Welcome sudarshang.
In that case, more worship and less blogging will not be helpful?!
Sriman Narayana is the Supreme Brahman, the God of all Gods!
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Narayan Ji,
It becomes a diciple's duty to follow the guideline of his Guru. Thats the best way to pay gratitude to one's guru. This is the best guru dakshina.
No one is forcing here, sudarshang ji is presenting his views. yes, this presentation is in a strong way but i dont think he is forcing anyone. Everyone is free to choose his/her path.
My understanding is, if anything which induces fear in you, is a trap. You can leave it but dont critcise it. The same thing sometimes doesnt induce any fear in others.
Believe in everything but follow your path.
Moreover, this is a thread started with the name of Sriman Narayana. definitelly something good will come out of it.
Love
Talib
It becomes a diciple's duty to follow the guideline of his Guru. Thats the best way to pay gratitude to one's guru. This is the best guru dakshina.
No one is forcing here, sudarshang ji is presenting his views. yes, this presentation is in a strong way but i dont think he is forcing anyone. Everyone is free to choose his/her path.
My understanding is, if anything which induces fear in you, is a trap. You can leave it but dont critcise it. The same thing sometimes doesnt induce any fear in others.
Believe in everything but follow your path.
Moreover, this is a thread started with the name of Sriman Narayana. definitelly something good will come out of it.
Love
Talib
Dance of the Divine is "Thoughtless"
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krishnagopal1968
- Frequent Contributor
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 11 Jan 2010
Dear Narayan ji,
OK, his statements provokes reactions but he is not responsible for it. Many statements of masters or scriptures do that.
You know, Quran says only Allah and no other god. Even it is said that Mohammed himself threw/kicked out idols. Jesus said i am the only begotten son of God".
Buddha heavily criticised vedas, Adisankara criticised buddha, Prabhupada criticised Krishnamurthy,........
Why is this?
My view is there are different personality types and some entirely opposite natures in this world. Masters know this and they also know that to reach a summit one cannot climb on all paths. Then he can never reach, half way here, half way there, So to encourage a disciple they say, this alone is true, this alone is true...
And please don't think that jnana path is final! Meera has not followed jnana, Kabir has not followed,Nanak has not followed .....
As i understand, only at the peak all paths merge.
Better not to react. Till realisation, all statements including mine are half truths only.
OK, his statements provokes reactions but he is not responsible for it. Many statements of masters or scriptures do that.
You know, Quran says only Allah and no other god. Even it is said that Mohammed himself threw/kicked out idols. Jesus said i am the only begotten son of God".
Buddha heavily criticised vedas, Adisankara criticised buddha, Prabhupada criticised Krishnamurthy,........
Why is this?
My view is there are different personality types and some entirely opposite natures in this world. Masters know this and they also know that to reach a summit one cannot climb on all paths. Then he can never reach, half way here, half way there, So to encourage a disciple they say, this alone is true, this alone is true...
And please don't think that jnana path is final! Meera has not followed jnana, Kabir has not followed,Nanak has not followed .....
As i understand, only at the peak all paths merge.
Better not to react. Till realisation, all statements including mine are half truths only.
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Sudarshang
Talib_ji, Thanks for jumping in to clarify my position. What I write is my Karma. I am not provoking anyone to react. If you react, that is your karma. I have already stated earlier in my post the reason for the misinterpretation is rajo and tamo gunas. Any practice in any tradition must therefore start with cultivating more sattva guna. Please do not expect "realization" to happen without cultivating sattva guna...because, realization means realization of the truth, and it is sattva guna that drives yatavastita gyana (knowledge of truth). Here are some practical aspects to cultivating sattva guna -
1. Start with food habits: Stop consumption of packaged foods, onions, garlic, baingan, cabbage, cauliflower. Whenever and whereever available, try to consume at least one leaf of tulasi a day. Always eat fresh food that is is cooked less than 2 hours before consumption. Do not eat food unless you offer it to Sriman Narayana first! (if you follow other deities like ambaal etc. by all means you may offer the food to them, but please do not offer to Shiva - firstly He will not accept, and shastras prevent you from partaking shivan kovil prasad. The reason is that he visits shmashana bhoomi every night).
2. Eating is nothing but performance of a Yagna. Therefore it is a ritual. There is a fire in the stomach that is called Jaataraagni. throwing food into the food pipe is the same as performing an yagna in which you throw food items into homa kundam. As per vedic sampradaya, please perform "parishesanam" while you sit down for eating. Always eat anything only after taking bath, because the shastras say, "snaathvaa bhunjheeta". Eating before taking bath is papa-karma. Also, Krishna clearly states in BG that consumption of food not offered to him is papa-karma! (BG 3-13, Bhunjate te tvagham papa Ye pachantyaatma kaaraNat)
Please do not merely eat for maintenance of body - do it as a religious ritual first! Therefore it follows that you should try to stop eating at restaurants because they do not offer the food to God there!
