Kindly give the picture of the first page of the book and the pages where you feel the sloaks are different. regardsRe: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi
Postby rathore » 18 Jan 2014, 04:41
Anuradha ji- I indicated earlier I am wary of talking about a Text for which significantly different versions are around. The shlokas are provided in previous posts for reference. If you want, compare your Mansagari with Sharma, Choithmal version & see the differences. This is because different scholars put these shlokas down from memory. Hence it is essential to have sound understanding of the fundamentals, otherwise misinterpretations occur based on copyist, editorial, memory, translation etc errors.
Recent e.g. now PVR ji is saying D24 calculation has been wrong all this time owing to misinterpretation. If it is to be believed at its face value, what about the SJC theories surrounding D24? Shilpa ji praised a D24 work by SJC. That all goes in vain including several case studies. This cannot even happen to begin with if the foundational principles are sound. Its not research anymore when the basics have been compromised in case one is thinking on those lines. Anyway, I digress.
Details:
Sharma, Choithmal
Mumbai, Shrivenkteshwar Steam Press
Acharya Shri Vinaychandra Gyan Bhandar, Jaipur
Banasthali University
Year 1884
Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi
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Going under water with a torch to seek for a drowning man.”
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Going under water with a torch to seek for a drowning man.”
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satishdesh
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Namaste rathorji
When we go through all ancient texts we have references of placement, transits, etc mostly for navmansha. it's unfortunate that we have very very rare quotes with respect to other divisional charts. When bphs states d-9 for kalatrasoukhya we should look in that direction but i found that d-9 chart has given all other significations also. This might be due to fact a that ancient vaidic jyotishya was nakAshtra based and addition of signs is a latter phenomenon. Even our nakshtra chakra starts from kruttika i.e agnitH paatu krittikaH ... and to be precise only planets, nakshatras are having physical presence.
Nadi granthas are not reliable and there is lot of confusion for allotment of nadi's span. Even phalasa given are different in different nadi texts. And most important we can't have systematic, replicable study from these texts. If we trust what is given in a book nadi astrology by cs patel it's near impossible to have prediction for twins via nadi. It is not possible to remember every nadi phala by heart to have predictions in such cases. So it would be better to think of d-60 in relation with d-1 to have phala for twins.
i think kn rao school do have one book on this matter. Though they use d charts as independent entity; at present this seems to be the only way.
Regards
satish
When we go through all ancient texts we have references of placement, transits, etc mostly for navmansha. it's unfortunate that we have very very rare quotes with respect to other divisional charts. When bphs states d-9 for kalatrasoukhya we should look in that direction but i found that d-9 chart has given all other significations also. This might be due to fact a that ancient vaidic jyotishya was nakAshtra based and addition of signs is a latter phenomenon. Even our nakshtra chakra starts from kruttika i.e agnitH paatu krittikaH ... and to be precise only planets, nakshatras are having physical presence.
Nadi granthas are not reliable and there is lot of confusion for allotment of nadi's span. Even phalasa given are different in different nadi texts. And most important we can't have systematic, replicable study from these texts. If we trust what is given in a book nadi astrology by cs patel it's near impossible to have prediction for twins via nadi. It is not possible to remember every nadi phala by heart to have predictions in such cases. So it would be better to think of d-60 in relation with d-1 to have phala for twins.
i think kn rao school do have one book on this matter. Though they use d charts as independent entity; at present this seems to be the only way.
Regards
satish
I dont know how many of you have gone through the recent articles by Narasimha ji on Pushya Paksha Ayanamsha. All the examples given use divisional charts as independent charts. In fact it goes one step deeper into divisional chart of divisional chart (for e.g, Navamsha of Saptampsha) and Vimsottari and other conditional nakshatra dasas based on divisional longitude of Moon. Of-course, this is nothinng new as JHora has had the facility of creating a Navamsha of Saptampsha and divisional vimsottari for a long time, well before the recent article/features on PP ayanamsha.
On the contrary I am yet to come across even one example of using divisional positions without a chart. By this what I mean is one should be able to, for e .g., explain events without using relative divisional positions. What I mean it is fine to say Sun's Navamsha falls in 6th Bhava (of Rasi chart) but NOT Sun's Navamsha is 3rd from Lagna's navamsha.
In reality very few venture into divisional charts at all. Brave hearts like KN Rao and Narasimha have done so. Unless an equally comprehensive effort is made and published on alternative thoughts it would be difficult to accept them.
On the contrary I am yet to come across even one example of using divisional positions without a chart. By this what I mean is one should be able to, for e .g., explain events without using relative divisional positions. What I mean it is fine to say Sun's Navamsha falls in 6th Bhava (of Rasi chart) but NOT Sun's Navamsha is 3rd from Lagna's navamsha.
In reality very few venture into divisional charts at all. Brave hearts like KN Rao and Narasimha have done so. Unless an equally comprehensive effort is made and published on alternative thoughts it would be difficult to accept them.
LOVACRS
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Crystalpages
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Aadarneeya Jyotishis,
This is indeed a rather polarized and therefore "charged" issue in contemporary jyotish and has been so for decades. I am a new member on this wonderful forum and since my messages are moderated (as a new member), I am relying on the editors to make sure I am not breaking any established forum rules. Still as a prudent precaution, I am not posting the link to an article that I had written expressing my thoughts on this issue. I had submitted my article written a few years before publishing there in November 2005. The article number is 1092 in astro section of this eclictic mega web-magazine, a product of love by a NRI and wonderful poet Rajender Krishan from USA. Boloji is the name he chose for his site and to the best of my belief and knowledge, it is not a commercial site but literary.
I have just two minor grumblings and clarifications!
The graphics, except charts and tables, are not controlled or selected by me
The next and bigger source of discomfort and rather discouraging is that after many of the articles, nearly ALL the comments I received were REQUESTS for READINGS! <SIGH>
Anyways, if moderators wish, I will be happy to add the full URL to ease the efforts of any members who wish to read my thoughts on this matter!
Regards,
Rohiniranjan
This is indeed a rather polarized and therefore "charged" issue in contemporary jyotish and has been so for decades. I am a new member on this wonderful forum and since my messages are moderated (as a new member), I am relying on the editors to make sure I am not breaking any established forum rules. Still as a prudent precaution, I am not posting the link to an article that I had written expressing my thoughts on this issue. I had submitted my article written a few years before publishing there in November 2005. The article number is 1092 in astro section of this eclictic mega web-magazine, a product of love by a NRI and wonderful poet Rajender Krishan from USA. Boloji is the name he chose for his site and to the best of my belief and knowledge, it is not a commercial site but literary.
I have just two minor grumblings and clarifications!
The graphics, except charts and tables, are not controlled or selected by me
The next and bigger source of discomfort and rather discouraging is that after many of the articles, nearly ALL the comments I received were REQUESTS for READINGS! <SIGH>
Anyways, if moderators wish, I will be happy to add the full URL to ease the efforts of any members who wish to read my thoughts on this matter!
Regards,
Rohiniranjan
Namate RR ji,
Nice to see you on LOVA!
Although I had seen your article earlier, your reference again was like a refresher.
Yes, I am inclined to agree that the varga charts are indeed charts. But that said,
I am curious to see an example chart interpretation by those who think Vargas are
not charts, using vargas only for delineating strengths. I would also want this to
include timing of an event and not just the Bhava results, since Bhava results lend
themselves to relatively more subjective interpretation than timing an event.
The author had posted an example earlier. But he had again used the chart concept
(e.g., placement of graha wrt to amsa lagna)
CRS
Nice to see you on LOVA!
Although I had seen your article earlier, your reference again was like a refresher.
