Domestic Abuse/Abusive Childhood

[intstud]

What shows signs of domestic abuse/abusive childhood in a chart?

[uspa]

I read somewhere that Mars in 4th house would lead to a abusive childhood

[Aaron]

Hey Intstud,

Funny, I was feeling a little drawn to LoVA today and I see your post.

I had watched a video by KRS where he discusses this. He mentions Mars in Cancer in certain degrees as indicative of this. And, if I recall correctly, he also mentions Moon in Scorpio as indicative of feeling that the parenting was inadequate/lacking, especially the mothering.

Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZQ98sB8-oY (haven't seen it A-Z right now, so you'll need to get the exact details yourself)

I am not very sure what you mean by 'abusive childhood' (as in the standard Indian-style parenting ?? or something else??) ...

Anyhow, I guess, the usual suspects would be afflictions to/by (will it be 'by') Sun + Moon + 4th house + 5th house + 9th house. (I guess, the karakas also get looked at.)

In spiritual circles, the general belief is, if you start out life with a disadvantaged childhood, you generally end up discovering a lot of inner resources to fall back on ... basically, the pain/hurt is seen as a 'gift'.

In psychology, too, most people who recount traumatic childhoods do label themselves as 'survivors'. In fact, since we have already touched upon narcissism on this forum, I must tell you there are forums dedicated to (adult) children of narcissistic parents. The children use these forums to find support -- mental and emotional -- on managing their lives.

Also, if 9th or 4th house get tenanted by malefics ...

And, I made a discovery ... which others here might think is but obvious, but to me it is a new way of looking at things ... I think I located what can be identified as 'the family curse' (OK I am exaggerating my ability to make connections ) ... It is the 2nd house.

When I say 'family curse', I don't mean anything like what SJC describes ... I mean it in the psychological sense of the term ... where the dysfunctionality seen in the previous generation is (automatically) perpetuated and, thereby, launches a new cycle of abuse/dysfunctionality ... Unless someone is born/comes along who breaks the old way of doing things ...

I say the 2nd house because it also rules speech and as Barbara Pijan Lama says 'hoarded wealth'. Well, in this case, the 'legacy' is the dysfunctional ways of thinking and being. All of these get reinforced on a daily basis because of the way the family/community talks. Self-talk is a major indicator of how one will treat oneself. (You can't change it by merely practising meaningless affirmations ... boo! to all the Law of Attraction practitioners.)

What I am trying to say here is, if day in and day out, the family/group/country keeps telling itself that this is all that it deserves and that it cannot do better or that it is not worthy of anything better, then when 'better' does come along, the group (2nd housers) is going to push it away. And, on top of it, feel virtuous about living in self-denial

...

Just some thoughts.

Best wishes,
Aaron

[Aaron]

And, yeah, to add to that KRS video thingy ... I used to know a guy who had Moon and Mercury in Scorpio and Mars in Cancer. Sorry, but I have absolutely no idea about his lagna.

He was definitely traumatised. He had issues with both his parents and an elder brother who was very weak minded. This guy was pretty egoistic. But then he had gone to the school of hard knocks and he was completely self-made. He used to love travelling to the mountains and was a mountaineer. He used to earn by his wits by taking foreigners on hiking trips and keeping them entertained with stories on India (some of those he would make up on the spot.)

Very, very intelligent fellow, but highly judgmental. (I think he also had a retro Jupiter in Gemini and his Sun and Venus were in Libra.)

[intstud]

Aaron...I bet it's telepathy..lol.
Hmm...yes, I agree about the Mo in Scor theory here. Lol..you know that I do,
I'm talking about families that are dysfunctional to the core...I mean...physical/verbal abuse here.
And yeah, I do agree that the judgemental, "I know it all and I can never be wrong...and if you think differently, you're wrong" attitude is a Jup thing.

[drnature88]

Hi Instud ,
4th house may have get disturbed ... and also Moon have some malific aspects or conjunction ...
it may lead to abusive childhood ...

[Aaron]

I'm talking about families that are dysfunctional to the core...I mean...physical/verbal abuse here.

I guess the sixth lord and Mars might have a say in this. And, if the sixth lord also happens to lord another house, then I guess that house's matters may also become a reason for causing enmity. For example, say if the sixth also lords the 11th, and the two are in the 9th house, it may be that friends become a source of/reason for contention with a father/teacher/authority figure.

