Yogas in navamsa? Yes/no?

[GNE]

As the title says, what is your opinion on yogas forming in navamsa D9 chart?

And what about yogas that form in that, but are not present in the rasi?


Do you count Raj/Dhan yogas? Or yogas that do not involve house lords (ex: Gaja-kesari, Vasumati, Vosi/Vesi,etc..)

Thanks for the input!

[GNE]

Any opinions?


Instead of making a new thread, I thought I'd ask here as it related to yogas in navamsa:
But what about Parivartana in navamsa?

I've read that planets involved in an exchange are acting in the manner as if they are in their own sign.
Is this true?
if so, then could a parivartana between 2 planets in navamsa be looked as as though those planets are as strong as in own sign during their dasha's?

[rathore]

Even though some stalwarts claim Yogas in divisions but it is a fallacy. E.g. for vesi, vosi, sunapha, anapha etc. yogas a planet physically needs to be in the vicinity of luminaries. For Grahan (eclipse) yoga nodes (shadows) need to literally be in proximity to luminaries (otherwise how can an eclipse occur?), for akriti yogas an akriti (shape) literally needs to form in the zodiac, similarly for malika yogas planets literally need to line up. For Yogas needing combustion of a planet, how is it possible to have that standalone in a division?

Looking from another perspective, what does it even mean to be a Navamsa mahapurush? Especially when mahapurush & other yogas describe the height / weight / age of the native. It means the spouse will have those stats? Or if one has mahapurush in lets say some educational or trimsamsa etc. D "chart" then what does that even mean? Sure you will also hear that in division Yogas are for confirmation purposes only but then how do you confirm Yogas that need certain navamsa dignity along with Rashi placements? Or Yogas that need a full Moon? If someone starts to think of phases of Moon in divisions being separate & independent of Rashi then I don't know what to say. We will then have independent nitya yogas occuring in each division not to mention in Parashari Hora it will only be possible to have a few of all 27 nitya yogas then. Also Yogas that need deep exaltation can't be applied in divisions. Similarly Yogas needing certain avasthas go defunct in divisions. As it is seen it all starts to sound inconsistent & absurd, because it is.

Per sages conjunctions in Rashi, mutual aspects in Rashi, parivartan in Rashi, Navamsa & Drekkana creates strong relationship between the planets involved. But this is just creating a relationship out of which Yogas, qualities of the native spring out based on lordship in Rashi, mixing of natural karakatwas, placement in Rashi etc. of the planets involved.

The idea of planets being in own signs when exchanged I read in one Nadi system & I am doubtful it can be used in Parashari Yogas etc.

Rathore

[GNE]

Thanks for that reply Rathore.
I was thinking similar, and thus started questioning it... mostly in regards to things like combustion...how could they be in navamsa if the planet is not actually next to the sun in the sky/space.

Great point made on the mahapurush yogas and nitya in divisional charts.

And as for confirming yogas , I never fully bought that idea...
otherwise so many celebrity charts that people have written about lose yogas since it seems rare to have yogas repeat in navamsa the same way, and on the other hand, I've seen many "weak" charts or people struggling through life, who have wonderful navamsa's (as far as yogas go), yet they clearly see no fruits of those.
I have one friend who IF there was yogas in navamsa, he should be living like a king somewhat. (and absolutely isnt'...
meanwhile, his rasi lacks much yogas. no real raj or dhan yoga is present, and no MPY, and chandra with 3 malefic aspects,etc.)


And thank you for your clarification on Parivartana and other sorts of relationships between planets in vargas.


The main question on my mind now is, if there isn't supposed to be yogas in divisions...why then does it seem 99% of astrologers use it and seem (to them at least) to make sense of it all and give readings using them.
A case of talking themselves into having anything fit.

[rathore]

Using Divisions as charts is relatively new since 250 years or so. As you have seen it easily lends itself to explain anything for any chart. Some well known Astrologers were taught to use Divisions as they are (not charts) but some moved away probably because it is much easier to work with D "charts" without ever needing to keep in mind (or even learn) the real factors. Therefore one won't see them using Yogas other than easy ones like gaj kesari, DKY, mahapurush etc. There are so many spread across texts that it is just about impossible to remember them all (thousands don't even have names). Also D "chart" theory is kind of like KP in terms of making it methodical in which case why worry about remebering Yogas, Avasthas, Rashmi etc. when all can be explained with a D "chart" dance?