Yes, I am inclined to agree that the varga charts are indeed charts. But that said,
I am curious to see an example chart interpretation by those who think Vargas are
not charts, using vargas only for delineating strengths. I would also want this to
include timing of an event and not just the Bhava results, since Bhava results lend
themselves to relatively more subjective interpretation than timing an event.
The author had posted an example earlier. But he had again used the chart concept
(e.g., placement of graha wrt to amsa lagna)
CRS
LOVACRS
Anuradha ji,
Please see included comparisons for two versions of Mansagari. I have only highlighted more obvious differences, one who wants can look thoroughly & will find out more. This is just for a few pages & differences are on other pages too.
In the below two Anapha yoga is compared between two versions of Mansagari.
Mansagari Ver1 http://tinypic.com/r/k3vw9k/8
Mansagari Ver2 http://tinypic.com/r/2w4he1t/8
In the below two Durudhra yoga is compared in the same two versions. Notice one version says Mars, the other says Venus.
Mansagari Ver1 http://tinypic.com/r/k3vw9k/8
Mansagari Ver2 http://tinypic.com/r/21cruib/8
The differences are simply because these texts are written down from memory of many people. And this is why basic mathematical calculations are highly desirable for an Astrologer, otherwise misinterpretations occur.
Satishdesh ji,
You are right. Nadi granthas are confusing & so unreliable for the general user. In the hands of those with Nadi expertise they would hold value. Other than that I can think of Pranapada lagna to differentiate twins, however I have no experience with it. A few Vargas will always change with twins born within a few minutes to each other, however using them like Rashi chart is developing their own flavour of Astrology & is not classical Astrology.
Rohiniranjan ji, I suppose you could post the link since its not commercial. Or you could post the document as-is.
Continued..
Please see included comparisons for two versions of Mansagari. I have only highlighted more obvious differences, one who wants can look thoroughly & will find out more. This is just for a few pages & differences are on other pages too.
In the below two Anapha yoga is compared between two versions of Mansagari.
Mansagari Ver1 http://tinypic.com/r/k3vw9k/8
Mansagari Ver2 http://tinypic.com/r/2w4he1t/8
In the below two Durudhra yoga is compared in the same two versions. Notice one version says Mars, the other says Venus.
Mansagari Ver1 http://tinypic.com/r/k3vw9k/8
Mansagari Ver2 http://tinypic.com/r/21cruib/8
The differences are simply because these texts are written down from memory of many people. And this is why basic mathematical calculations are highly desirable for an Astrologer, otherwise misinterpretations occur.
Satishdesh ji,
You are right. Nadi granthas are confusing & so unreliable for the general user. In the hands of those with Nadi expertise they would hold value. Other than that I can think of Pranapada lagna to differentiate twins, however I have no experience with it. A few Vargas will always change with twins born within a few minutes to each other, however using them like Rashi chart is developing their own flavour of Astrology & is not classical Astrology.
Rohiniranjan ji, I suppose you could post the link since its not commercial. Or you could post the document as-is.
Continued..
In the below two Drekkana results are compared in the same two versions. Notice Mercury is missing from one.
Mansagari Ver1 http://tinypic.com/r/1zgzv4o/8
Mansagari Ver2 http://tinypic.com/r/2vtsb9g/8
CRS ji,
PP Ayanamsa case studies (the ones I saw) are based on Divisional longitudes. That is just wrong because by mapping actual longitudes to imaginary longitudes (for e.g. 1 Navamsa to 30 degrees - an SJC concept) one will have different Chara Karakas for each Varga! That just doesn't sound right.
Research is valid when basic principles are kept intact, more so for subjects such as Astrology (which are narrated by Gods to Man). SJC has done similar case studies using Lahiri too. I guess they are to be considered in vain now (with PP). Also KP Astrology becomes mostly invalid as sub, sub-sub lords change with such large differences in Ayanamsa. Sanjay Rath's own Nakshatra changes on PP & he is a well read person. Its sad that after being in Jyotish for so long, his Nakshatra has changed & he never knew before hand (if he accepts PP although I don't know if he has for sure.. he seems to support it though). So I don't see how inventing new principles that makes actual princples inconsistent (such as different Chara karkas for each Varga) & doing research on top of it, can really be called "Research". Like indicated above its more of their own flavour than Classical Astrology.
The e.g. you present of Sun's Navamsa being 3rd from Lagna Navamsa is similar to some shlokas found.
One e.g. from BPHS (there are others too):
Even though the translation says Navamsa Ascendant, a look at the Sanskrit shloka clears that it means Lagna Navamsa (Lagnaanshe) and NOT Navamsa Ascendant (this translation can cause confusion for many). Hence planets placed w.r.t. to the Lagna Navamsa are used in application but verses like this (that give quantified results) will start talking in terms of Natal planets first before they jump to Vargas. This is because there is no independent Varga "chart" to begin with. So planets placed w.r.t. to Lagna Navamsa don't start aspecting each other or create yogas, yogakarakas in Navamsa.
One can do research on Newtonian phenomenons by assuming there is no gravity but one will only come up with weird/inconsistent theories to explain it. The point is basics in Jyotish cannot be compromised.
And not all Astrology is lord of this in that, handful of yogas, planet in nth House etc that people start to apply to every Varga. There are thousands of phalit verses to understand before a real understanding can set in. Anyone who actually tries to go through them will be overwhelmed & realize how much there is to know before one can research & suggest a model. If nothing else, just understanding the nature of Signs, Planets, Nakshatras & mixing of these with each other is enough to predict. There is a lot of symbolism given in Jyotish, to understand it is the crux of the matter. If you can go through just the prominent texts (in full) it will be clear that you don't need these alternative theories (such as divisional longitudes, Varga "charts" etc.) in the name of research, in fact it will be realized that many of them are downright bogus (in terms of Classical Astrology).
On how to apply it to see results, just use Rashi chart as one would (you can use Rashi Tulya Navamsa as an additional tool & there are other tools too) & use Vargas for dignity, strength of results. But then one will need to actually go through several thousand verses to know which ones apply. For e.g. the Venus in Lagna Navamsa verse is clear cut but one who doesn't know it will try to predict using non traditional methods of Varga "charts" , Divisional longitudes etc. But would that lead to a correct prediction? That is anybody's guess. Just look at many of SJC case studies. The theories proposed from those case studies working outside of those case studies is just a chance. And if you check those theories to charts where no such event happened (and the laid down placements applied), the theory would conclude it happened, but you would know the reality.
Rathore
Mansagari Ver1 http://tinypic.com/r/1zgzv4o/8
Mansagari Ver2 http://tinypic.com/r/2vtsb9g/8
CRS ji,
PP Ayanamsa case studies (the ones I saw) are based on Divisional longitudes. That is just wrong because by mapping actual longitudes to imaginary longitudes (for e.g. 1 Navamsa to 30 degrees - an SJC concept) one will have different Chara Karakas for each Varga! That just doesn't sound right.
Research is valid when basic principles are kept intact, more so for subjects such as Astrology (which are narrated by Gods to Man). SJC has done similar case studies using Lahiri too. I guess they are to be considered in vain now (with PP). Also KP Astrology becomes mostly invalid as sub, sub-sub lords change with such large differences in Ayanamsa. Sanjay Rath's own Nakshatra changes on PP & he is a well read person. Its sad that after being in Jyotish for so long, his Nakshatra has changed & he never knew before hand (if he accepts PP although I don't know if he has for sure.. he seems to support it though). So I don't see how inventing new principles that makes actual princples inconsistent (such as different Chara karkas for each Varga) & doing research on top of it, can really be called "Research". Like indicated above its more of their own flavour than Classical Astrology.
The e.g. you present of Sun's Navamsa being 3rd from Lagna Navamsa is similar to some shlokas found.