3 clothing - at least while at home, try wearing only white clothes,
4. please wear as per your sampradaya whatever mark on your forehead - for however long possible during the entire day.
Start with these, those who are interested in "realization", I will add more when I remember...
KG1968-ji, You said, "In that case, more worship and less blogging will not be helpful?!" - sir, writing itself is a form of worship only - it is called Bhaagavada Kaingaryam or Likhita Kaingaryam becuase I am sharing whatever little I know in the name of Supreme Brahman Sriman Narayana! Perhaps it is His will that even in the face of criticism and jibe, I should continue sharing what I know with others - this is also a form of "prashad" - dont we share whatever prasad we get from temple, same way sir, the Supreme Lord offered me the prasad of knowledge and I am sharing it with everyone. Thanks for reading - btw, reading is also a form of worship.
1. Start with food habits: Stop consumption of packaged foods, onions, garlic, baingan, cabbage, cauliflower. Whenever and whereever available, try to consume at least one leaf of tulasi a day. Always eat fresh food that is is cooked less than 2 hours before consumption. Do not eat food unless you offer it to Sriman Narayana first! (if you follow other deities like ambaal etc. by all means you may offer the food to them, but please do not offer to Shiva - firstly He will not accept, and shastras prevent you from partaking shivan kovil prasad. The reason is that he visits shmashana bhoomi every night).
2. Eating is nothing but performance of a Yagna. Therefore it is a ritual. There is a fire in the stomach that is called Jaataraagni. throwing food into the food pipe is the same as performing an yagna in which you throw food items into homa kundam. As per vedic sampradaya, please perform "parishesanam" while you sit down for eating. Always eat anything only after taking bath, because the shastras say, "snaathvaa bhunjheeta". Eating before taking bath is papa-karma. Also, Krishna clearly states in BG that consumption of food not offered to him is papa-karma! (BG 3-13, Bhunjate te tvagham papa Ye pachantyaatma kaaraNat)
Please do not merely eat for maintenance of body - do it as a religious ritual first! Therefore it follows that you should try to stop eating at restaurants because they do not offer the food to God there!
3 clothing - at least while at home, try wearing only white clothes,
4. please wear as per your sampradaya whatever mark on your forehead - for however long possible during the entire day.
Start with these, those who are interested in "realization", I will add more when I remember...
KG1968-ji, You said, "In that case, more worship and less blogging will not be helpful?!" - sir, writing itself is a form of worship only - it is called Bhaagavada Kaingaryam or Likhita Kaingaryam becuase I am sharing whatever little I know in the name of Supreme Brahman Sriman Narayana! Perhaps it is His will that even in the face of criticism and jibe, I should continue sharing what I know with others - this is also a form of "prashad" - dont we share whatever prasad we get from temple, same way sir, the Supreme Lord offered me the prasad of knowledge and I am sharing it with everyone. Thanks for reading - btw, reading is also a form of worship.
Last edited by Sudarshang on 18 Feb 2012, edited 1 time in total.
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Sudarshang
Narayan-ji
This is for you specially. In the previous post I suggested something about not offering the food to Shiva. If I have committed a papa-karma by making that statement, let that papa-karma affect me. I know my Lord Sriman Narayana will protect me because ultimately He is the one that can grant Moksha. if you react to my statement, by stating that they are all equal, that itself is a papa-karma as per Nambaaduvan Charitram in Varaha Purnam. Therefore think again before you react! Again, I am stating this in your interest for your welfare!
This is for you specially. In the previous post I suggested something about not offering the food to Shiva. If I have committed a papa-karma by making that statement, let that papa-karma affect me. I know my Lord Sriman Narayana will protect me because ultimately He is the one that can grant Moksha. if you react to my statement, by stating that they are all equal, that itself is a papa-karma as per Nambaaduvan Charitram in Varaha Purnam. Therefore think again before you react! Again, I am stating this in your interest for your welfare!