So I don't know what these "learned men" are upto since they ignore a lion's share of Astrological gems. Umpteen times I see literal Yogas coming true but the "learned men" find all sorts of reasoning for the chart except the Yoga in question. You & I too talked about a native here who had all sorts of astrological explanations provided for years of postings except that two line yoga which was the root of it all. And this native visited real Astrologers too, some of them stalwarts. This is just one case, its pretty much a shame now. N number of times Astrologers take wrong birth times by own or querist's mistake & have "convincing" explanations anyway. After the lagna gets changed a new "convincing" explanation follows. It was Sun who triggered the event earlier & now its Mercury. I do NOT / CANNOT understand who are these learned men kidding other than themselves.

Rest some throw intuition into the equation & then I don't have an answer to that. That is another matter that the so called intuition also goes wrong several times.

Yes the "confirming yogas from divisions" is a made-up rule. It is neither mentioned in texts, nor it is logical & as you point out it just doesn't work even though one can make anything work in Astrology be it any Ayanamsa & even zero Ayanamsa. It all just works out fine as if my magic.

Rathore

[GNE]

For sure, I have witnessed the "D Chart dance" many times. And you may get a good laugh at this....I was listening to an astrology seminar Mp3 a day ago and the teacher in it not only used D-charts like the rasi, yogas, aspects and all, but said they use the nakshatra in the d-charts. And started to explain examples using placement of planets in nakshatra's in D-charts...
saying to turn on the degrees in divisions on your software and use nakshatra / nakshatra lord placements,etc. in D-charts too.
...insanity.

I didn't get the name of the teacher though...it was an mp3 another friend got somehow, and it sort of just started in the middle of a 3 hour session. The mp3 was the last hour or so.


And it has become a pet peeve of mine too , when people try to find all sorts of reasonings in a chart for an event that clearly is a yoga coming to fruition (especially when it's the dasha of that planet involved in it), but they not only dance around that because of some "Cancellation" it has (usually nothing from parashara...something from a newer astrologer ) and when they can't explain why an event happened , and don't want to agree its the yoga, they jump to D-charts..

I've been a victim of that ascendant change + blaming completely different planets for events.
(due to my lagna on the cusp)


And good point, with the D-chart dance...one could use any ayanamsa and find proof of something in some d-chart, using some lagna (chandra, dasha, surya,etc..) in those d-charts..
I guess thats why Pushya Paksha was/is getting hyped up on jhora by the author (who I've noticed uses yogas in d-charts)

[Aravind]

I think the challenge with the divisional charts is the time of birth, in most cases the divisional charts might change even with few minutes of difference in birth time. Like in my case my birth time is 20:15 , Pune in India , Nov/17/74. My lagna is Gemini and my lagan in Navmsa is Scorpio , the navmsa has 9th and 10th lord parivartan, 7th and 9th lord conjunction 2 very powerful raja yogas if at all we consider yogas in Navamsa, but if the time is changes by few minutes the navamsa changes to Saggitarius tho the lagna in the birth chart remains the same. So I think if we have the exact time it might not be a bad idea to look into the divisional charts especially the Navamsa but when we are not sure it is not wise.

[GNE]

Yeah correct birthtime is a must.
But even ayanamsa must be correct.... IF one was to use yogas (I'm not saying they should or not..) then things change in between ayanamsa even in many Navamsa I've checked.
Of course there are huge changes in ayanamsa like Raman/Pushya-Paksha, but even ones closer to lahiri like Fagan, or adding 0.34.29 to traditional lahiri ayanamsa (which I was told by forum member Elipsis a while ago) often changes a planet or two in Navamsa.

So it's confusing

[Khoo Hock Leong]

I have always explained divisional chart in terms of quantum theory(refer to my earlier posts). Here I will try to explain it more abstractly but in layman language with a philosphical tinge.

The divisional chart is a multi-dimension of things where each dimension is not limited to x, y, z or time. It could be totally different qualia (a term used in Philosophy of the Mind where it is a matter that serves for the mind's reference or anchor point) altogether.