One e.g. from BPHS (there are others too):
Even though the translation says Navamsa Ascendant, a look at the Sanskrit shloka clears that it means Lagna Navamsa (Lagnaanshe) and NOT Navamsa Ascendant (this translation can cause confusion for many). Hence planets placed w.r.t. to the Lagna Navamsa are used in application but verses like this (that give quantified results) will start talking in terms of Natal planets first before they jump to Vargas. This is because there is no independent Varga "chart" to begin with. So planets placed w.r.t. to Lagna Navamsa don't start aspecting each other or create yogas, yogakarakas in Navamsa.
One can do research on Newtonian phenomenons by assuming there is no gravity but one will only come up with weird/inconsistent theories to explain it. The point is basics in Jyotish cannot be compromised.
And not all Astrology is lord of this in that, handful of yogas, planet in nth House etc that people start to apply to every Varga. There are thousands of phalit verses to understand before a real understanding can set in. Anyone who actually tries to go through them will be overwhelmed & realize how much there is to know before one can research & suggest a model. If nothing else, just understanding the nature of Signs, Planets, Nakshatras & mixing of these with each other is enough to predict. There is a lot of symbolism given in Jyotish, to understand it is the crux of the matter. If you can go through just the prominent texts (in full) it will be clear that you don't need these alternative theories (such as divisional longitudes, Varga "charts" etc.) in the name of research, in fact it will be realized that many of them are downright bogus (in terms of Classical Astrology).
On how to apply it to see results, just use Rashi chart as one would (you can use Rashi Tulya Navamsa as an additional tool & there are other tools too) & use Vargas for dignity, strength of results. But then one will need to actually go through several thousand verses to know which ones apply. For e.g. the Venus in Lagna Navamsa verse is clear cut but one who doesn't know it will try to predict using non traditional methods of Varga "charts" , Divisional longitudes etc. But would that lead to a correct prediction? That is anybody's guess. Just look at many of SJC case studies. The theories proposed from those case studies working outside of those case studies is just a chance. And if you check those theories to charts where no such event happened (and the laid down placements applied), the theory would conclude it happened, but you would know the reality.
Rathore
Rathore ji,
Thanks for the response. Our ways of thinking are obviously quite different. Although I look at new ways with scepticism I do not reject it outright. I do respect classics but the indisputable ability of time to dissipate everything makes me sceptic about the the authenticity of the current available versions as well as our ability to "understand" the language which is set in a period of which we can only make educated guesses. For e.g., a simple factor like current days' population vs those of the days in which the classics were created (as against written which I beleive is much much later) can throw us off.
Be that as it may, I am quite open to both ideas (divisions as chart and not as chart) as I keep reading about both. As I said, I have come across quite a few example charts supporting the d-chart. I do understand that these could be accidental fits and may or may not stand a deeper scrutiny on a wider set of charts.
But, on the other hand I am yet to come across a comprehensive usage of non-chart based predictive application or even intepretation. It will be a great learning experience for me as well as many others here if you can take an example chart and apply the non-chart based varga principles as enumerated in classics in delineating some results. May be you can this data of anew born who has a health problem. 21/10/2013 11:57 am Bangalore.
I would also like to state my opinion on your comments on ayanamsha. I firmly beleive that while migrating or experiementing with a different ayanamsha, one will have to do a BTR wrt that ayanamsha.
Thanks for the response. Our ways of thinking are obviously quite different. Although I look at new ways with scepticism I do not reject it outright. I do respect classics but the indisputable ability of time to dissipate everything makes me sceptic about the the authenticity of the current available versions as well as our ability to "understand" the language which is set in a period of which we can only make educated guesses. For e.g., a simple factor like current days' population vs those of the days in which the classics were created (as against written which I beleive is much much later) can throw us off.
Be that as it may, I am quite open to both ideas (divisions as chart and not as chart) as I keep reading about both. As I said, I have come across quite a few example charts supporting the d-chart. I do understand that these could be accidental fits and may or may not stand a deeper scrutiny on a wider set of charts.
But, on the other hand I am yet to come across a comprehensive usage of non-chart based predictive application or even intepretation. It will be a great learning experience for me as well as many others here if you can take an example chart and apply the non-chart based varga principles as enumerated in classics in delineating some results. May be you can this data of anew born who has a health problem. 21/10/2013 11:57 am Bangalore.
I would also like to state my opinion on your comments on ayanamsha. I firmly beleive that while migrating or experiementing with a different ayanamsha, one will have to do a BTR wrt that ayanamsha.
LOVACRS
CRS ji,
Sure, there are verses that are mistranslated, too vague, misinterpreted or plain wrong but I am talking about Mathematical sections of major texts - that part pretty much clears that Planetary Aspects, Bhavas & hence Yogas etc. are only in the Rashi chart. There is no another separate "chart" to begin with because there is one Zodiac & hence one chart (representation of zodiac) only. But people who use/research Vargas as separate charts are free to do that, maybe something good will also come out of it (even though looking at Astrology today with this practice, it has become more of a joke esp. on the Internet, I trust you can see it too). And in any case it is not classical Astrology.
Now if the Mathematical part is questionable too then we are all on shakey ground. However its just plain numbers, there is little scope of misinterpreting/mistranslating numbers & they can't be vague. At best some of them can hold somewhat different values in different texts - still the underlying logic is the same i.e. a House is 30 degrees across while a Planetary Aspect can only be calculated (its value) within real zodiacal longitudes.
In the last post I indicated there is overwhelming amount of information in classical texts. It is not possible to remember it for many of us, so to delineate results without that knowledge is tricky. And trying to use separate D "charts" in an attempt to explain it is just excessive oversimplification. Just look at the number of threads explaining away everything while punching in wrong birth times (getting different lagnas) ..sometimes even without D "charts"! However let us give it a quick reading.
Moon rules over childhood, so lets see the chart from that perspective. The native is born within two days of a lunar eclipse. Being born around an eclipse (loosely speaking) creates issues in general.
8th lord (Moon) in 6th house (BPHS):
If the 8th lord is in the 6th, the native will win over his enemies, be afflicted by diseases and during childhood will incur danger through snakes and water.
- Notes (Santhanam): This position is not very favourable for one's health. This also indicates a long span of life.
Using Rashi Tulya Navamsa 8th lord Moon has given its Navamsa to 2nd house: If the 8th lord is in the 2nd, the native will be devoid of bodily vigour, will enjoy a little wealth and will not regain lost wealth.
Using Lahiri Moon is in Rashi Sandhi, is aspected by its own lord Venus which gives strength to Taurus. Moon is in the Navamsa of an exalted planet (Saturn). It has attained Chatra vaiseshikamsa i.e. more strength. If the birth time is accurate the Moon falls in the 64th Navamsa. One can combine these (Eclipise, Sandhi, Vaiseshikamsa, 64th Navamsa etc.) & make a judgement that it is posited fine for the chart but will create some issues on its own. I can try to find related Yogas if you can tell the nature of the problem. The Dasha of Sun-Rahu (in which the native is born) can cause skin disorders. From Moon the 6th has malefics (Mercury becomes a malefic with malefics), and 6th from 6th (Bhavat bhavam) is the same. Aspect of Jupiter provides relief.
For the Ayanamsa BTR, between Lahiri & PP the birth time will need to be adjusted by about 1 hour 45 minutes for everyone. That is too large a difference. So if PP is the correct Ayanamsa then many case studies done using Lahiri or KP are in questionable territory. And so are the new age theories used/based on those case studies.
Rathore
Sure, there are verses that are mistranslated, too vague, misinterpreted or plain wrong but I am talking about Mathematical sections of major texts - that part pretty much clears that Planetary Aspects, Bhavas & hence Yogas etc. are only in the Rashi chart. There is no another separate "chart" to begin with because there is one Zodiac & hence one chart (representation of zodiac) only. But people who use/research Vargas as separate charts are free to do that, maybe something good will also come out of it (even though looking at Astrology today with this practice, it has become more of a joke esp. on the Internet, I trust you can see it too). And in any case it is not classical Astrology.