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milredr
Dear Sudarshang,
I have been reading all that you have been writing. Your beliefs more or less reflect the same beliefs as that of my religion. I was born a christian. I have no knowledge of vedas or Sriman Naryana. We believe there is only one God and we will go to heaven only if you follow HIS path. The rest are called pagans. I ask the same questions to the priests as well - except us baptised christians do u think everybody goes to hell? You see we also dont believe in rebirth. What you have written to Naryan and what i have been told again and again sound familiar and it is fear based. If you dont follow the lord you will go to hell, if you dont believe that Sriram Narayana is the supreme, you will attract bad Karmas. Is the Lord to be feared ?
I also want to ask you the same question - Except those who follow Sriman Narayana everybody else will not reach Moksha? Lets take Mother Theresa for example. Do u think Sriman Narayana will not give her Moksha ? I dont have the knowledge that you have. My questions are also very basic. But can I request you to answer these basic questions of mine if possible.
Regards
I have been reading all that you have been writing. Your beliefs more or less reflect the same beliefs as that of my religion. I was born a christian. I have no knowledge of vedas or Sriman Naryana. We believe there is only one God and we will go to heaven only if you follow HIS path. The rest are called pagans. I ask the same questions to the priests as well - except us baptised christians do u think everybody goes to hell? You see we also dont believe in rebirth. What you have written to Naryan and what i have been told again and again sound familiar and it is fear based. If you dont follow the lord you will go to hell, if you dont believe that Sriram Narayana is the supreme, you will attract bad Karmas. Is the Lord to be feared ?
I also want to ask you the same question - Except those who follow Sriman Narayana everybody else will not reach Moksha? Lets take Mother Theresa for example. Do u think Sriman Narayana will not give her Moksha ? I dont have the knowledge that you have. My questions are also very basic. But can I request you to answer these basic questions of mine if possible.
Regards
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Sudarshang
Dear Mildred,
I have read a bit of the bible esp. some versions available in the US and understand some of the basic tenets of the religion. Besides the commonality that you see, our beliefs also come close on the Holy Trinity - You call them the Holy Ghost, Holy Son and Holy Father - We call it - no, not Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva - but, Chit, Achit, Eeshwara. With a slight variation though they would be similar - the Holy Ghost is the Chit...but how Christians define the soul is a lot different from how Hindus define the Atma. For example, the Atma is Gyana and Ananda swaroopan - i.e has knowledge and happiness for its composition. The Brahmam or Sriman Narayana is the Holy Father. Instead of calling the Christ who took birth as the Son of God, the Hindus call all Jeevatmas as the sons/daughters of Holy Father. We are all His Children no matter you are born a Christian, Moslem, Hindu, Jew - whoever, even if you are born in another world that has life, we are all Sriman Narayana's children.
That being the presmise, you are talking about going to Heaven only if you follow HIS path. We are talking about a level above the Heaven called Sri Vaikuntha. What can be equated to Christian Heaven is the Hindu Swarga Loka that which you go to to expend your good karma. Every person goes to hell and to heaven in Hinduism - the time spent in each hell or heaven depends on how much karma is exhausted in each world. That said, all these worlds, including the swarga and hells are all commonly called "samsara". As long as the Jeevatma is in Samsara, it has to experience alternating sukh (happiness) and dukh (unhappiness) and go on exhausting its sanchita karma that is time-less, and therefore practically inexhaustible by the Jeevatma by its own effort!. Karma is the basis for Moksha! The first step to Moksha is exhausting the Karma.
"Niyatam Kuru Karmatvam" (BG 3-8) says Krishna. "Do that which you have been assigned" - that is Karma Yoga. Firstly, eveyone needs the knowledge of what has been assigned. Indirectly, it also means, do not do what has not been assigned or what has been forbidden! Therefore everyone needs the knowledge of what one is NOT supposed to do as well! As I have said earlier in one of the posts, the Vedas and shastras are common to human kind. They are not the property of Hindus alone. They do not discriminate except in the segregation of duties. Karma is that segregation of duties according to one's varna and ashrama. Shastras have 3 different kinds of statements - Vidhi, Artham, and Mantram. Vidhi tells what one should do. Artham celebrates what happens when one does what has been told. Mantram tells how the vidhi should be performed. For example: Vidhi says Jyotishtomena Swaga Kamo Yajeta - the one desirous of going to heaven should perform Jyotishtoma yagna. Artham will celebrate what heaven is like - and sometimes goes overboard in its exaggeration - for example it would say you would go the heaven where "animals walk upside down". Those are celebratory words not to be taken as is. Mantram tells you how to perform Jyotishtoma yagnam.
