Is destiny really predestined?...Fate Vs Freewill

[deeps]

Dear All,

I have always been a staunch supporter of free will and in simple terms, A man is a creator of his own destiny. However, ever since, i am into astrology and few predictions coming true, I sometime question myself, do we really have free will?

Recently, I was asked by someone about his coming periods. Libra lagna, Venus debiliated in 12th house. Period running Saturn/venus. Saturn in 11th house. I asked immediately whether he was having any health issue. He replied in the affirmative. Seeing the transits on 12th house (double transit), I told him it was quite possible he might be hospitalized and might have a surgery anytime in june and july. He became a little worried.

However, I added, keeping my belief in freewill, that he could consult some alternative therapies and cure himself. He did not say anything and kept quiet.

Today I got to know from him that his surgery has been scheduled. I asked him if tried other therapies and he said he did but did not have faith in them.

This left me again questioning myself- Is destiny really prediestined? What freewill we have?

[basab14]

Deeps,

A very interesting thread you have started. This debate about fate and free will has been going on since ages, and one would be surprised if it ends any time in the near future. I agree with you that we all the time feel that it's all in our hands: we eat when we like to, we watch television when we like to, we listen to music when we like to, and we visit lova even when we like to. So isn't it all in our hands? It seems so.

But then, as you have rightly pointed out, it's when we do astrology, that is when we start feeling that maybe it's not in our hands as we believe it is. Every time a prediction we make comes true, immediately the doubt about 'everything being free will' comes in our mind, and it is sensible, having that doubt, I feel.

About the little details of the chart that you have presented here, it definitely shows some health issues for the person as you have rightly pointed out to him. Major period of Saturn aspecting the lagna of health, and the 8th house of surgery, and sub-period of lagna lord, Venus, debiliated in the 12th house of hospitals, well, both shows health issues for the person and that resulting in hospitalization. Double transit on 12th house indicates that, too.

So we see in this case destiny proved itself to be predestined.

[chota bheem]

Deeps,

That is the best way you have choosen. Keep "questioning yourself" till you find out the answer. I am still questioning myelf, "pehley murgi aayi ya annda".

CB

[elipsis]

People are exercising their freewill all the time, they just don't know it. Your fate is really not controlled by planets nor anyone else, Shankaracharya tried to explain this to masses but to be honest this knowledge is beyond the grasp of ordinary people. Any sign of control is an illusion called Maya, whatever you experience doesn't really exist, every sequence of your life is just a state of mind at the end of the day. As long as you accept this illusion to be true - the laws of fate or astrology will apply to you otherwise it won't.

[deeps]

A very interesting thread you have started. This debate about fate and free will has been going on since ages, and one would be surprised if it ends any time in the near future. I agree with you that we all the time feel that it's all in our hands: we eat when we like to, we watch television when we like to, we listen to music when we like to, and we visit lova even when we like to. So isn't it all in our hands? It seems so.

Hi yellow,

It is really interesting that the debate has been going on since ages and looks like, this debate has still not reached final conclusion. Looks like we will have another debate here too. I am determined to arrive at the final answer, even if it takes many reincarnations.

[deeps]

About the little details of the chart that you have presented here, it definitely shows some health issues for the person as you have rightly pointed out to him. Major period of Saturn aspecting the lagna of health, and the 8th house of surgery, and sub-period of lagna lord, Venus, debiliated in the 12th house of hospitals, well, both shows health issues for the person and that resulting in hospitalization. Double transit on 12th house indicates that, too.

Coming to the chart, what concerns me is the mars transit to 12th house, which shows going under a doctor's knife. Doube transit is on 2nd house which is a maraka house. Mars is in own sign in 2nd house. I heard that mars is not maraka for Libra lagna, as per Bhavarth Ratnakar.

What is more Venus is in own sign in 8th house. But i am not aware if 8th house rules surgery. Surgery needs hospitalization, so surgery can also come under the gambit of 12th house.

The relief can be Guru's aspect on 12th and 2nd house and looks like the person can suffer some complications post surgery and due to Guru's positive aspect and venus shifting from 8th house on 31st July and Saturn moving to Lagna on 4th August, he will recover quickly from the first week of august.

What do you think so?

[deeps]

That is the best way you have choosen. Keep "questioning yourself" till you find out the answer. I am still questioning myelf, "pehley murgi aayi ya annda".

