 wrote: This is my destiny teaching me some valuable lessons.
--भज गोविन्दं... भज गोविन्दं...गोविन्दं भज, मूढमते --
With Regards,
ChandraLagna
With Regards,
ChandraLagna
A person just a graduate with a routine job with regular normal income from a middle class or even lower middle class family who has never been abroad but lives with parents in a normal house with just enough money to spend, not much not less, can be happier than a person much more educated, more rich and so on. So one need not wonder how the other person is frustrated. He could have higher education, more money but more problems also along with it. The former person may have minimum problems which can easily be tackled. Only feeling he may have is to become richer, go abroad and all these can also materialise. But then, he could definitely be happier with almost no problems.
I am not referring to anything of this forum but a general thing.
Sometimes the more educated and well employed and richer person has more and more problems than the less educated relatively poorer and just with normal income and employment has. Sometimes, the former even pleads to God, 'you gave me everything but peace of mind. I just want peace of mind and not all these. Ie you could have given me just normal education, normal job, normal income and so on, I would have been happier'. He talks less due to his own misery. Over all this, the other person thinks that he is egoistic and arrogant though he wants to become like the other person if given a chance.
So it is each individual's horoscope that makes him what he is.
Sometimes the more educated and well employed and richer person has more and more problems than the less educated relatively poorer and just with normal income and employment has. Sometimes, the former even pleads to God, 'you gave me everything but peace of mind. I just want peace of mind and not all these. Ie you could have given me just normal education, normal job, normal income and so on, I would have been happier'. He talks less due to his own misery. Over all this, the other person thinks that he is egoistic and arrogant though he wants to become like the other person if given a chance.
So it is each individual's horoscope that makes him what he is.
@ Dev,
What you call “problem” is, in itself, often perception-based. I am not referring here to anything that could be life threatening etc. Leaving those aside, it can’t be said, that one person (as you say, more educated, more rich etc) could/would have more problems and another, less. With all people, problems (ie, in their individual perception) as well as sources of happiness exist side by side.
What you call “problem” is, in itself, often perception-based. I am not referring here to anything that could be life threatening etc. Leaving those aside, it can’t be said, that one person (as you say, more educated, more rich etc) could/would have more problems and another, less. With all people, problems (ie, in their individual perception) as well as sources of happiness exist side by side.
@ Rajath,rajath25 wrote:" he could boast of"
Not for a moment did I try to boast or even think of boasting when I presented the current situation I fine myself in. Honestly I am offended by the aforementioned comment....really am.
Regards
Rajath
I said “he COULD boast of”, and not “he BOASTs of”. The meaning is “he could have a claim to”. Pls try reading my message once again keeping this in mind.
Last edited by hari766 on 28 Jul 2016, edited 1 time in total.
@ Dev,
Yes, sometimes it’s likely that the more educated, well employed persons have lesser peace of mind and feels more miserable. But I have seen that there is no correlation between the two, ie all those accomplishments and having mental peace. So as you say, if the former pleads to God “ you could have given me just normal education, normal job, normal income and so on, then I would have been happier”, that is only a reflection of his lack of wisdom. Certainly, one’s life is not in his hands. A lot is dictated by circumstances beyond our control. That said, one has the responsibility to learn from the experiences of oneself as well as others. I feel, that’s what makes a man stand out, one has to truly open his eyes and look around and draw conclusions. You say, the other person wants to become like the materially rich person, and I agree, that’s common, because material wealth goes a long way in making our worldly life smooth. At the same time, if one looks around, one sees so many persons who are materially rich, but also prone to quick anger, depression, various acts of boorishness etc. I suppose, those are meant to teach us that merely being materially rich or educationally accomplished, is not going to be sufficient for mental peace, something is missing and that’s extremely important. At least, this much, without reading a word of philosophy, one could easily decipher from these experiences.
Yes, sometimes it’s likely that the more educated, well employed persons have lesser peace of mind and feels more miserable. But I have seen that there is no correlation between the two, ie all those accomplishments and having mental peace. So as you say, if the former pleads to God “ you could have given me just normal education, normal job, normal income and so on, then I would have been happier”, that is only a reflection of his lack of wisdom. Certainly, one’s life is not in his hands. A lot is dictated by circumstances beyond our control. That said, one has the responsibility to learn from the experiences of oneself as well as others. I feel, that’s what makes a man stand out, one has to truly open his eyes and look around and draw conclusions. You say, the other person wants to become like the materially rich person, and I agree, that’s common, because material wealth goes a long way in making our worldly life smooth. At the same time, if one looks around, one sees so many persons who are materially rich, but also prone to quick anger, depression, various acts of boorishness etc. I suppose, those are meant to teach us that merely being materially rich or educationally accomplished, is not going to be sufficient for mental peace, something is missing and that’s extremely important. At least, this much, without reading a word of philosophy, one could easily decipher from these experiences.
Hari
Yes, Hari, actually it is not lack of wisdom on the part of the educated person. He may well be aware but due to suffering, he pleads to God but that does not mean he is not aware of it.
In fact every one of us when we suffer feel that the suffering would disappear by pariharas or offering prayers to God and so on.
The normal person also probably knows that each individual is governed by his own fate, his own papa punya karmas carried over from several janmas. I may love my mother to the extent that I would want to share 50% of her health problems but God would not allow me to. So each individual has to face what ever he is destined to.
Sometimes we forget and we try to sink in this samsara not able to come out of it. The awareness of reality does not exist eternally in any one of us, if that were there, we would have become saints. Every now and then we realize reality but then again fall into samsara.