I have read a bit of the bible esp. some versions available in the US and understand some of the basic tenets of the religion. Besides the commonality that you see, our beliefs also come close on the Holy Trinity - You call them the Holy Ghost, Holy Son and Holy Father - We call it - no, not Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva - but, Chit, Achit, Eeshwara. With a slight variation though they would be similar - the Holy Ghost is the Chit...but how Christians define the soul is a lot different from how Hindus define the Atma. For example, the Atma is Gyana and Ananda swaroopan - i.e has knowledge and happiness for its composition. The Brahmam or Sriman Narayana is the Holy Father. Instead of calling the Christ who took birth as the Son of God, the Hindus call all Jeevatmas as the sons/daughters of Holy Father. We are all His Children no matter you are born a Christian, Moslem, Hindu, Jew - whoever, even if you are born in another world that has life, we are all Sriman Narayana's children.
That being the presmise, you are talking about going to Heaven only if you follow HIS path. We are talking about a level above the Heaven called Sri Vaikuntha. What can be equated to Christian Heaven is the Hindu Swarga Loka that which you go to to expend your good karma. Every person goes to hell and to heaven in Hinduism - the time spent in each hell or heaven depends on how much karma is exhausted in each world. That said, all these worlds, including the swarga and hells are all commonly called "samsara". As long as the Jeevatma is in Samsara, it has to experience alternating sukh (happiness) and dukh (unhappiness) and go on exhausting its sanchita karma that is time-less, and therefore practically inexhaustible by the Jeevatma by its own effort!. Karma is the basis for Moksha! The first step to Moksha is exhausting the Karma.
"Niyatam Kuru Karmatvam" (BG 3-8) says Krishna. "Do that which you have been assigned" - that is Karma Yoga. Firstly, eveyone needs the knowledge of what has been assigned. Indirectly, it also means, do not do what has not been assigned or what has been forbidden! Therefore everyone needs the knowledge of what one is NOT supposed to do as well! As I have said earlier in one of the posts, the Vedas and shastras are common to human kind. They are not the property of Hindus alone. They do not discriminate except in the segregation of duties. Karma is that segregation of duties according to one's varna and ashrama. Shastras have 3 different kinds of statements - Vidhi, Artham, and Mantram. Vidhi tells what one should do. Artham celebrates what happens when one does what has been told. Mantram tells how the vidhi should be performed. For example: Vidhi says Jyotishtomena Swaga Kamo Yajeta - the one desirous of going to heaven should perform Jyotishtoma yagna. Artham will celebrate what heaven is like - and sometimes goes overboard in its exaggeration - for example it would say you would go the heaven where "animals walk upside down". Those are celebratory words not to be taken as is. Mantram tells you how to perform Jyotishtoma yagnam.
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Sudarshang
May be I am digressing too much from the topic - but the idea is - one should do what one has been assigned according to the varna-ashrama-dharma. However, the world, including devout Hindus do not have much knowledge anymore of what they are. Most of them is lost or not in practice anymore thanks to the modification of Indian education system by Macaulay in the 1800s which unfortunately Indians follow todate.
Therefore only a very few people take the effort to trying to explore what is this that has been assigned.
The other side of the coin is a bit scary. and this is confirmed by Krishna in BG (3rd chapter as well) - what happens if we do not do what has been assigned (because many Hindus even are not aware of what the assignment is)? Krishna uses words like "samsaareshu naraadhamaan" and "aasureem su yonishu" - meaning I keep pushing them back into samsara and make them take "asura" like birth. Now, Asura like rbirth is not the end of the world - we have had cases like Prahlad, and Vibheeshana that were born in Asura janma but corrected themselves and eventually attained moksha.
It is important to know that Samsara means worlds that respond to the Laws of Nature (Prakriti). This includes Heaven (Swarga) the world that is ruled by Indra and where the beautiful damsels - Rambha, Urvashi, Menaka etc live. Moksha means reaching Sri Vaikuntha - which is a world beyond the control of Nature. Our senses respond to the Laws of Nature and therefore we are incapable of perceiving or even understanding/imagining a world that is beyond the laws of nature. Moksha is the "greatest achievement" a Jeevatma can aspire for. It is ruled by Sriman Narayana. If you aspire for Moksha there is no other way but to please Him.
However, the contrary that you are talking about is incorrect. There is no fear factor. He is everybody''s Holy Father. The dad is waiting for the son to come and acknowledge that He is the dad. If you dont' acknowledge you continue living in Samsara playing the game of treasure hunt until you find the treasure. Samsara is not completely dukha - it is alternating sukha and dukha. Whereas Moksha is eternal sukha. Our dad is great, He is rich, He owns the world. But he says you get a piece of that inheritence only if you accept Him as dad! If not, nothing wrong - he is not going to penalize you - you are simply going to live your own life - in Samsara that is.
