Dispositor of the Dispositor?

[tylorechandra]

The referred chart appears to be very weak. Lagna occupied by Ketu, Venus in Gandanta, Mercury and Jupiter in balyavastha, Mars in Mrityu bhaga and lagna lord Saturn combust. No benefic in Kendras, No malefics in upachayas and Moon isolated doesn't add any strength to the chart. Coming to a conclusion regarding exaltation and debilitation of planets with such a chart as an example, doesn't appear correct to me. Of course, others may differ.

TKC

[elipsis]

Yeah right. Everybody take a look at George Clooney's chart. He ought to be poverty ridden by the above logic.

6th May 1961, 2.58, Lexington, KY USA

[tylorechandra]

Well. This chart also has Ketu in Lagna and no benefic planet in Kendras. But here, Venus is strong, Mars and Sun (with Mercury as a malefic by association) in upachayas. Saturn, though Lagna lord and in the 12th, is in its own house and moves to Lagnamsa in navamsa. Jupiter and Mars are both having neechabhanga yoga. No planet is poor in avastha except Mercury and, to some extent, Moon. The dasa sequence has been favorable so far. Jupiter’s dasa must have been good since this activates the 4th and 9th lord Venus placed in the 2nd, unafflicted by any malefic influence except that of Saturn who, in any case, is the Lagna lord. This chart has a number of positives.

The native is susceptible to accidents. The current dasa of Saturn should be watched.

TKC

[elipsis]

You see what you want to see, if you didn't know who he was you would never have guessed he would be famous and rich. Its human nature to appreciate successful people with whatever information at their disposal, turn their negatives into a positive framework, laud them to skies and even attribute Godly qualities. This lousy habit of explaining away anything with a dozen inconsistent formulas has led to decline of vedic astrology and will continue further into the future. As far as I am concerned I have made my views clear on this topic.

Regards

[rathore]

The chart with Lagna lord Saturn combust is overridden with poverty yogas including one with Venus as a yoga forming planet while LL itself is involved in a a number of them. But who wants to look for that (that's too much work) when everything can be explained away with easy Astrology of a single planet show of combustion, exaltation, MB, you name it. At times an imagined circus of all this. Anybody wanting to take a proper look, start with the penury chapters & then work out the stronger yogas that override others. But its work.

[tylorechandra]

All valid points. Everyone is absolutely free to have convictions. The basis can be anything - knowledge through studies, experience or own research. No problem at all.

TKC

[VioletTwilight]

Yeah right. Everybody take a look at George Clooney's chart. He ought to be poverty ridden by the above logic.

6th May 1961, 2.58, Lexington, KY USA

I think the comparison of two charts with same lagna, and position of Venus in Rasi Chakra seems to support the order to importance to be:
Bhava, Bhavesh, Karaka, dristi.

For the first chart, fourth house has Saturn and Sun (two malefics), with Saturn being in friends house and Sun being in enemy's house. Karaka was in MKS and no Parasari dristi to the house.
Therefore there was more of a Saturn influence (Native mentions that his mother had longevity).

For the second chart, fourth house is empty, karaka is still weak, but has Jupiter dristi. Therefore, this chart did better in terms of 4th house significations. (Clooney's mother is a beauty queen)

In both charts, the exalted Venus has contributed to the interest in arts.
Prabhodh Purohit (Chart 1) mentions how music relates to jyotish. This is a very good example of how both the Venus (also being Atmakaraka) and Ketu being in lagna has combined influence on the native. This type of connecting music to jyotish couldn't have happened if someone isn't deeply interested in both the streams.

Prabhodh Purohit also mentions that the Venus exaltation is related to bed pleasures. Well, we could also take a guess at bed pleasures issue with George Clooney too. Clooney is considered good-looking through exalted second house.

In summary, exalted Venus seem to be showing its effects related to living things (as Prabhod Purohit mentions) through arts, looks, and bed pleasures, instead of focusing on providing material things.