Each divisional chart represents an expansion of the corresponding house in Rasi. But because each house in the Rasi has a relation in space with the other houses including for each house (including the house in question) its several parts as well as the planets. So when the divisional charts are constructed, the size of the parts plus the sequence of how the parts (building blocks) are assembled that result in the divisional chart, would then replace the planets and the houses old positions in the Rasi with a completely new relative positions of the houses and planets. This is the theory of many worlds explored by Philosophy of the Mind and Metaphysics and taken up by the scientific community in cosmology subjects (quantum theory is a special case of the many worlds concept where the electrons, protons, netrons, quarks, positrons and what have you must obey certain electromagnetic laws (in the actual Many Worlds concept used by cosmogy, they not only have to take care of the electromagnetic field (the maths part) but the magnetic and gravitational field as well.

So far there are only signs that that there are other worlds in cosmology but as far as divisional charts are concerned the proof is in the pudding so if you have a dark moon in Rasi but bright moon in D7, it shows where matters of the world are concerned you are more receptive but because of the dark moon in rasi, you are still generally a pessimistic person.

Things like that.

And depending on how you assemble the divisional chart, you get higher harmonics akin to the sipernova, black hole theory etc. in cosmology where matter gets very dense but the particles still exist and each bear a certain relationship with the others whether houses or planets (matter can never be destroyed - the first principle of kinematics, although here we are talking about higher physics, but the general gist of the idea is there).

So how did this come about even before General Relativity was thought up? Well in science there are many paradigms to work from but in general if one paradigm bears some semblance with another paradigm, it means they are considered 'close' in explaining certain phenomena ( this is Philosophy of Science).

[Khoo Hock Leong]

By the way the black hole and supernova represent the extreme limiting state of things where matter completely collapse ( that is why cosmologists use a lot of mathematical series, calculus etc. in their maths ) but of course for the divisional charts that limiting state is not reached yet and thus matter is still not destroyed.

Saptarishis Magazine has an article detailing the similarity between quantum physics and vedic astrology. You may want to take a look at it although I have not read it yet. But I suspect they must be talking about some micro-aspect of Vedic Astrology.

[Khoo Hock Leong]

You may also would like to know that similar paradigms tend to cluster in a certain period - a few hundred years or so - so it is not surprising General Relativity and the divisional chart theory sepatate about 150 years. What is surprising is in fact that General Relativity completely revolutionise nineteenth century physics ie.what Thomas Khun (he can be considered the father of the Philosophy of Science) call a Scientific Revolution which occurs every now and then. But I guess the physicists did not know much astrology at that time and thus unaware of what the astrologists were up to.

[rathore]

There is no need to mix quantum theory, black holes etc. with Astrology. Once a new subject like quantum etc. is loosely (and one will notice all these "relations" are loose) related to Astrology (which is itself abstract in nature to begin with except the Astronomical part) then you have the theory-of-everything.

One can even mix it with Weather conditions (temperature, wind speed, humidity etc.) and have a nice theory. All that needs to be done is to be "loose" and a connection will magically show up. And if black holes can be related to Astrology then we must also relate dark matter, dark energy which is supposedly filling the Universe more than ordinary matter & energy. They must have an effect on our Dark Side . Maybe Trimsamsa. ha ha

And since the Universe is expanding so that must also somehow relate to a Birth chart. Maybe the birth chart is also expanding into even more D "charts" which means lets take into account D1800 also. Someone is actually doing it, see this - http://www.epanditji.in/pranamsha.php

Now beat that.

Rathore

[Khoo Hock Leong]

The point about the universe expanding is related to the concept of each of us having a para-brahma in us which when we pass away it goes back to the Universal Atma.

The thing is taking divisional charts as if it s a Rasi Chart (with the exception of temporary significators because these was developed by a different person and therefore not integrated into the theory (Parasara may not have called his own theory General Relativity though), although in the future someone may be able to spot it on how the integration can be done. If it does not work, other astrologers would not have made use of interpreting the divisional charts as if it is a Rasi Chart (for some decades now) and it works. Generally it is those with a higher education who accepts this fact (I do not know why), mabye it has to do with Saraswati Yoga.

The article written in Saptarishis Astrology was not an astrologer. It was written by a physicist who has an interest in astrology. But the other astrologers who make use of the divisional charts holistically successfully mentioned in the previous paragraph are pure astrologers.