(This is based on my limited understanding of Vedic astrology ... I may be completely wrong.)

And, I assume, other dusthamsa lords might too be said to be misery givers. Similarly, I would not rule out the involvement of A-8 (kashta pada), A-6 (shatru karaka), gnatikaraka (chara karaka for strife and enmity as also spiritual sadhana) and Saturn/Ketu.

Rahu can amplify ... but amplifies aggressive tendencies mostly while in the company of malefics. In the company of benefics, it may make the person too convinced of their own "goodness" so much so that the person thinks that they are doing something good even though their behaviour may be perceived as being tyrannical or overbearing or in some way putting pressure on others. (This is just my observation ... I could be wrong.)

Sign-wise ... Leo, Aries, Sagittarius, Scorpio, Aquarius and Virgo (maybe) may turn out to be karmic sectors for abuse to play out (depending on what houses they rule and who is tenanting them). Any sign can be a problem area, depending on the lagna, but what I mean is these signs have a certain aggressiveness to them.

EDIT: Forgot to mention ... I think the 3rd lord might also affect domestic relationships. It is 12th to 4th house. And, it is a kama sthana (which could denote uncontrolled expectations and if the expectations are not met, maybe, the situation turns explosive??). And, in the context of the third house, let me also mention the following psychological process...

• In dysfunctional families (and even in the corporate world ... and anywhere where there are more than two people) there is one process that plays itself out with utter regularity ... It is called triangulation. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangulat ... chology%29
  
  [There are other uses for the word triangulation, but this is the one used in the context of dysfunctional relationships (familial or professional).]

And yeah, I do agree that the judgemental, "I know it all and I can never be wrong...and if you think differently, you're wrong" attitude is a Jup thing.

Yes, Jupiter has a terrible tendency to be self-righteous.

Best wishes,
Aaron

[elipsis]

Yes, Jupiter has a terrible tendency to be self-righteous.

Best wishes,
Aaron

Why would being self-righteous be terrible? This problem is not with Jupiter but with the native itself. Everyone wants jupiter for expanding their wealth, health, longevity and prosperity - being the greatest benefic and quite possibly the only real benefic. But when it comes being right its terrible?

Being self-righteous isn't impracticable, there are ways to maintain that balance. The only real complaint that people have with jupiter is that he gets in the way of wrong doing and doesn't really nurture those tendencies. People who complain about their parents - in most cases have encountered that strict upbringing - but that doesn't really equate to abusive parenting. Being strict and not nurturing your delusions isn't bad parenting and there must be a distinction particularly in this forum because No planet can play a role of abusive parent in astrology.

[intstud]

Ellipsis, we are not talking about strict parenting here, as I already mentioned. We're talking about highly physically and mentally abusive households (exceptional cases)...and this isn't just about the child...includes all members.
Every planet has it's positives and negatives...and the negative thing about Jup is a highly judgemental nature and the inability to respect other perspectives..and this is a fact.
Having a strong Jup in a chart is the biggest blessing, no doubt...but everything comes with a lesson.

[elipsis]

There is nothing negative about any planet other than Rahu and Ketu - they go off the track. Each planetary qualities translates itself into human behavioral pattern, these patterns under normal circumstances are well represented in the society, the problems not the planets but the nodes that disturb the normal pattern. Being judgmental or having pride and following a certain accepted ethic is not to be construed as a negative because these are normal human tendencies that have become in many cases a recipe for success.

Planets on the whole do not bring the misfortune onto the individual, its the individual who brings doom upon himself. These planets with such exalted mythology bring moral and ethical codes to all of humanity through their stories so they cannot be a part of something as cheap as domestic abuse. Thats the role of nodes and of native's own bad karma, people reap what they sow.

[intstud]

"There is nothing negative about any planet other than Rahu and Ketu"
The nodes are negative for sure, but whether the former bit holds absolute truth or not, I'd leave others (with far more knowledge than what we possess) to decide.

I don't think Aaron meant Jup has any part to play in extreme abuse situations..coz that's not true.

"Being judgmental or having pride and following a certain accepted ethic is not to be construed as a negative because these are normal human tendencies that have become in many cases a recipe for success."
Yes, these are human tendencies...and it's normal for humans to err. It's absolutely normal to follow a path you consider right...but what is wrong is disregarding anyone else who chooses to follow a different path.
It's like a Rorschach test...we all see different images in the inkblots...your image is as correct/visible as mine but you may not see what I see and vice versa.