Now if the Mathematical part is questionable too then we are all on shakey ground. However its just plain numbers, there is little scope of misinterpreting/mistranslating numbers & they can't be vague. At best some of them can hold somewhat different values in different texts - still the underlying logic is the same i.e. a House is 30 degrees across while a Planetary Aspect can only be calculated (its value) within real zodiacal longitudes.
In the last post I indicated there is overwhelming amount of information in classical texts. It is not possible to remember it for many of us, so to delineate results without that knowledge is tricky. And trying to use separate D "charts" in an attempt to explain it is just excessive oversimplification. Just look at the number of threads explaining away everything while punching in wrong birth times (getting different lagnas) ..sometimes even without D "charts"! However let us give it a quick reading.
Moon rules over childhood, so lets see the chart from that perspective. The native is born within two days of a lunar eclipse. Being born around an eclipse (loosely speaking) creates issues in general.
8th lord (Moon) in 6th house (BPHS):
If the 8th lord is in the 6th, the native will win over his enemies, be afflicted by diseases and during childhood will incur danger through snakes and water.
- Notes (Santhanam): This position is not very favourable for one's health. This also indicates a long span of life.
Using Rashi Tulya Navamsa 8th lord Moon has given its Navamsa to 2nd house: If the 8th lord is in the 2nd, the native will be devoid of bodily vigour, will enjoy a little wealth and will not regain lost wealth.
Using Lahiri Moon is in Rashi Sandhi, is aspected by its own lord Venus which gives strength to Taurus. Moon is in the Navamsa of an exalted planet (Saturn). It has attained Chatra vaiseshikamsa i.e. more strength. If the birth time is accurate the Moon falls in the 64th Navamsa. One can combine these (Eclipise, Sandhi, Vaiseshikamsa, 64th Navamsa etc.) & make a judgement that it is posited fine for the chart but will create some issues on its own. I can try to find related Yogas if you can tell the nature of the problem. The Dasha of Sun-Rahu (in which the native is born) can cause skin disorders. From Moon the 6th has malefics (Mercury becomes a malefic with malefics), and 6th from 6th (Bhavat bhavam) is the same. Aspect of Jupiter provides relief.
For the Ayanamsa BTR, between Lahiri & PP the birth time will need to be adjusted by about 1 hour 45 minutes for everyone. That is too large a difference. So if PP is the correct Ayanamsa then many case studies done using Lahiri or KP are in questionable territory. And so are the new age theories used/based on those case studies.
Rathore
Kindly post the picture of first page having the name of author and publisher of the book. Also give the name of chapter along with page number, you are reffering. regardsRe: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi
Postby rathore » 08 Mar 2014, 03:55
Anuradha ji,
Please see included comparisons for two versions of Mansagari. I have only highlighted more obvious differences, one who wants can look thoroughly & will find out more. This is just for a few pages & differences are on other pages too.
In the below two Anapha yoga is compared between two versions of Mansagari.
Mansagari Ver1 http://tinypic.com/r/k3vw9k/8
Mansagari Ver2 http://tinypic.com/r/2w4he1t/8
A person should not be too honest. Straight trees are cut first and honest people are screwed first.
“Reasoning with a drunkard is like
Going under water with a torch to seek for a drowning man.”
“Reasoning with a drunkard is like
Going under water with a torch to seek for a drowning man.”
Rathore ji,rathore wrote:CRS ji,
Sure, there are verses that are mistranslated, too vague, misinterpreted or plain wrong but I am talking about Mathematical sections of major texts - that part pretty much clears that Planetary Aspects, Bhavas & hence Yogas etc. are only in the Rashi chart. There is no another separate "chart" to begin with because there is one Zodiac & hence one chart (representation of zodiac) only. But people who use/research Vargas as separate charts are free to do that, maybe something good will also come out of it (even though looking at Astrology today with this practice, it has become more of a joke esp. on the Internet, I trust you can see it too). And in any case it is not classical Astrology.
Now if the Mathematical part is questionable too then we are all on shakey ground. However its just plain numbers, there is little scope of misinterpreting/mistranslating numbers & they can't be vague. At best some of them can hold somewhat different values in different texts - still the underlying logic is the same i.e. a House is 30 degrees across while a Planetary Aspect can only be calculated (its value) within real zodiacal longitudes.
In the last post I indicated there is overwhelming amount of information in classical texts. It is not possible to remember it for many of us, so to delineate results without that knowledge is tricky. And trying to use separate D "charts" in an attempt to explain it is just excessive oversimplification. Just look at the number of threads explaining away everything while punching in wrong birth times (getting different lagnas) ..sometimes even without D "charts"! However let us give it a quick reading.
Moon rules over childhood, so lets see the chart from that perspective. The native is born within two days of a lunar eclipse. Being born around an eclipse (loosely speaking) creates issues in general.
8th lord (Moon) in 6th house (BPHS):
If the 8th lord is in the 6th, the native will win over his enemies, be afflicted by diseases and during childhood will incur danger through snakes and water.
- Notes (Santhanam): This position is not very favourable for one's health. This also indicates a long span of life.
Using Rashi Tulya Navamsa 8th lord Moon has given its Navamsa to 2nd house: If the 8th lord is in the 2nd, the native will be devoid of bodily vigour, will enjoy a little wealth and will not regain lost wealth.
Using Lahiri Moon is in Rashi Sandhi, is aspected by its own lord Venus which gives strength to Taurus. Moon is in the Navamsa of an exalted planet (Saturn). It has attained Chatra vaiseshikamsa i.e. more strength. If the birth time is accurate the Moon falls in the 64th Navamsa. One can combine these (Eclipise, Sandhi, Vaiseshikamsa, 64th Navamsa etc.) & make a judgement that it is posited fine for the chart but will create some issues on its own. I can try to find related Yogas if you can tell the nature of the problem. The Dasha of Sun-Rahu (in which the native is born) can cause skin disorders. From Moon the 6th has malefics (Mercury becomes a malefic with malefics), and 6th from 6th (Bhavat bhavam) is the same. Aspect of Jupiter provides relief.
For the Ayanamsa BTR, between Lahiri & PP the birth time will need to be adjusted by about 1 hour 45 minutes for everyone. That is too large a difference. So if PP is the correct Ayanamsa then many case studies done using Lahiri or KP are in questionable territory. And so are the new age theories used/based on those case studies.
Rathore
Thanks for your time.
I will leave apart the interpretations based on rasi chart, since the two camps do not disagree on that, or rather, the disagreements are unrelated to these two methods.
Since the question being investigated relates to sixth house, I would request you to use the appropriate division and delineate the results. I would like to see a link between the method and vimsottari dasa lords (or any other conditional vudu dasa lords). Without such a link there is no predictive value. On the other hand, I have seen the camp arguing that divisions are charts being able to provide such a link.
You have of-course mentioned about Su-Ra periods causing particular problems. Using Lahiri and tropical year in JHora the problems relate to Su-Ju-Sa period in Vimsottari and Me-Ju-Me using Dwisaptati Sama dasa. If we were to look at Shashtiamsa lagnamsa falls in Leo which is 9th in Rasi owned by Su. Su itself is in Aries amsa its exaltation sign and 5th in Rasi chart (i.e., 12th to 6th). Ju is in Virgo amsa which is the 10th house in Rasi.
The reason for using a baby's chart is to assure that the birth time is straight from the hospital and not BTRred!