Hi bheem,

Yes, questioning is the first step to seek final answers. One should never stop questioning.

Anyway, what is your view on destiny and freewill?

[deeps]

People are exercising their freewill all the time, they just don't know it. Your fate is really not controlled by planets nor anyone else, Shankaracharya tried to explain this to masses but to be honest this knowledge is beyond the grasp of ordinary people. Any sign of control is an illusion called Maya, whatever you experience doesn't really exist, every sequence of your life is just a state of mind at the end of the day. As long as you accept this illusion to be true - the laws of fate or astrology will apply to you otherwise it won't.

Hi elipsis,

I have read many spiritual books but not on Shankaracharya. Almost all agree and always emphasis that we have the power to create anything we want or in simple terms, we can overcome any problems by exercising our freewill. But the same Saints have also and always indirectly talked about destiny. One Saint is Maharishsi. In fact, they have always said both the things and they always contradicted about fate and freewill.

You know destiny is a very sensitive issue. You said that our fate is really not controlled by planets. If that is so, then how come astrology has survived these thousands of years? I always feel that astrology has no faults. Real faults lies in lack of good knolwedge on astrology.

[basab14]

Elipsis,

Very wonderful post by you. I really enjoyed reading it. I know what you mean. I have read about it, too, in the books of Swami Vivekananda. He said the same thing, which you have mentioned. He said that once we realize that we are souls and not bodies, we immediately get out of the net of the law of karma. Cause and effect, action and reaction, are there in the world of maya, when we think ourselves as mere bodies, but when we realize that we are the all powerful soul, that all this that we see around us is maya, we go beyond cause and effect, and action and reaction. No planets can affect us then.

But Swami Vivekananda also talks about destiny being predestined. He says everything happens as per the will of God ('Whatever belongs to a man he will get. It was ready for him before he was born.' -- Swami Vivekananda), so sometimes I get confused about it as to what to believe. Like, suppose, the freedom of the soul, or moksha--is it us who will decide when we will get it? Doesn't every soul have to go through the process of evolution, to become pure and perfect, and once that, become free and not affected by the laws of nature anymore? If that is so, then one has to wait, for the process to finish. Till then, we are going to be under the influence of the planets, believing ourselves to be bodies and not souls and thinking of the world to be real and not maya.

Coming to Shankaracharya, he was a teacher of advaita philosophy, which Swami Vivekananda was a preacher of mainly, which is why their point of view is the same maybe. I have not read any of the teachings of the former person, but I have read about him.

[basab14]

Deeps,

I am impressed by your deep desire to get to the truth of the matter. I don't know if you will get the answer in this thread, or you will have to take many more births before you get it, but one thing I can tell you, the discussion that we all have here, will take all of us a few steps closer to the answer to the question that we are seeking. Looking forward to learning a lot through this thread. Thanks for starting this discussion.

Hi yellow,

It is really interesting that the debate has been going on since ages and looks like, this debate has still not reached final conclusion. Looks like we will have another debate here too. I am determined to arrive at the final answer, even if it takes many reincarnations.

[basab14]

Deeps,

Mars transit to 12th house from lagna is not a good transit and shows that hospitalization is for surgery, for the person as you have rightly pointed out. Double transit on the 2nd house is on a maraka house, definitely, which shows health issues, but then, also on the house of family as 2nd house also rules family. So it means the whole family will come together, if they are staying in separate places, as the person is going for surgery.

Yes, you are right, Mars is not a maraka for Libra lagna as per Bhavartha Ratnakar. What do you mean when you say Mars is in the 2nd house? Is it in the 2nd house in the birth chart, or is in the 2nd house from the Moon in transit now?

Venus, being lagna lord, in the 8th house of surgery, shows surgery. I had asked Vaughn Paul about this long back, and he had told me that 8th house rules surgery. He didn't mention 12th house for that, but your logic has strength.

Jupiter's aspect on the 12th house and its being in the 8th house will help the person have a speedy recovery. Venus transiting to 9th house in a month from now will also help in regard to that as you have rightly said.

Coming to the chart, what concerns me is the mars transit to 12th house, which shows going under a doctor's knife. Doube transit is on 2nd house which is a maraka house. Mars is in own sign in 2nd house. I heard that mars is not maraka for Libra lagna, as per Bhavarth Ratnakar.