Hypothesis: I wonder if we can also extend this to say, if material things are provided it means that the Venus hasn't expressed itself fully. Then we have to see if living things are harmed. For example, Clooney is rich but was single until recently (His sister's interview in 2012 mentions that this was by choice in order to focus on his career) while Purohit isn't rich but had family (He mentions his elder brother rescuing him from jala ganda, and also mentions having children and wife).
Another interesting fact is that George Clooney had Bell's Palsy which affected his face in Mars MD. (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Oscar_Stars/ ... ge-9921694)
In Clooney's chart Venus is under dristi of Saturn, and thus curtailed true expression of Venus?

[elipsis]

My point in this topic was to highlight the fact that, a karaka no matter where its placed requires support from other planets in order to be able to express itself. When a karaka is left isolated then it needn't matter where its placed because its potential is sapped out due to lack support from other planets. So a planet being exalted or debilitated needn't necessarily alter the capacity of the planet to express its full potential. Also the bhavas have no bearing whatsoever on the planet's capacity to give full results, A loss making bhava can still give favorable results in an odd fashion...if the planet is well supported.

Regards

[pink1]

I am interested to know which planets in the chart of Clooney made him an actor?

regards
pink1

[olivetree]

[quote="elipsis"]My point in this topic was to highlight the fact that, a karaka no matter where its placed requires support from other planets in order to be able to express itself. When a karaka is left isolated then it needn't matter where its placed because its potential is sapped out due to lack support from other planets. So a planet being exalted or debilitated needn't necessarily alter the capacity of the planet to express its full potential.

Regards[/quote]


In my chart moon is debilitated and it is a very significant planet for me because it is dispositor to four planets in upachaya house-11. Moon is also in isolation not flanked by any planets. Even though Jupiter is exalted in moon's sign, I have not reaped the benefits from it. At 36 years of age I've never been married and jupiter is karaka for spouse. So I can see how exaltation doesn't matter if the dispositor of exalted planet is debiitated and isolated.

Mars, the dispositor of the moon is pretty strong as it is in Kendra-10 (though in budha's sign), but perhaps does not help moon enough to be of service to Jupiter who is it's friend.

[elipsis]

If there aren't any planets Sagittarius, Taurus and Libra then your moon isn't strong. Secondly, for planets in cancer to progress or to operate optimally there must be friendly planets on either side or in opposition, in your chart it could be that Mars in 12th to cancer might have played a role in strengthening planets in cancer. I also think that depositor of cancer- moon should also be strongly placed. I've already mentioned what could have made your moon stronger, your moon is weak not because its debilitated but because it has no strong support from the friendly planets. When this is the case the only way moon could operate is through changes in the dasa, transits, partial aspects of other planets, the people you live with and place you reside, when these are conducive to your moon then you'll notice some strength in coming out it. This is when houses/bhavas become important, if regions in the zodiac are so noisy it needn't matter that Moon is isolated then it will always receive some kind of positive support.

Regards

[GNE]

what about Leonardo Dicaprio's Jupiter and Saturn .. no planets in 2/12 or 7 from either one of them. Unless you count ketu for his saturn(12th from). He's been in Jupiter MD the last while (since 2002-ish).

I'm not saying the concept is wrong, just wondering how it all works - as I also know people personally who have planet that are alone/"no support" yet they did well in their periods. So I wonder what else to look for besides the 2/12/7th support.

And also would you say for example a moon exalted in taurus but with no support is "Weaker" then a moon in an enemy sign or debilitated but surrounded and/or aspected by benefics?

dicaprio: November 11, 1974, 2:47 AM , los angelos CA.

[elipsis]

Read my reply to Olivetree.

Also check out Larry Ellison's chart: 17 Aug 1944, 15.23, NY. The time of birth may not be 100% accurate, I got it from private sources but its scrop asc.

[hiimnotcool]

A 5/9 and 3/11 aspect shows support too I believe. That's what I've gathered from some of the posts i've seen Elipsis write.