[Khoo Hock Leong]

The universe is constantly expanding just like at any moment of time, there are people dying in this world. But when a supernova explodes, there is an accelerated expansion of the universe akin to a mass demise of humanity like genocide etc. and divinatory people claim they can see balls of intense bright light (the souls of the deceased) going up skywards into the atmosphere and imploded.

Interstingly, 8th house dealing with mass deaths, is placed 9th to the 12th which governs our severance with our mortal coils.

[Khoo Hock Leong]

In the years leading to the new millenium, the common theme running through the new age music is "As above, so below" and what we have been discussing epitomises just that and Hinduism (a term given by the British when they set foot on India) is overarching in its philosophical and para-religious views, whose doors are opened to anyone who has the receptivity in his heart to embrace it. It covers the tenets what we have discussed too. It shows that we are all part and one of one Universal Soul.

[Khoo Hock Leong]

Para-religious views because Hinduisim :

Exists side by side with other religions
Is something beyond religion, it covers more than that
Resembles a religion but not exactly the same
Is an offshoot of a religion ie. a way of knowing God
Is something that wakes us up into knowing what life is

[GNE]

I was gone and returned to this, all very interesting, thanks for sharing your opinions as usual.
I will take time to re-read and digest what was said here,
but a question popped into my mind when looking at charts last night:

What is your(or anyone else reading this) opinion on Parivartana in Navamsa?
Since though it is a yoga, even by reading Varga's without aspects or yogas it is still a connection sort of like a planet being in each others nakshatra (only this time it's each others navamsa of course).

I've read some opinions say planets in each others navamsa sign parivartana are as 'strong' and to be treated as though in their own signs in d9. ?


Anyway,
I do agree many people go too far with varga's...I laughed aloud when I saw the D1800. As my friends and I sometimes make jokes about checking our d99's or d1000's for yogas'. . then to see someone actually does it, but even further to 1800... crazy. As no way any birthtime is that well known. (not to mention they'd have to solve ayanamsa to the exact minute/second).

Yesterday I came across a blog where someone was checking navamsa for health issues, like Cancer illness, etc.
But thing is they were jumping right to navamsa and ignoring Rasi...which struck me as wrong.
Actually I never thought navamsa was a prime chart to check for disease, when we have d30...even d6 / 8. ...


thoughts?


Thanks again

[Khoo Hock Leong]

Let me answer your question on going down many many levels like d1800 for a divisional chart. The thing is YOU CAN GO DOWN TO MANY MANY LEVELS BUT NOT ALL NUMBERS WOULD DO. This is the science of fractals and it finds application in many areas one of which is divisional charts partitioning.

Yes exchange in Navamsas (signs in Navamsa chart) work just like exchange in "signs" in any other divisional charts. Because the divisional chart is the model framework housing the particular divisional part in question just like the d9 chart is the layout of the Navamsas. D1 is housing the sign Rasi, d24 is housing the 1/24th part of each sign layout, the d30 is housing the 1/30th part of each sign layout etc. Thus exchange of "signs" (they are not really the Rasi sign) in any divisional chart works as well as aspects, yogas, dispositorships etc

Of course all of our five senses are housed in d1 so we can only see these effects from the divisionsl charts subtly and in a nuanced manner as they percolate upwards to the d1. All the panchanbhuta (spelling?) still exist in the lower level charts, however.

Each divisional chart we can analyze via the nakshatra at that level as well. They are the nakshatra of the "sign" at that level of the divisional chart. They are the dominions in charge by the Sun snd the Moon at that level of the division.

[Khoo Hock Leong]

Also when a planet transits a sign in Rasi chart, it automatically transits all the 1/nth parts of the sign in the D-n divisional chart.

When I made an earlier post on this concept (under the title of interaction between Rasi and Navamsa) I just told readers that the sub-division on the cusp of the bhava of the divisional chart would determine thee sign of the bhava in that divisional chart like KP Astrology for easier exposition and understanding.

[GNE]

Appreciate the reply, thanks.

Yeah I figured one could go down as many levels in divisions, but I guess I was getting at that it doesn't mean one should.
I don't think most could even trust d60 (birthtime error, or ayanamsa ..) but then if someone was trying to go even farther, I wouldn't trust them to read a d1800 chart unless they proved they know their birthtime down to the exact second and have also solved the age old ayanamsa debate.