What is more Venus is in own sign in 8th house. But i am not aware if 8th house rules surgery. Surgery needs hospitalization, so surgery can also come under the gambit of 12th house.

The relief can be Guru's aspect on 12th and 2nd house and looks like the person can suffer some complications post surgery and due to Guru's positive aspect and venus shifting from 8th house on 31st July and Saturn moving to Lagna on 4th August, he will recover quickly from the first week of august.

What do you think so?

[deeps]

for the person as you have rightly pointed out. Double transit on the 2nd house is on a maraka house, definitely, which shows health issues, but then, also on the house of family as, 2nd house also rules family. So it means the whole family will come together, if they are staying in separate places, as the person is going for surgery.

Exactly. This is what will happen. He told me everyone will be there on the date of his surgery. It will be quite like family gathering.

His mars in 2nd house the natal chart. Mars, in transit, is in 12th house.

Jupiter's aspect on the 12th house and its being in the 8th house, will help the person have a speedy recovery. Venus transiting to 9th house in a month from now will also help in regard to that as you have rightly said.

This is what I felt so and told him the same. Thnanks for sharing your views on this chart.

[deeps]

but one thing I can tell you, the discussion that we all have here, will take all of us a few steps closer to the answer to the question that we are seeking

I agree with you. We will reach, not the closure but the final conclusion. I will be discussing the charts of genuine people here on this thread.

[basab14]

Deeps,

It will be great if we can come to the final conclusion. It will be making history!

It will be really great if all the spiritual people on this forum shares their thoughts here as the more the discussion we have here, the more we can understand deeply this concept of "destiny and free will", and the more it will be easy for us to come to a conclusion as to what rules: destiny or free will?

This is the question of not just this century, but has been the question of every century in the past and is going to be the question of every century in the future, unless we make a breakthrough here, in this thread, finding the answer to one of the biggest questions that has been looming over the head of each and every person, who has taken birth in this world.

Yes, it will be wonderful if you share your experience in astrology, about the predictions you have made seeing birth charts, and how correct they have been, or how incorrect they have been. It will help us get some good clue as to whether destiny is predestined, or free will has a part too in our lives and small clues like this will help us solve the biggest puzzle of life whether we have free will, or everything is predestined.

[deeps]

haha. History??..History has already been created but I doubt if history can re-created again

Anyway, do share your views with some of your examples to prove why you have this unshakable belief that destiny is predestined?

[basab14]

Deeps,

There is a saying: "History repeats itself", so if history has been created once, it will be created an infinite more times!

I will surely give some examples on how I started believing that "destiny is predestined" in my future posts here.

[jegdis5]

Deeps,

See below if it answers your query...This is from Vaughn Paul lessons ..

The Three Levels of Karmic Magnitude

In addition to the four kinds of karma, there are three levels of magnitude to any given karma. Karma can be fixed/strong or non-fixed/weak, or a combination of the two. If the karma is strong then the predetermined event will almost certainly happen. If the karma is weak then it may be relatively easy to avert it. The three levels of magnitude are:

1. Fixed karma (Dridha) – This is karma that cannot be changed by any effort on our part. Only the grace of God can alter fixed karma (Dridha).
2. Mixed karma (Dridha/Adridha) – This is karma that can be changed but only with substantial effort.
3. Non-Fixed karma (Adridha) – This is karma that can be easily changed with some effort.

See this link below , when i was very much in to learning astro i came across it and even ought lessons from Vaughn Paul..See i your satisfied??

My simple contribution...

http://www.astrologyforthesoul.com/vedi ... rinter.htm

[Saindhavi]

Well, for a large part of my life, till I spent most of my Rahu Mahadasha, I was not interested in astrology, didn't know about it and didn't care about it. I was also almost non-religious. I firmly believed that we all can chart our own destiny, without any external help.

In Rahu-Sun I went through the worst phase of Rahu Mahadasha and my entire world turned upside down. I was in a very bad state for more than a year. I lost all that I had.

this was the time I began to seek astrologers, get my chart read and also learn astrology on my own. this was the kind of state in which one looks for some supernatural support. Because things happened suddenly with me, quite unexpectedly, completely contrary to natural logic.

I no longer felt I could steer my life on my own and hence, began to go into astrology.

As I learnt to read my chart better - and also other people's chart - gradually I understood the pattern chalked out in my and other people's charts.