As you say, material wealth goes a long way in making our worldly life smooth but this is until the time we are short of it. The same person who becomes materially rich later on, feels that material wealth is not the one which has made his life smooth but in fact, his life was better when he was short of it. So realization comes later when you experience both. Initially he is poor and so wants to become rich at any cost thinking that would make him happy but later, he realizes richness could not bring happiness, it could only give him more money to buy things needed but not happiness. He could never purchase happiness with all the money he has, he realizes only then.
So inner peace is the one which one has to have or bring it within him which is not dependent on money.
Yes, these are the things one learns from experiences but it depends on how much of experiences he has had in a given time to bring about change in himself.
Yes, Hari, actually it is not lack of wisdom on the part of the educated person. He may well be aware but due to suffering, he pleads to God but that does not mean he is not aware of it.
In fact every one of us when we suffer feel that the suffering would disappear by pariharas or offering prayers to God and so on.
The normal person also probably knows that each individual is governed by his own fate, his own papa punya karmas carried over from several janmas. I may love my mother to the extent that I would want to share 50% of her health problems but God would not allow me to. So each individual has to face what ever he is destined to.
Sometimes we forget and we try to sink in this samsara not able to come out of it. The awareness of reality does not exist eternally in any one of us, if that were there, we would have become saints. Every now and then we realize reality but then again fall into samsara.
As you say, material wealth goes a long way in making our worldly life smooth but this is until the time we are short of it. The same person who becomes materially rich later on, feels that material wealth is not the one which has made his life smooth but in fact, his life was better when he was short of it. So realization comes later when you experience both. Initially he is poor and so wants to become rich at any cost thinking that would make him happy but later, he realizes richness could not bring happiness, it could only give him more money to buy things needed but not happiness. He could never purchase happiness with all the money he has, he realizes only then.
So inner peace is the one which one has to have or bring it within him which is not dependent on money.
Yes, these are the things one learns from experiences but it depends on how much of experiences he has had in a given time to bring about change in himself.
hari766 wrote:@ Dev,
Yes, sometimes it’s likely that the more educated, well employed persons have lesser peace of mind and feels more miserable. But I have seen that there is no correlation between the two, ie all those accomplishments and having mental peace. So as you say, if the former pleads to God “ you could have given me just normal education, normal job, normal income and so on, then I would have been happier”, that is only a reflection of his lack of wisdom. Certainly, one’s life is not in his hands. A lot is dictated by circumstances beyond our control. That said, one has the responsibility to learn from the experiences of oneself as well as others. I feel, that’s what makes a man stand out, one has to truly open his eyes and look around and draw conclusions. You say, the other person wants to become like the materially rich person, and I agree, that’s common, because material wealth goes a long way in making our worldly life smooth. At the same time, if one looks around, one sees so many persons who are materially rich, but also prone to quick anger, depression, various acts of boorishness etc. I suppose, those are meant to teach us that merely being materially rich or educationally accomplished, is not going to be sufficient for mental peace, something is missing and that’s extremely important. At least, this much, without reading a word of philosophy, one could easily decipher from these experiences.
-
haricharan
- Registered User
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 17 May 2012
we can try to obtain something - that's freewill (karmaneva adikareste)
we may get it or may not - that's Destiny (ma phaleshu kadachana )
if we did not get what we wanted , would it mean there is no freewill ?
keep trying with freewill, and wait for fruits. If something does not work, try another thing
I know easier said than done
All above I said is old wisdom, nothing new
we may get it or may not - that's Destiny (ma phaleshu kadachana )
if we did not get what we wanted , would it mean there is no freewill ?
keep trying with freewill, and wait for fruits. If something does not work, try another thing
I know easier said than done All above I said is old wisdom, nothing new
Forgiveness + Tolerance + Patience = Happiness
-
haricharan
- Registered User
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 17 May 2012
Agree but the fate was also created by us only through the actions that we performed out of our freewill in the past. My actions of today are building my fate of future. Actions are seeds and fate is fruits. There has to be some time in between before actions (seeds) fructify. And that creates all the illusion or Maya
Forgiveness + Tolerance + Patience = Happiness
-
Crystalpages
- Frequent Contributor
- Posts: 316
- Joined: 30 Jan 2014
- Location: Rockcliffe
One aspect that astrologers wonder about is if this "free-will" shows up in the astrological information matrix. If it does then wouldn't that be 'fated'/pre-destined?haricharan wrote:Agree but the fate was also created by us only through the actions that we performed out of our freewill in the past. My actions of today are building my fate of future. Actions are seeds and fate is fruits. There has to be some time in between before actions (seeds) fructify. And that creates all the illusion or Maya
It is possible that some individuals have a higher potential for exercising free-will. Such likelihood perhaps reflects destiny even though the specific act/s of free will might represent new karma? Would sure be nice if someone actually knew all this through direct-personal knowledge in the true sense of knowing, and willing to share...!
Rohiniranjan
Again if the free will is already decided by God as our fate, where does free will come into the picture, it appears as free will to us but is actually fate already decided by God.
It is true that my actions of today are building my fate of future. but if my actions today are itself a result of my fate, it is my fate now which decides my future fate and there is no free will. So free will itself becomes illusion or Maya
It is true that my actions of today are building my fate of future. but if my actions today are itself a result of my fate, it is my fate now which decides my future fate and there is no free will. So free will itself becomes illusion or Maya
haricharan wrote:Agree but the fate was also created by us only through the actions that we performed out of our freewill in the past. My actions of today are building my fate of future. Actions are seeds and fate is fruits. There has to be some time in between before actions (seeds) fructify. And that creates all the illusion or Maya