Even a 4/10 relationship shows support but it comes with work or after a long time. I might be completely wrong here though so please tell me if I am.

[elipsis]

Yes, as you keep increasing the distance the frequency of support changes. 5/9 is better than 9/5 even though they both represents a fortunate link and 3/11 activates after steady efforts etc. I just want to say what I really feel is that humans have a limited window of opportunity where they could do well or excel at something or just be happy but unfortunately the celestial mechanics do not take into account our lifestyle because humans are really insignificant compared to all that happens in the cosmos, it can give everything you wanted when you are 90 or it could carry it over for the future births. The houses and ascendant concept is designed specifically for humans but the planets, cosmos and the spirit world isn't just about humans but a natural occurrence that's beyond human understanding which is affecting everything not just humans, so it would be very stupid of us to expect a planet to recognize the house that it resides or that it'd abide by this imaginary 30 degree boundaries, the planets recognize no such thing of human creation. Nobody is there to erect a birth chart for a tree or a dog, because the 12 house mechanics isn't just there but still these celestial bodies affect their fate as well. In summary, its chaotic and to be able to make sense of things that are relevant to human activity based on these heavenly bodies is extremely difficult and it takes more than just concrete rules to understand its dynamics.

[olivetree]

Indeed, just as you said there are no planets in Libra, Sag, or Taurus as you mentioned. I am starting to understand what you are saying from your posts. However aside from the temporary relief that could occur from changes in transits etc- When you say the people you associate/live with etc may be able to support the weakened planet, how can this be when it is said that the people in one's life are really only the planets in their chart to begin with? Are you implying that if I were to associate daily with someone strongly influenced by Jupiter in their chart that this would strengthen my moon? Forgive me for going slightly off topic here, but you've brought up so many interesting points that I have not heard before. It may be worth exploring as an astrological experiment.

[elipsis]

Indeed, just as you said there are no planets in Libra, Sag, or Taurus as you mentioned. I am starting to understand what you are saying from your posts. However aside from the temporary relief that could occur from changes in transits etc- When you say the people you associate/live with etc may be able to support the weakened planet, how can this be when it is said that the people in one's life are really only the planets in their chart to begin with? Are you implying that if I were to associate daily with someone strongly influenced by Jupiter in their chart that this would strengthen my moon? Forgive me for going slightly off topic here, but you've brought up so many interesting points that I have not heard before. It may be worth exploring as an astrological experiment.

Yes, if you live with someone who has Jupiter in Sagittarius or Libra then by his or her assistance your moon will be able to move forward. The problem with such assistance is that it is very hard to find to suit your needs and secondly it is not permanent. These are temporary arrangements that you make use of in order to climb the ladder. In astrology, the longer you remain with someone the stronger will be their effects, for instance - you lived with your parents for a long time which makes the influence of Sun and Moon in your chart very strong compared to other planets. As life passes by, your spouse will be that person or it could be that person that weakens your chart even further based on his planetary position.In a man's chart Venus is the karaka for wife but in his early days the same Venus acts as elder sister or aunt. So in general planets are just people you associate with, they are temporary alliances that you make at every stage. In Indian astrology there is a subject dedicated to matchmaking with regard to marriage, while this system doesn't take into account the concept of love it however ensures that marriage becomes practical and workable, it ensures that no planet is left isolated or dissatisfied. Another system is called the Muhurtha - this all about finding fortunate times based on the planetary transits, whenever you get a rare opportunity then it can be said without any doubt that the transits are favorable for your chart.

Regards

[astrocraze]

Thanks Elipsis for your excellent posts

I have a question though.Does this concept apply to retrograde planets say retrograde mercury flanked by Venus on one side and jupiter Saturn sun on another

From your posts,I feel it is good but then what happens to Venus, is it beneficial to have a retrograde planet on 12 th?Similarly what about the trio having the retrograde on 2nd?

[tanmish]

Generally, VE in 12th is considered very good regardless of Ascendant, Rashi, etc. Same for VE in 2nd house.