I could explain the life's happenings - especially the sudden and unexplained ones - with the help of astrology.

However, I must acknowledge that my interest in astrology grew only because I faced severe problems. If ever I begin to live a comfortable, non-problematic life, I can't promise that I will stick to astrology then, because my natural tendency is to believe in free will. (Perhaps this will surprise people here, but this is true.)

However, so far I feel astrology gives an anchor to those who are suffering, who can't explain the events of their lives with rational logic. I am particularly prone to sudden, unexpected, illogical adversities in life, which I can explain only through astrology.

Whether astrological predictions can be modified by planning, actions, remedies and mental control and how much they can be modified have been issues for debate for ages and perhaps will always remain so.

I am still experimenting by finding more and more combinations of remedies and seeing if and how much they help in changing the course of destiny.

So far I have seen that one gets a correct reading and correct remedies only when it's time for the person to experience improvements in life. When the time is not ripe, the person doesn't get remedies, is not able to practise them, or faces obstacles while practising them.

People who practise remedies can come back and report whether remedies are helping them. Then we’ll know whether and how much the reading of the chart can be influenced by remedies.

Those who don't believe in religiosity and astrology are perhaps destined to live that way.

On the other hand, if one has a strong mind - which means a mind that doesn't get affected by adversity, doesn't feel emotions, doesn't feel any sense of loss - then perhaps one will not need astrology.

But such people are very few in the world and perhaps they are not human.

[basab14]

Saindhavi ji,

Thank you for the amazingly brilliant post. I agree with every word of yours, and I salute your honesty.

[basab14]

Jedgis,

Thank you for posting the link of Vaughn Paul's previous site.

Deeps,

I remember reading the article there and getting very much impressed by it, but then, I didn't want to get my mind into astrology as I thought it to be very complicated, even though I knew the basics of astrology even then, as I have grown up hearing about planets and astrology, my father knowing it to some extent.

But the amazing thing is when the sub-period of Jupiter started, I one day thought of finding the site of the American person (I didn't remember his name), who had written such an impressive article on astrology, and in a few seconds I found him on the net. His site was not the old one then. It was the one we have now. I was so impressed by it, and by the articles there, that the first 10 days I spent, 10 hours each day, reading the articles only. I would in my dream see birth charts and planets all the time at that time, so much my mind was filled by astrology those days. That was when I started learning astrology, and the whole Jupiter period I did astrology, though my interest in it started waning in the later part of Jupiter period.

When my Saturn sub-period started, I took interest in spirituality, and now I read spiritual books mostly when I have never found interest in spirituality earlier. Today when I see people around me, who are disinterested in spirituality, I find myself in them as I was like them one day, having no interest at all in it. I had not suffered enough then, to take interest in spirituality. Just before my Saturn sub-period started, I went through a terrible one month phase in my life, which made me bow in front of God finally.

Anupamji, a senior member here, and a very fine astrologer, had told me here on this very forum that I would take interest in spirituality one day, and I had told him, the sun can rise from the west, but I won't get into spirituality. I think if we check my posts from my earlier id (sorry guys, don't ask what my original id is if you don't know about it), we can find that line of mine. But anyway, what I am trying to say is that, one never knows what's there in his future--things can turn around in a moment, and you can be what you never wanted to be, or what you laughed about one day.

I have noticed that a change in sub-periods in my life brings changes in my life itself--maybe small changes, but changes all right. So I can say this confidently that planets have their effect on a person's life definitely.

Coming to efforts, I don't believe they have any effect, but even then, one should put efforts for one's satisfaction. I really find it amazing when people ask others to take efforts. I feel their success makes them blind to the reality of the world around them--their success makes them feel that everyone can attain success. If that was so, if efforts were directly proportional to success, then there would not be a single person who would fail in life.

I have talked to women, who have crossed their mid-thirties and are unmarried. I have asked them, didn't they try for marriage, and they have said, they tried, and tried, and tried, and still they remain unmarried. What should we tell these women: you haven't put much effort, put more effort now? Can we be so unkind to them to tell them something like that?

Check the readings sections of the forum: when I go there I feel, I hear a cry of misery from each and every post there. The people who have asked their query there, has one of them bowed to the planets before trying their level best? Wouldn't it be a sin to tell them that it's their free will, which is all powerful?