LOVACRS
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satishdesh
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Namaste rathorji
I think we can’t use PP lagna for differentiating twins chart. If we go by bphs dictum PP lagna use seems to be limited w.r.t. predictions. But for d-60 we have highest vimshopaka bala and sutra like ।। षष्ठ्यांशे अखिलम् ईक्षयेत् ।। [ Look for all happenings from D-60 chart ]. And PP lagna is more sensitive to btr as different softwares / panchangas are having different settings/standards. So if we have to follow present bphs version d-60 is having clear cut guide lines approval and at present i don’t have any clue for any other references.
I do not have good knowledge of nadi astrology to comment but from the experiences of many people most nadi astrologers rely on intuition/worship of some deity.
Your comment on chart presented by crs makes us to understand astrology in right perspective though I believe to use d charts as separate entity due to twin birth problem.
I wish to add my views for this using your technics. The MDL sun is weak is having bad influences of malefics{ I am using loose planetary connections } and close aspect of Saturn on lagna; mer, a weak depositor of LL jup are the root causes of health problems. If we use your technique LL jup gets connected to sixth and MDL sun to 12th ; and if at all we can consider saturns aspect on lagna and LL jup Saturn PDL had given health issues.
If we go for special dasha jup and mer are in sixth.
Namaste crsji
Your point is quite good and valid for justification. The problem is you are mixing parashari concepts with jaimini. It seems you must be following current practices on net. If we go through bphs we don’t have d-6 in d charts list. This d chart is from classical jaimini sutra text which practices different astrology concepts. So we are mixing both if we consider d-6.
From my little knowledge most texts use d-1/d-9 relative planet placements as these are having the actual physical presence with ease of calculations. Now a days all use powerful software’s which gives higher different d charts with same settings. { I do have jhora, PL and use online Kala }. You can verify me by using online Kala with same settings with free jhora in border line cases.
We are not having any BTR; so the d chart approved by parashara for such happenings is d-30; त्रिशांशके अरिष्टफलं ।। {great misfortune, bad happenings etc} I am getting lagna at 23*20 sagittarius with Gemini rising in d-30 with mer/sat in lagna. 8th lord in lagna can give diseases. Now use rashi tulya trishanshaka. MDL sun is in aries with ketu, ADL jup in libra with malefics and PDL Saturn in Gemini afflicting LL jup and lagna itself. To have more confirmation look at transits. Original LL, original DL all are under bad influences.
Read bphs for third lord in seventh; unhappiness in childhood; बाल्ये दुःखी ।। third lord Saturn giving his trishanshaka to seventh house.
Yes, this may not be correct tulya d chart application as higher d charts do have problems like exact no of ansha/rashi repetitions, exact mathematical value etc; which d-9 chart don’t have. But from my little understanding this may be one way to use d charts mapping.
Pure parashari do have more tools like partial aspects, avasthas etc which we can use to have less d charts use.
Regards
satish
I think we can’t use PP lagna for differentiating twins chart. If we go by bphs dictum PP lagna use seems to be limited w.r.t. predictions. But for d-60 we have highest vimshopaka bala and sutra like ।। षष्ठ्यांशे अखिलम् ईक्षयेत् ।। [ Look for all happenings from D-60 chart ]. And PP lagna is more sensitive to btr as different softwares / panchangas are having different settings/standards. So if we have to follow present bphs version d-60 is having clear cut guide lines approval and at present i don’t have any clue for any other references.
I do not have good knowledge of nadi astrology to comment but from the experiences of many people most nadi astrologers rely on intuition/worship of some deity.
Your comment on chart presented by crs makes us to understand astrology in right perspective though I believe to use d charts as separate entity due to twin birth problem.
I wish to add my views for this using your technics. The MDL sun is weak is having bad influences of malefics{ I am using loose planetary connections } and close aspect of Saturn on lagna; mer, a weak depositor of LL jup are the root causes of health problems. If we use your technique LL jup gets connected to sixth and MDL sun to 12th ; and if at all we can consider saturns aspect on lagna and LL jup Saturn PDL had given health issues.
If we go for special dasha jup and mer are in sixth.
Namaste crsji
Your point is quite good and valid for justification. The problem is you are mixing parashari concepts with jaimini. It seems you must be following current practices on net. If we go through bphs we don’t have d-6 in d charts list. This d chart is from classical jaimini sutra text which practices different astrology concepts. So we are mixing both if we consider d-6.
From my little knowledge most texts use d-1/d-9 relative planet placements as these are having the actual physical presence with ease of calculations. Now a days all use powerful software’s which gives higher different d charts with same settings. { I do have jhora, PL and use online Kala }. You can verify me by using online Kala with same settings with free jhora in border line cases.
We are not having any BTR; so the d chart approved by parashara for such happenings is d-30; त्रिशांशके अरिष्टफलं ।। {great misfortune, bad happenings etc} I am getting lagna at 23*20 sagittarius with Gemini rising in d-30 with mer/sat in lagna. 8th lord in lagna can give diseases. Now use rashi tulya trishanshaka. MDL sun is in aries with ketu, ADL jup in libra with malefics and PDL Saturn in Gemini afflicting LL jup and lagna itself. To have more confirmation look at transits. Original LL, original DL all are under bad influences.
Read bphs for third lord in seventh; unhappiness in childhood; बाल्ये दुःखी ।। third lord Saturn giving his trishanshaka to seventh house.
Yes, this may not be correct tulya d chart application as higher d charts do have problems like exact no of ansha/rashi repetitions, exact mathematical value etc; which d-9 chart don’t have. But from my little understanding this may be one way to use d charts mapping.
Pure parashari do have more tools like partial aspects, avasthas etc which we can use to have less d charts use.
Regards
satish
Namaste
Thanks & Regards
satish
Thanks & Regards
satish
Thanks Satish ji - appreciate your time
If you look at D-6 as a "chart" on the other hand, the explanations become obvious. The links to the period rulers is also good. I can accept this as co-incidental provided the non-chart method uses Shashtiamsa to explain this or even Navamsa since it is generally believed that Navamsa's coberage extends beyond 9th house matters. "Afflicted by malefics" is too general a statement and can not be related to a matter which is clearly assigned to 6th. Su as 9th lord afflicted by malefics can cause problems to the father.
I just used D-6 since the matter related to 6th house. I will be happy if the non-chart method is used on any division that BPHS refers to using any other example chart.If we go through bphs we don’t have d-6 in d charts list.
To start with D-60 may not be the right chart since this is a case of an ailment and can not be termed as great misfortune. Misfortune to the mother - yes, considering what she has to undergo, but not for the baby. All conjunctions/aspects that you have mentioned above (Su with Ke, Lagna and Sa, Sa/Ju) are invalid if you are not using it as a "chart".Now use rashi tulya trishanshaka. MDL sun is in aries with ketu, ADL jup in libra with malefics and PDL Saturn in Gemini afflicting LL jup and lagna itself. To have more confirmation look at transits. Original LL, original DL all are under bad influences.
Read bphs for third lord in seventh; unhappiness in childhood; बाल्ये दुःखी ।। third lord Saturn giving his trishanshaka to seventh house.
If you look at D-6 as a "chart" on the other hand, the explanations become obvious. The links to the period rulers is also good. I can accept this as co-incidental provided the non-chart method uses Shashtiamsa to explain this or even Navamsa since it is generally believed that Navamsa's coberage extends beyond 9th house matters. "Afflicted by malefics" is too general a statement and can not be related to a matter which is clearly assigned to 6th. Su as 9th lord afflicted by malefics can cause problems to the father.
LOVACRS
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satishdesh
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Namaste crsji
If I have to establish a new rule; a factual event verification of many charts for my personal acceptance and for universal acceptance hundreds of charts, is a must criteria which is beyond my capacity at present.