I was/am wondering though how to read a planets 'strength', particularly in navamsa (since deemed most important for this) when in a parivartana.

and I have heard the concept of using nakshatra at the sign level in D-charts from Astrologer michael laughrin. (A friend sent me a bunch of his Mp3 audio clips, he used nakshatra in varga's...) which was interesting...though not sure if I agree or not, I haven't tried. So remain opinion-less really, for now.

edit: my mistake, the astrologer on the Mp3's was james kelleher
thanks again

[Khoo Hock Leong]

Each "sign"in a divisional chart d-n is thus an almagamation of all the 1/nth part of a sign. If things like exchange, yoga, dispositorship etc does not work, it would destroy the laws of symmetry of mathematics. Anyway the proof is in the pudding. Just use the divisional charts for delineation bearing in mind the purpose of the use of each divisional chart and see whether it works or not.

[Khoo Hock Leong]

Regarding your point about going down to unnecssary deeper levels, it is the age old question all over again of being practical when doing delineation - just like when I posted the topic on How to Make Analyzing of Charts Easier.

[Khoo Hock Leong]

If you omit Nakshatra analysis at the divisional chart level, you are taking away the rightful dominion of the Moon when there is a dominion of the Sun (the "sign") and you cannot have that.

The Sun and Moon always go together. They represent the right and left eyes of the celestial realm.

[Khoo Hock Leong]

Note also the Nakshatra at the divisional chart level is subsumed within the"sign" of that divisional chart (where the "sign" is the almagamation of all the 1/nth parts of that sign and which is displayed in that d-n divisional chart as mentioned previously).

Planets may be placed in different Nakshatras from the one they are placed in the Rasi Chart. So for example my Venus is in the 3rd pada of Pushya in Rasi Chart giving rise to good relationships (most people help me, I just need to extend my arm to say I need help) and also Venus lands in Libra in my main Navamsa.

Now my Venus could be in Shravana in D-24 in the 3rd pada (just as an example, also the pada chosen for illustriation happens to be 3rd again, I could have just chosen another pada for illustration). So as far as learning is concerned I love learning. And because it is in the 3rd pada of Shravana, my Venus is in Gemini for the Navamsa attached to D24. So this further reinforces my love for learning. Remember as I have always mentioned, every divisional chart has a corresponding mini-Navamsa and JHora supports this view.

So how you analyse the divisional chart is exactly the same as how you analyse the Rasi chart but only for that area covered by that divisional chart.

[GNE]

Very interesting, thanks for the replies.
I was going to go check my nakshatra's in navamsa + others out of curiosity, after I listened to the James Keheller mp3, but forgot about it until you brought it up now.

I just need to learn more about what planets in each nakshatra mean ,like how you got the conclusion of your venus in pushya pada 3 as "giving rise to good relationships (most people help me, I just need to extend my arm to say I need help)"

I feel this could also help with ayanamsa selection, as I have charts of friends who have many planets change pada / navamsa, and some even shift to a new nakshatra. (I'm talking ayanamsa closer to lahiri like Fagan or a 'tweaked' version that elipsis told me about a while ago. adding 0.34.29 to traditional lahiri...)

My venus in Lahiri is in scorpio navamsa, conjunct rahu, in sixth house. ...so quite 'injured'.
Whereas in the other ayanamsa's it's in libra in fifth conjunct Lagna lord mercury and aspected by Jupiter...
night and day difference.
But I don't know enough about how to judge which does fit my life more.. (since Ive been questioning how to even read navamsa...)


And side note, but when it comes to checking nakshatra+navamsa in each divisional chart, do you see the D10/Dasamsa chart as being about profession as in what we do? Or more how society see's us / or our relationship with society/co-workers through our profession? Or is it show our skills, like what we're good at? or..?

as you can see, I'm confused as to the D10...I've read a number of different blogs focus on different things when talking about it. (some say it does show our exact profession when read properly. others say it's just about our status and nothing to do with what sort of career/job we have...etc).

I ask because when I'm going to go check nakshatra in that chart, it would be of little help if I wasn't sure what area of life the chart truly is showing.

Thanks again