Go to a mother, who has delivered a defective child and tell her, she has free will! Go to a child, who has lost her parents and tell her, she has free will! Go to a husband, who has lost his wife and tell him, he has free will! Go to a woman, who has been raped and tell her, she has free will! It is destiny! they will shout back at you. Go to people, who have faced pain in life, failures in life and ask them, whether they believe in free will or not. They will tell you free will is an illusion. There is destiny--only destiny!

Now, who has free will? The person, who has the midas touch: whatever he touches turns to gold: whatever he tries, he finds success in that. That person will never believe in destiny, but in free will because destiny has not shown that person what its power is, that when it takes control, free will just bow down and lick the dust under its feet!

[Saindhavi]

Yellow,

Thanks for your appreciation!

I can understand how Saturn has brought you to spirituality.

Let's hope we all will come out of our troubles in near future.

[basab14]

Saindhavi ji,

You are welcome. I felt so happy reading your post. It made so much sense, and it was honest to the core. Really appreciate it

About Saturn, it's my 5th lord, so maybe that's the reason I got into spirituality in its period. It was destined, I believe. I believe if my life picks up, I will lose interest in it, but what I have learned from it, I don't think I will ever forget. I know that. I have shed tears (I don't feel ashamed of it!) thinking of the great God and of the saints, in my times of misery, and they have comforted me when no one could. I will be ungrateful to them if I don't remember them in my good times, if it ever comes. If I ever make any success in life, I will always say it was destined, it was the blessings of God, and not my own efforts, even if I put my best efforts. That is being humble, that is being grateful to the almighty.

Yes, I really hope that with time everyone's problem will get solved. I have a lot of faith in God, and I believe those who have faced difficulties in life will get good times, too. God can't be so harsh to anyone, I feel.

[basab14]

Saindhavi ji,

One point I would like to ask you: you have mentioned that your Sun sub-period was very difficult in the Rahu major period. Sun sub-period comes very late in the Rahu major period, so do you think it was the Sun sub-period, which was the reason for the problems and not the Rahu major period, as if it was Rahu, it would have been bad from the very beginning itself. Now, can a sub-period be so powerful that it can override the effect of the major period?

[deeps]

Hi Yellow,

As usual, another brilliant post from you. Loved reading it! You simplified everything about destiny and freewill with logical real life examples including your own.

I have seen 3 cases. All three of them highly qualified from IITs and one from good MBA institute and all earning very handsom salaries. They have everything i.e. respect, house, car and servants. Yet, their parents have become tired of finding a good spouse. Their efforts, for years, did not yield any single result. I am still shocked and bow down before the greatness of planets. I even failed in predicting their marriages but other predictions about job change have come true.

One case-

Meen Lagna.

Saturn and MOON in 7th house.

Jupiter and Mars in 8th house.

Sun and Mercury in 6th house.

Venus in 5th house.

Ketu in 10th house.

Current running period- Rahu/venus.

He is earning very handsome and even got raise few days back. He had a breaks in job though last year. Got the job this jan'12 (my prediction came true). His father has been with me always for the past 3 years. Despite having very handsome and attractive body figure, his father failed to get any reliable match.

what's your take? Will Lord Saturn will finally grant his parent's only wish?

[basab14]

Deeps,

Thank you so much for appreciating my post. It's such kind words that gives me the inspiration to write more, and more.

I can understand what you are saying about them not getting married. I know of quite a few people, who have faced the same problem, but ask them to not lose hope because destiny defies logic. Let me tell you why I say this. Just a couple of days back destiny proved once more to me why it defies logic, a lot of times.

When a person crosses mid-thirties, we give up hope on the person getting married, but what will you say when you hear of a person who is 50 years old get married? Yes, you heard me right. A person 50 years old, got married recently, and my father attended that wedding. He said the girl is around 40 years old.

A couple of my relatives got married around 40 years age--both male though. I remember hearing about a 40 year old lady getting married.

Coming to career, I know of someone, who started his career at the age of 40, and that too a brilliant career. He worked in American Embassy, and it was a very dignified job, which gave him very high contacts.

Coming to the chart of the person you shared, well, he is not running a good period even now, though I will say that Rahu-Venus can give him marriage as both signifies marriage. Saturn in the 7th house now, and Jupiter aspecting the 7th house, too. The effect of the double transit stays for some time so even if Saturn moves, the marriage can happen some time after that.