Retrogradation works differently for fast-moving planets, Vs slow-moving ones (JU, SA).

Keep in mind that it is just an optical illusion - it only "appears" to be moving backwards due to:
a) relative distance from the Sun
b) degree of planet's orbital plane Vs earth's tilted axis
c) VE and only VE, rotates East-West (all others including Earth rotate West-East, hence Sunrise in East)
d) thus retrograde VE makes no difference

Hope Ellipsis-jee confirms the above......... Ciao

[elipsis]

Retrograde is bad in 12th as they aspect the preceding houses, but when its retrograde and near stationary then you could expect some benefic results in case of a benefic planet. A near stationary fast moving retrograde planet is stronger than the slow moving planets.

[hiimnotcool]

Elipsis ji,

I know Retrograde aspect the previous house in Nadi, but do they also aspect FROM the previous house as well? I can't remember for sure. Like is a Jupiter retrograde in Capricorn considered to be operating and aspecting from Sagittarius or Capricorn? Or both?

[astrocraze]

Pardon Elipsis and Tanmish.I am unable to understand the explanation. Venus is in 8th Scorpio,7th has retrograde mercury and 6th has jup,sat and sun.

In that case,7th is getting strong .what happens to 6th and 8th house?

[tanmish]

Hi Astrocraze,

Below is what I observe, based on birth details you posted in a prior post (8/Oct/1981, Chennai 19.30 pm):

- 6th is stronger than 7th and 8th (SAV of 29, versus 22 and 22)
- 7th and 8th houses have benefics, ME and VE, which forms a Lagnaadhi yoga
- 7th receives direct aspect of Lagna, plus 4th aspect of Lagna Lord Mars
- Strongest house in terms of SAV score is 4th house (obvious due to Rahu + LL Mars)
- SAV of Ascendant is 31, it means at age 31 you were generally well settled (True?)
- SAV of 4th house is 40, highest for the chart, means age 40 will be a turning point in your life
- Strongest planet is Saturn with Shadbala of 145%, his 3rd benefic aspect falls on your 8th
- Net-net, 6th is still stronger, giving you ability to fight short-term debts/diseases/enemies with ease

The above is based on video excerpts of a well-known Indian astrologer, Dr. S C Mishra. He suggests that it is quite enough to just look at Shadbala and SAV scores of houses for general life, marriage, career, etc.

No need to deep dive into Ishta fala, divisional charts, BAV, 5 fold friendships, and other minutiae. Unless you want a detailed microscopic picture which generally takes a lot of time to develop.

HTH

[olivetree]

Thank you Elipses. What you have shared is a whole new way of me looking at this science of astrology.

@Tanmish - I was taught that all things being equal, Venus/12 is often bad for everything except financial gain. In this world where financial gain can mean almost everything I can see why it could be seen as a good placement. However I was taught that for a man especially, it makes him immoral in romances, sometimes having to deal with bad women and problems in the marriage- but that despite all these things he gains much wealth.

[elipsis]

Elipsis ji,
I know Retrograde aspect the previous house in Nadi, but do they also aspect FROM the previous house as well? I can't remember for sure. Like is a Jupiter retrograde in Capricorn considered to be operating and aspecting from Sagittarius or Capricorn? Or both?

It depends on the orb of influence, Jupiter can aspect upto 15-20 degrees when its retrograde. So it usually operates in two signs but when a planet is within 5 degrees of a sign then it operates more in the preceding sign than the sign it is located. To give an example you take the nodes for instance which are naturally retrograde, in Clooney's chart as discussed above you'll notice Ketu in Aquarius, ketu being naturally retrograde will influence forward moving Jupiter in Capricorn, the effects of which will result in him being unmarried/divorcee for a while but as Jupiter progresses you notice it is comes in contact with Venus through 3/11 connection in Pisces which is why he ended up marrying someone who is lawyer and a human rights activist, Jupiter being 11th to Venus indicates that his wife will benefit from him.