[Aaron]

Elipsis,

I understand you have a personal fondness for Jupiter. And, I am happy for you. But, I am sure you would also agree that just because one likes a certain planet, or a component, in astrology, it doesn't mean that everything about that component is good and wonderful.

Let us say my Mars is functioning well. But, I see someone complain about Mars-related problems. Does it give me the right to dismiss their reality because it doesn't match mine? Or can I run down or diminish their truths just because I have come to develop a liking for Mars because of how it functions for me?

And, because I am convinced that something about me, or my way of life, is right, should I put myself at the centre of the universe and assume that everyone should think like me, talk like me, feel like me or have the same measures to gauge the world?

Why would being self-righteous be terrible? This problem is not with Jupiter but with the native itself. Everyone wants jupiter for expanding their wealth, health, longevity and prosperity - being the greatest benefic and quite possibly the only real benefic. But when it comes being right its terrible?

Being self-righteous isn't impracticable, there are ways to maintain that balance. The only real complaint ....

There is a major difference between being 'right' and being 'self-righteous'. (See underlined portions in your post.) You seem to be confusing the two. The two are just not interchangeable.

The only real complaint that people have with jupiter is that he gets in the way of wrong doing and doesn't really nurture those tendencies.

You (or other Jupiterarians) are not the only ones with a grip on what is moral or right. Respect that others also have their own wisdom and way of life. As long as they don't hurt others, they have a right to practise their version of what life is.

People who complain about their parents - in most cases have encountered that strict upbringing - but that doesn't really equate to abusive parenting.

Not true. Here you are assuming that all/most parents are created equal. They are not. I don't think you have a lived idea of what being in a dysfunctional family entails. You are just engaging with the concept of 'abusive' in a theoretical manner.

Let me tell you something about Indians... After all, it is important to know the psyche of one's own community...

Indians are a docile lot and they also lack critical thinking skills. They can't think for themselves. As a result, they glorify being mental slaves of the previous generation/parents/any authority figure. Whether you glorify this as 'tradition' or as 'culture', it is still a glorification of mental slavery.

Most Indians suffer from the Stockholm Syndrome, where the hostage falls in love with his/her captors and also starts making excuses for them and their way of being.

Unless people grow out of the shadow of their parents, they will never really come into their own.

And by growing out of their shadow, I don't mean necessarily establishing oneself economically in a way to buy one's independence. You can be in the same unit but yet be master of your soul. Which sadly most Indians aren't -- not even the so-called 'educated' lot. They still look to their parents and their lives for cues on how to conduct their own.

The reason Indians do this is that they are not independent thinkers. And that is because, right from childhood, the fear of failure is instilled in us. As a result, we want to live a 'safe' life and never attempt to find out who we truly are. We just live the 'handout life'. Someone hands us a script and we try to live it. To the dot.

CONTD

[elipsis]

"There is nothing negative about any planet other than Rahu and Ketu"
The nodes are negative for sure, but whether the former bit holds absolute truth or not, I'd leave others (with far more knowledge than what we possess) to decide.

I don't think Aaron meant Jup has any part to play in extreme abuse situations..coz that's not true.

"Being judgmental or having pride and following a certain accepted ethic is not to be construed as a negative because these are normal human tendencies that have become in many cases a recipe for success."
Yes, these are human tendencies...and it's normal for humans to err. It's absolutely normal to follow a path you consider right...but what is wrong is disregarding anyone else who chooses to follow a different path.
It's like a Rorschach test...we all see different images in the inkblots...your image is as correct/visible as mine but you may not see what I see and vice versa.

Its not for planets to err - they do their job. You cannot find flaws in the planet because they behave exactly as they are supposed to behave and in a righteous way, its time for people to get past the planetary flaws and look upon their own. If the law of karma is correct then these planets are giving you exactly what you deserve and not what you want.

[elipsis]

There is a major difference between being 'right' and being 'self-righteous'. (See underlined portions in your post.) You seem to be confusing the two. The two are just not interchangeable.

Being right and self-righteous is one and the same, being self-righteous needn't necessarily be a bad thing. You may have a problem with that concept but thats only because of certain planetary combination that gives you the luxury of overriding the true meaning of that word.