I prefer to follow rather try to understand present texts written by our ancient masters.
My humble request to you; please again read both mails of me and rathorji. I wrote about d-30 nor d-60. Rathorji applied rashi tulya navamansha to superimpose d-9 on d-1. I used d-30 instead of d-9. If you want more fine tuning apply d-45 { btr may be a need for this.} Ailment means suffering, may be less or more.
But this type of placement is recommended for d-9 as it has physical existence as nakshtra pada.
Sanskrit is very difficult to understand and apply. Read meaning of this अरिष्ट again. I have written one of the many meanings like bad happenings also. It gives nature and not intensity.
If we go by superimposition for d-6 as per rathorji I am not getting any link for this; please explain.
If we read अरिष्टाध्याय of bphs; weak moon, LL and sometimes sun is taken as main criteria. Even for penury also this is one of the standard in bphs as poverty deprive us of medical help.
Sun, moon indicate many things as physical, mental, internal, external karakas.
Regards
satish
If I have to establish a new rule; a factual event verification of many charts for my personal acceptance and for universal acceptance hundreds of charts, is a must criteria which is beyond my capacity at present.
I prefer to follow rather try to understand present texts written by our ancient masters.
My humble request to you; please again read both mails of me and rathorji. I wrote about d-30 nor d-60. Rathorji applied rashi tulya navamansha to superimpose d-9 on d-1. I used d-30 instead of d-9. If you want more fine tuning apply d-45 { btr may be a need for this.} Ailment means suffering, may be less or more.
But this type of placement is recommended for d-9 as it has physical existence as nakshtra pada.
Sanskrit is very difficult to understand and apply. Read meaning of this अरिष्ट again. I have written one of the many meanings like bad happenings also. It gives nature and not intensity.
If we go by superimposition for d-6 as per rathorji I am not getting any link for this; please explain.
If we read अरिष्टाध्याय of bphs; weak moon, LL and sometimes sun is taken as main criteria. Even for penury also this is one of the standard in bphs as poverty deprive us of medical help.
Sun, moon indicate many things as physical, mental, internal, external karakas.
Regards
satish
Namaste
Thanks & Regards
satish
Thanks & Regards
satish
Anuradha ji,
Above is what I have for the first page. I don't think its helpful so you can contact the publisher from the details given earlier in this thread if you like. It is a version published in 1884 supposedly which is why I have given comparisons of the same verses from different versions next to each other.
CRS ji,
I indicated Moon's Navamsa i.e. Navamsa Varga & application of Moon in it for Varga based interpretations. This is the correct method for getting into Vargas. However if you name the health issues faced, I can try to look for combinations for the same. Anuradha ji recently ran a thread on Dev Yoga and that is real Astrology without the need of D "chart" jugglery. Give those birth details to someone in the camp of separate D "charts" & he would come up with several D "chart" (and what not) justifications to prove why the rise happened at 32 years & will have separate explanations for all charts with Dev Yoga. But would any of those explanations be true? Most likely not. Hence the "link" you mention, please run it through negative testing on several charts.
Namaste Satish ji,
Yes it is tough to use PP lagna practically with all the settings contradictions. Similarly Shashtiamsa can't be as its too Ayanamsa specific. Of course people get into it anyway explaining away anything. Nadi as you know comes in many flavors (not talking about Deities, intuition just the straight up texts) & can differentiate twins. Other than that I don't know of a way to differentiate twins born very close to each other. However (I guess) it rules out that breaking of water & conception time to be considered as TOB (mentioned in some texts) but then I don't really know the medical processes. A few Vargas will change for sure between twins which gives them different (yet similar) personality & lives. For e.g. Cancer Lagna falling in Pisces Dwadasama is different from Cancer Lagna falling in Aries Dwadasamsa. Consequently other Signs in the Rashi chart will rise in different Dwadasamsas creating separate experiences for the twins. So there is no need of using them as independent charts. Understanding the nature of Signs & their mixing is enough.
Rathore
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satishdesh
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Namaste rathorji
Anuradha ji recently ran a thread on Dev Yoga and that is real Astrology without the need of D "chart" jugglery.
Will you please give link for above mentioned thread ?
Regards
satish
Anuradha ji recently ran a thread on Dev Yoga and that is real Astrology without the need of D "chart" jugglery.
Will you please give link for above mentioned thread ?
Regards
satish
Namaste
Thanks & Regards
satish
Thanks & Regards
satish
Namasthe Satish ji.satishdesh wrote:Namaste crsji
If I have to establish a new rule; a factual event verification of many charts for my personal acceptance and for universal acceptance hundreds of charts, is a must criteria which is beyond my capacity at present.
I prefer to follow rather try to understand present texts written by our ancient masters.
My humble request to you; please again read both mails of me and rathorji. I wrote about d-30 nor d-60. Rathorji applied rashi tulya navamansha to superimpose d-9 on d-1. I used d-30 instead of d-9. If you want more fine tuning apply d-45 { btr may be a need for this.} Ailment means suffering, may be less or more.
But this type of placement is recommended for d-9 as it has physical existence as nakshtra pada.
Sanskrit is very difficult to understand and apply. Read meaning of this अरिष्ट again. I have written one of the many meanings like bad happenings also. It gives nature and not intensity.
If we go by superimposition for d-6 as per rathorji I am not getting any link for this; please explain.
If we read अरिष्टाध्याय of bphs; weak moon, LL and sometimes sun is taken as main criteria. Even for penury also this is one of the standard in bphs as poverty deprive us of medical help.
Sun, moon indicate many things as physical, mental, internal, external karakas.
Regards
satish
Sorry, it was a typo - I meant D-30 and not D-60. I have no problem if you use any division mentioned in BPHS with any example chart (not necessarily what I have given), apply technicques that do not treat varga as charts and explain results relating to the appropriate Bhavas that the divisions indicate. I also do not question the analysis based on rasi chart since the discussion is not about using Rasi chart. As I mentioned earlier, I am keen to learn the non-chart technique. Unfortunately there seems to be veru scarce references in classics as actual application the rules in a cogent manner.
I have again gone through the posts by Rathore ji and yourself on the chart that I presented.
My specific comments on Rathoreji's post:
The baby does not lack bodily vigour. It is just suffering from an ailment.Using Rashi Tulya Navamsa 8th lord Moon has given its Navamsa to 2nd house: If the 8th lord is in the 2nd, the native will be devoid of bodily vigour, will enjoy a little wealth and will not regain lost wealth.
That apart, I would like to mention that applying the results of BPHS' Bhava Lord's placement on rasi-tulya placement appears to be unscientific at the least. More important, Moon is does not figure as the period lord, nor are all the period lords own or placed in either 6th in Rasi or in Makara navamsa (2 in Rasi with Moon). On the other hand Ve lord of 6th is in 2nd too using rasi-tulya navamsa and the corresponding result from the same chapter in BPHS is "If Ari’s Lord is in Dhan Bhava, the native will be adventurous, famous among his people, will live in alien countries, be happy, be a skilful speaker and be always interested in his own work".
Let me try to use this for the period lords Su-Ju-Sa
Su L9 is in 12th using rasi-tulya - "f Dharm’s Lord is in Vyaya Bhava, the native will incur loss of fortunes, will always
spend on auspicious acts and will become poor on account of entertaining guests." - Unrelated to ailment
Ju- L1 in 6th - "If Lagn’s Lord is in Ari Bhava and related to a malefic the native will be devoid of physical
happiness and will be troubled by enemies, if there is no benefic Drishti." - Unrelated to ailment. An interesting question is should we look at the benefic aspects on 6th house in Rasi chart or benefic aspects on Ju in rasi chart?
Ju L4 in 6th - "If Bandhu’s Lord is in Ari Bhava, the native will be devoid of maternal happiness, be given to anger, be a thief and a conjurer, be independent in action and be indisposed." . Although indisposition is far milder word than ailment, there is at least some reference.
Sa L2 in 4th -" If Dhan’s Lord is in Bandhu Bhava, the native will acquire all kinds of wealth. If Dhan’s Lord is exalted and is yuti with Guru, one will be equal to a king."-No reference is to ailment. Sa is in exaltation sign and although there is no yuti with Guru, there is a reasonably strong sambandha (5th aspect in Rasi chart and in Guru's amsa)
Sa L3 in 4th - "If Sahaj’s Lord is in Bandhu Bhava, the native will be happy, wealthy and intelligent, but will acquire a wicked spouse." No reference to ailment.
As regards your post using D-30, you have used conjunctions in D-30 which amunts to treating it as a chart. If you go through Rathore ji's posts the basic contention of non-chart proponents is that conjunctions and aspects are based on physical placement.
Sa L3 in 4th -
LOVACRS
Namasthe Rathore ji,
The reason why I did not mention the ailment so far is to avoid the popular practice of choosing rules for justifying an event that has already happened! If I am not able to make a full fledged prediction I hope to at least guess the vent on a given date. Anyway, the ailment is related to skin. You had mentioned that Su-Ra combo can cause skin problems. But all classics say malefics do well in 11th. Ra is not a period lord. Su is 9th lord in 11th albeit debiliated. Bhukthi lord is lagnesh in 4th aspecting own house and aspecting MDL Su. Sa is L2/L3 exalted in 11th. Based on this would we have predicted this problem in the current period?
There are gifted astrologers who do predict based on rasi chart alone. But, for your information, in the same hospital where this baby was born there were tw other births in the same lagna. Only this baby is suffering. I am yet to come across a single astrological rule that can stand negative testing. The common restraint that we use is "we need to study all factors". Chart or no chart, I am yet to come across some one who can for e g., guess what events could have happenned on some given dates. Of-course I am referring to significant events to deloneate which astrological rules do exist. Incidentally the baby enjoys Deva Yoga from Moon! And Kruttika-2 is in Rasi sandhi.
Ultimately, my submission is we should not reject propositions merely on the ground that they are not mentioned explicitly in classics. For that matter, is ayanamsha mentioned in BPHS?
I indicated Moon's Navamsa i.e. Navamsa Varga & application of Moon in it for Varga based interpretations. This is the correct method for getting into Vargas. However if you name the health issues faced, I can try to look for combinations for the same.
The reason why I did not mention the ailment so far is to avoid the popular practice of choosing rules for justifying an event that has already happened! If I am not able to make a full fledged prediction I hope to at least guess the vent on a given date. Anyway, the ailment is related to skin. You had mentioned that Su-Ra combo can cause skin problems. But all classics say malefics do well in 11th. Ra is not a period lord. Su is 9th lord in 11th albeit debiliated. Bhukthi lord is lagnesh in 4th aspecting own house and aspecting MDL Su. Sa is L2/L3 exalted in 11th. Based on this would we have predicted this problem in the current period?
Anuradha ji recently ran a thread on Dev Yoga and that is real Astrology without the need of D "chart" jugglery. Give those birth details to someone in the camp of separate D "charts" & he would come up with several D "chart" (and what not) justifications to prove why the rise happened at 32 years & will have separate explanations for all charts with Dev Yoga. But would any of those explanations be true? Most likely not. Hence the "link" you mention, please run it through negative testing on several charts.
There are gifted astrologers who do predict based on rasi chart alone. But, for your information, in the same hospital where this baby was born there were tw other births in the same lagna. Only this baby is suffering. I am yet to come across a single astrological rule that can stand negative testing. The common restraint that we use is "we need to study all factors". Chart or no chart, I am yet to come across some one who can for e g., guess what events could have happenned on some given dates. Of-course I am referring to significant events to deloneate which astrological rules do exist. Incidentally the baby enjoys Deva Yoga from Moon! And Kruttika-2 is in Rasi sandhi.
Ultimately, my submission is we should not reject propositions merely on the ground that they are not mentioned explicitly in classics. For that matter, is ayanamsha mentioned in BPHS?
LOVACRS
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satishdesh
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Namaste rathorji
I got that thread by anuradhaji .
Regards
satish
I got that thread by anuradhaji .
Regards
satish
Namaste
Thanks & Regards
satish
Thanks & Regards
satish
Bodily vigour is the subtle result (the main result is the Rashi chart 8th lord in 6th) & bodily vigour is subjective. However this result too happens (subtly) but since the Lagna is strong (aspected by its Lord) so one can synthesize.lovacrs wrote:The baby does not lack bodily vigour. It is just suffering from an ailment.
That apart, I would like to mention that applying the results of BPHS' Bhava Lord's placement on rasi-tulya placement appears to be unscientific at the least. More important, Moon is does not figure as the period lord, nor are all the period lords own or placed in either 6th in Rasi or in Makara navamsa (2 in Rasi with Moon).
Rashi-Tulya method is used by advanced traditional Astrologers & is a method approved by texts (unlike D "chart" theory). And D "chart" theory is to be rejected as it is out of question because of the mathematical ways by which aspects, conjunctions etc. are defined by the Sages.
Moon rules over childhood (whether its Dasha runs or not), the child is born close to a Lunar eclipse, the Moon is in Sandhi, its placement is rough & is 8th lord. That is enough to cause a minor ailment on its own (minor because its lord aspects it too, giving strength to 6th house & it is exalted). Many things work independent of Dashas (e.g. Dev Yoga) so Dasha lord necessarily don't need to be taken into account all the time & neither the relevant Varga. Planets give their results during certain ages depending on their placement i.e. Dasha independent. For e.g. Sun in 4th gives respect in the 32nd year. I am guessing you prefer a methodical way using Dasha lords & concerned Vargas. That is not the case always & is one of the reasons of absurd theories out there trying to link up everything. That would be fine but only in the framework of correct usage of fundamentals.
1st house represents skin, its Karaka is Sun, hence damage to Sun can cause skin issues. Rahu has skin diseases which is probably why Sages say that Sun-Rahu dasha can cause skin disorders when associated with malefics/weak (Sun is debilitated, conjunct malefics), so is Rahu. The Dasha was Sun-Rahu (even if the problems showed up later, we don't know if they were there from birth or shorty thereafter). Mercury rules over skin, when associated with malefics it causes skin problems. This is more so in Martian Signs (here its in Libra though). 11th house is 6th from 6th & in this case 6th from Moon also which has malefics only (Mercury becomes a malefic with malefics). Afflicted Mercury in 6th gives skin diseases although it does that more in Martian signs. Mercury is the conditional Dasha lord.
Yavana Jataka says:
The other children will have some skin problems for sure at some point but lets see why the birth chart in question has more of it:
Horasara says:
Move the birth time ahead by 16 seconds & its Vrishchik Navamsa rising with Sun in it (Dasha lord)- a malefic, is Yuti with Vrishchik Navamsa. These verses don't have to be taken literally, more so because leprosy is a general term used in place of skin disorders (such as texts talking about people dying by some placements, whereas it just means some physical uneasiness).
Without knowing such Yogas (as above) one can try N number of theories to justify it, but will mostly be wrong. This is why one needs to go through at least two major texts cover to cover. Otherwise using lord of this in that & that house means this, that planet does that & then expand it to Vargas & explaining away anything, is just ignorance.
Also its seen that just by Lagna & its Navamsa the result has been told, without getting into any other Varga. Or perhaps it has taken the rising Trimsamsas into account. This is what is to be researched (and not D "charts")
Synthesize all the points above & a skin problem looks likely. For me its not possible to remember all this & I have to go through texts to confirm as after reading them I know where to look but I cannot keep it in mind. In other words, I am not qualified enough to give Astrological advice & for that matter most are not. Most have not gone through a single Text. Please save yourself from Astrologers today, this is my general message to all.