You (or other Jupiterarians) are not the only ones with a grip on what is moral or right. Respect that others also have their own wisdom and way of life. As long as they don't hurt others, they have a right to practise their version of what life is.

You don't get it. If you are morally right then Jupiter itself is placed properly in your chart, you cannot judge people by excluding the planets out of the equation.

Not true. Here you are assuming that all/most parents are created equal. They are not. I don't think you have a lived idea of what being in a dysfunctional family entails. You are just engaging with the concept of 'abusive' in a theoretical manner.

You cannot write off your karma onto somebody else, its your inherent flaws that has led you to that situation. If you don't believe that you have no business in this metaphysical forum.

Indians are a docile lot and they also lack critical thinking skills. They can't think for themselves. As a result, they glorify being mental slaves of the previous generation/parents/any authority figure. Whether you glorify this as 'tradition' or as 'culture', it is still a glorification of mental slavery.

Indians have a culture of 10,000 years - a lot has happened over that period. But unlike americans, Indians never occupied a country by chasing of the natives and developing a culture less society- that promoted slavery and marginalized other religions. The proper culture Indians practice is far better off than any other country, it teaches us to respect people.

Unless people grow out of the shadow of their parents, they will never really come into their own.
And by growing out of their shadow, I don't mean necessarily establishing oneself economically in a way to buy one's independence. You can be in the same unit but yet be master of your soul. Which sadly most Indians aren't -- not even the so-called 'educated' lot. They still look to their parents and their lives for cues on how to conduct their own.

Like I said - when you consider parents to be some competitors and you ought to do better than them its the culture of the west because kids are thought to see every human in a materialistic manner leading to easy divorces, gun culture and moral bankruptcy.

[elipsis]

If you were at least a counsellor or a psychotherapist, I might still want to take a second look at the 'wisdom' you demonstrate. No. You are in this thread not because your heart bleeds for anyone, but because your darling Jupiter was called into question. You don't care about people, but you are madly in love with planets, nay, just Jupiter. And that too only because of what it does for you.

I'm in this forum purely because of astrology. It is you who is in the wrong place, now I don't think its worthwhile to respond to your personal remarks but you pushed it too far.

[R V RAMANAN]

Dear Aaron and Elipsis,

Please do not get personal with anyone.

Regards
ramanan

[Aaron]

I am sorry, Elipsis, if you feel that I made a personal remark. It is not intended to hurt you or anyone in any way. I don't know if you know this, but I do respect your learning. At the same time, I also cannot deny my personal truths just to show respect to another person.

I also do not appreciate the fact that when I am discussing something that may be a problematic placement, or a personal suffering, you deny the reality of the problem basing only your personal preference or your personal experience.

It is like this ... Maybe you never suffer from colds, but if someone around you does and they are discussing it, can you deny their suffering?

Elipsis, one more thing, if you are to objectively analyse your own behaviour in this thread, I am sure you would also see that with your first response itself you established a belligerent tone. And, you also came across as being dismissive of problems that people from abusive families face.

I hope to God (universal force) that you never have to see such a situation in your life where you are caught in the pain of relationship issues (of any kind). Even though you will learn a lot and very quickly, it is not the kind of suffering I would wish on anyone.

Now how you choose to view our interaction today, I leave it to you.


Ramanan ji,

Point taken. In fact, I never got into this thread with the intent of hurting anyone. But, yes, you could say I got a tad carried away. I also do not like the idea of taking extremes. It serves no one any good.

I shall do my best to stay away from causing hurt to anyone.

Best wishes,
Aaron

[R V RAMANAN]

Dear Aaron,

Thank you....

Regards
ramanan

[intstud]

Let me establish my own opinion here by saying that I agree 100% with what Aaron said.

[Anandham]

Aaron, I have to agree with elipsis. Not because he has been helpful in offering astrological analysis. But because, I used to think like you do in my teens and twenties. Since then, I have become a mother, have had the experience of living in three continents. And with that experience I have come to change my thoughts.

Dysfunctional parenting is not the exclusive domain of Indians. There is more to parenting than just allowing for individualism to shine through. There are many practices in the west like letting a mere infant cry and cry alone in the crib in its own room at night- its called sleep training! I also deplore the casual attitude to divorce. Children are born not knowing who their father is or the parents might divorce and make blended families. Sometimes, the new 'partner' is hardly the best choice for vulnerable children. Don't get me wrong- abusive situations in whatever form should be grounds for divorce, but you can hardly claim that the extremely high divorce rates all stem from such grounds. Children are encouraged to be independent because parents want to reclaim their individual lives.