Primarily Sun has caused it, proper remedial measure for Sun will provide relief to the child.
Ayanamsa has a reference in BPHS in Ayana Bala although that is subject to some controversy. BPHS is not as reliable a text in some sections (because it is an amalgamation & with newer theories added later) as texts by the scholar Varaha Mihira.
Rathore
Huien1 ji, I am glad you find the posts useful. There is another thread (How is a D10 chart read) in this section talking about Dasamsa. I hope that helps. I don't know if Rashi Tulya method can be expanded to other Vargas. Logically it seems right but I haven't come across a reference yet to be sure. Generally planets placed in favorable Dasamsas give easier rise in their Dashas.
Daisy Priya ji, Thanks for the kind words & I am glad you find it useful. You can contact Anuradha ji (on this thread) for chart reading as he is better versed with timing methods than I am.
Rathore
Daisy Priya ji, Thanks for the kind words & I am glad you find it useful. You can contact Anuradha ji (on this thread) for chart reading as he is better versed with timing methods than I am.
Rathore
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Dear Rathore ji,
I have a weird sense of humour! My apologies in advance for being born with that handicap
Retrograde AK, perhaps...?
Here we are in 2014, we are jyotishis and enamoured by that Ancient Shaastra that on some internet forums becomes a Shastra? The battles never end!
I see us moderns as Bungee Jumpers or cable-riders! We are at the brink of a precipice, determined to cross the river thousands of feet below, after paying money for the ride to the folks that somehow created the cable that stretches from this precipice to the next, thousands of feet over the river (could be the grand canyon if some entreprenures are listening-in...?)
Scriptures, though sometimes sketchy, are like those cables strung over the valley that we wish to cross for the adrenaline-experience?
What else do we have to hang on to, for dear life, during this jyotish-journey that we collectively embark upon?
Other than the experience -- collected bit by bit, often empirically? All, part and parcel of our learning, and without the scriptures, fragmented they might be -- THOSE are the CABLEs that through millenia sustained our ride...?
Love, Light, Reality?
Rohiniranjan
I have a weird sense of humour! My apologies in advance for being born with that handicap
Retrograde AK, perhaps...?Here we are in 2014, we are jyotishis and enamoured by that Ancient Shaastra that on some internet forums becomes a Shastra? The battles never end!
I see us moderns as Bungee Jumpers or cable-riders! We are at the brink of a precipice, determined to cross the river thousands of feet below, after paying money for the ride to the folks that somehow created the cable that stretches from this precipice to the next, thousands of feet over the river (could be the grand canyon if some entreprenures are listening-in...?)
Scriptures, though sometimes sketchy, are like those cables strung over the valley that we wish to cross for the adrenaline-experience?
What else do we have to hang on to, for dear life, during this jyotish-journey that we collectively embark upon?
Other than the experience -- collected bit by bit, often empirically? All, part and parcel of our learning, and without the scriptures, fragmented they might be -- THOSE are the CABLEs that through millenia sustained our ride...?
Love, Light, Reality?
Rohiniranjan
Rohiniranjan
Rathore ji,
1. Moon does not get blemished by 8th lordship. It is in its Mooltrikon cum exaltation sign. Rasi sandhi can be a major dosha for Sun (Sankranthi dosha) but not for moon. Moon is in Simhasanamsha.
2. The tithi being Trithiya it is not fair to say it is close to eclipse. Proximity to eclipse is seen in hours and not in tithis.
3. I do not agree that any astro rule works independent of dasha. Many yogas do not fructify simply because the result yielding dasas dont run. If this were not so fates of individuals born in the same lagna on the same day would be the same. I also do not think any classic says that some results work independently of Dasas. And even if they do, the fact that they have no predictability makes them inconsequential for an astrologer. Based on the natural age of a planet they are supposed to play a more significant role in specific age of natives, but yet as per the dasas. For e.g.,
4. Yogas are a much discussed subject in astro communities. I am yet to come across a single yoga that unfailingly gives results including the unambiguous Dharma-Karmadhipathi yoga. In fact in the chart we will also have to answer why VRY is not working?
1. Moon is in Simhasanamsha and has a good shabbala. We will have to figure out why this is not working.
2. How do we link this to dasa lords? Antara lord Sa provides a weak link as Navamsa dispositor with Su being L8 from there and Ju being in 6th from there. "Weak" because Sa then becomes lagnesh and L2, exalted in 10th! In Dwisapatathi sama dasa although Me is L6 from here it is also L9 placed in 10th (5th from 6th) and Ve is L5 and L10 placed in 11th.
May be we should look at the Navamsa results for the dasa lords.
Although analysis based on Rasi is not at dispute, I still would like to mention some points.Moon rules over childhood (whether its Dasha runs or not), the child is born close to a Lunar eclipse, the Moon is in Sandhi, its placement is rough & is 8th lord. That is enough to cause a minor ailment on its own (minor because its lord aspects it too, giving strength to 6th house & it is exalted). Many things work independent of Dashas (e.g. Dev Yoga) so Dasha lord necessarily don't need to be taken into account all the time & neither the relevant Varga. Planets give their results during certain ages depending on their placement i.e. Dasha independent. For e.g. Sun in 4th gives respect in the 32nd year. I am guessing you prefer a methodical way using Dasha lords & concerned Vargas. That is not the case always & is one of the reasons of absurd theories out there trying to link up everything. That would be fine but only in the framework of correct usage of fundamentals.
1. Moon does not get blemished by 8th lordship. It is in its Mooltrikon cum exaltation sign. Rasi sandhi can be a major dosha for Sun (Sankranthi dosha) but not for moon. Moon is in Simhasanamsha.
2. The tithi being Trithiya it is not fair to say it is close to eclipse. Proximity to eclipse is seen in hours and not in tithis.
3. I do not agree that any astro rule works independent of dasha. Many yogas do not fructify simply because the result yielding dasas dont run. If this were not so fates of individuals born in the same lagna on the same day would be the same. I also do not think any classic says that some results work independently of Dasas. And even if they do, the fact that they have no predictability makes them inconsequential for an astrologer. Based on the natural age of a planet they are supposed to play a more significant role in specific age of natives, but yet as per the dasas. For e.g.,
4. Yogas are a much discussed subject in astro communities. I am yet to come across a single yoga that unfailingly gives results including the unambiguous Dharma-Karmadhipathi yoga. In fact in the chart we will also have to answer why VRY is not working?
This is an interesting reference and thanks for bringing this up. Although this certainly comes quite close to the problem I would like to point out:"The Moon in this place in a navamsa of Pisces, Aries or Capricorn and aspected by malefic ... leprosy. If aspected by a benefit planet, one who has an itching disease"
1. Moon is in Simhasanamsha and has a good shabbala. We will have to figure out why this is not working.
2. How do we link this to dasa lords? Antara lord Sa provides a weak link as Navamsa dispositor with Su being L8 from there and Ju being in 6th from there. "Weak" because Sa then becomes lagnesh and L2, exalted in 10th! In Dwisapatathi sama dasa although Me is L6 from here it is also L9 placed in 10th (5th from 6th) and Ve is L5 and L10 placed in 11th.
May be we should look at the Navamsa results for the dasa lords.
If you are discarding Divisional charts then such yuti of objects/reference points that are in different zodiacal signs in rasi chart should have no meaning. The two Vrishchika navamsas fall in two different signs.Move the birth time ahead by 16 seconds & its Vrishchik Navamsa rising with Sun in it (Dasha lord)- a malefic, is Yuti with Vrishchik Navamsa.
LOVACRS