I would rather that love than neglect. If you notice, despite all the individual freedom, people in the west seem to be rather fragile emotionally. Children in suburbia here, with all the electronic gadgets, cool toys are far more pouty and angst ridden as compared to those living with a lot less elsewhere in the world. Have you ever noticed those happy, beaming faces of children in the 'less developed' countries? I observe a change in suburban Indian children too.

I don't disagree that parental influence can get over bearing in India- I think, over centuries a lot of values have changed form and meaning with the cultural invasions that happened. I think the sheeple attitude prevalent in India has its genesis in this. There will always be people who bend scriptures to agree with their personal choices. Culture should be in the process of refinement keeping core values at heart. I disagree with aping and emulating other cultures for the sake of promoting individuality. There are better things to learn from the west, such as a solid work ethic, respect for people irrespective of social/economic status and their great civic sense.

[intstud]

Ojas,dysfunctional parenting is not the exclusive domain of Indians is absolutely correct...but we're not talking about a country specific problem here. I started the thread wanted to discuss domestic violence (which happens all over the world) and not strict parenting issues. Please understand. Violence is never justified...and I dunno who turned this topic into parenting variations. The statement Ellipsis made was extremely insensitive towards people who've been through such kinda abuse. It clearly showed he had no idea what I was trying to talk about in this thread. He's lucky to have never encountered such kinda violence in life...but saying stuff like "people reap what they sow" for acts like these is a shameful statement which, perhaps, could (in his opinion) be said to justify almost every kinda devious acts including terrorism, rape, murder, etc.

[Ekalavya]

@intstud, what elipsis ji said is 100% correct. You reap what you sow, that's the ultimate law of karma.

[intstud]

Eklavya, so you're justifying all the violent acts?
Anyway, just go back to the beginning of the thread...the question was what factors in a chart might indicate signs of a child suffering from domestic violence...I asked "what" and not "why".
Of course Karma gets the world going....but a simple question about possible.planetary combinations was dragged into God alone knows what. And sorry, Ellipsis only joined the conversation when the planet Jup's attributes were questioned (while I don't think Jup has any role to play when it comes to violence) and his sole purpose was to defend the points so his ego wouldn't be left starving.

If you're that peeved by my asking about possible planetary combinations that might indicate that a child may go or have gone through domestic violence or a disturbing childhood in life, and say that it's all karma...what is the point of your joining an astro site in the first place? By coming up with possible indications we could be more protective towards a child at risk.

[intstud]

And, for the love of God, this isn't about strict parenting/upbringing . What I'm talking about here is domestic violence....having to see members of the family violently beat each other up...break into bloody, abusive fights, etc. These are criminal acts that scar children (both physically and emotionally) forever and cannot, ever be justified.

Of course Karma is the root cause of everything...but proper use of Vedic astro could, at least, try and cleanse some of the bad effects or come up with remedies that might make things a little better. That's the whole purpose of my creating this thread.

[Ekalavya]

Eklavya, so you're justifying all the violent acts?

No i'm not

Anyway, just go back to the beginning of the thread...the question was what factors in a chart might indicate signs of a child suffering from domestic violence...I asked "what" and not "why".
Of course Karma gets the world going....but a simple question about possible.planetary combinations was dragged into God alone knows what.

You don't have to mention this in every post, i know what you originally asked and my reply was not for that post (cause i don't know the combinations, as i'm not an astrologer). My reply was to your "people reap what they sow" post/comment only.

And sorry, Ellipsis only joined the conversation when the planet Jup's attributes were questioned (while I don't think Jup has any role to play when it comes to violence) and his sole purpose was to defend the points so his ego wouldn't be left starving.

Again, why are you trying to get personal with elipsis ji?

If you're that peeved by my asking about possible planetary combinations that might indicate that a child may go or have gone through domestic violence or a disturbing childhood in life, and say that it's all karma...what is the point of your joining an astro site in the first place?

Again you're trying to twist things here, i'm not peeved about you or anyone else for asking questions regarding "planetary combinations" and i certainly din' say that "hey it's all karma... let's give up and die" so stop putting words in my mouth.