You asked for the example of Mother Teresa. She has done a lot of Good Karma. To go to Moksha, good karma is an equal obstacle as bad karma! to go to Moksha your baggage must be zero - no good karma and no bad karma. You only asked about Mother Teresa. Let me earn a few more enemies on this forum for saying this, and perhaps people will brand me Mad or Fanatic (that I have already been branded once)!@ I would put a BIG question mark on whether the following attained moksha .... Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, Ramana, Aurobindo, Osho, Adi Shankara and his followers, Shankaracharyas of the Adi Shankara lineage, including Kanchi Periyavaa, ...I will stop here ... Sorry, I forgot to add, perhaps even Vasishta and Vishvaamitra are still in the queue ....
Therefore only a very few people take the effort to trying to explore what is this that has been assigned.
The other side of the coin is a bit scary. and this is confirmed by Krishna in BG (3rd chapter as well) - what happens if we do not do what has been assigned (because many Hindus even are not aware of what the assignment is)? Krishna uses words like "samsaareshu naraadhamaan" and "aasureem su yonishu" - meaning I keep pushing them back into samsara and make them take "asura" like birth. Now, Asura like rbirth is not the end of the world - we have had cases like Prahlad, and Vibheeshana that were born in Asura janma but corrected themselves and eventually attained moksha.
It is important to know that Samsara means worlds that respond to the Laws of Nature (Prakriti). This includes Heaven (Swarga) the world that is ruled by Indra and where the beautiful damsels - Rambha, Urvashi, Menaka etc live. Moksha means reaching Sri Vaikuntha - which is a world beyond the control of Nature. Our senses respond to the Laws of Nature and therefore we are incapable of perceiving or even understanding/imagining a world that is beyond the laws of nature. Moksha is the "greatest achievement" a Jeevatma can aspire for. It is ruled by Sriman Narayana. If you aspire for Moksha there is no other way but to please Him.
However, the contrary that you are talking about is incorrect. There is no fear factor. He is everybody''s Holy Father. The dad is waiting for the son to come and acknowledge that He is the dad. If you dont' acknowledge you continue living in Samsara playing the game of treasure hunt until you find the treasure. Samsara is not completely dukha - it is alternating sukha and dukha. Whereas Moksha is eternal sukha. Our dad is great, He is rich, He owns the world. But he says you get a piece of that inheritence only if you accept Him as dad! If not, nothing wrong - he is not going to penalize you - you are simply going to live your own life - in Samsara that is.
You asked for the example of Mother Teresa. She has done a lot of Good Karma. To go to Moksha, good karma is an equal obstacle as bad karma! to go to Moksha your baggage must be zero - no good karma and no bad karma. You only asked about Mother Teresa. Let me earn a few more enemies on this forum for saying this, and perhaps people will brand me Mad or Fanatic (that I have already been branded once)!@ I would put a BIG question mark on whether the following attained moksha .... Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, Ramana, Aurobindo, Osho, Adi Shankara and his followers, Shankaracharyas of the Adi Shankara lineage, including Kanchi Periyavaa, ...I will stop here ... Sorry, I forgot to add, perhaps even Vasishta and Vishvaamitra are still in the queue ....
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astrohajare
- Contributor
- Posts: 110
- Joined: 29 Dec 2011
This is from Ramcharitmanas lanka Kand:
"Having installed an emblem of Lord Shiva and worshipped It with due solemnity,
He said .No one else is so dear to Me as Shiva. An enemy of Shiva although he calls
himself a devotee of Mine, cannot attain to Me even in a dream. He who is opposed to
Sankar and yet aspires for devotion to Me is doomed to perdition, stupid and dull-witted."
"Having installed an emblem of Lord Shiva and worshipped It with due solemnity,
He said .No one else is so dear to Me as Shiva. An enemy of Shiva although he calls
himself a devotee of Mine, cannot attain to Me even in a dream. He who is opposed to
Sankar and yet aspires for devotion to Me is doomed to perdition, stupid and dull-witted."
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milredr
Hi Sudarshang,
Thank you. I had a few more doubts. Have sent you a PM. Pl do let me know.
Thanks
Thank you. I had a few more doubts. Have sent you a PM. Pl do let me know.
Thanks
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astrohajare
- Contributor
- Posts: 110
- Joined: 29 Dec 2011
This is from Ramcharitmanas Uttar Kand about Kalyug:
"They who are of maleficent conduct are held in great esteem and they alone are worthy of honour. Even so they alone who are babblers in thought, word and deed are orators in the Kali age"
"The disciple and the preceptor severally resemble a deaf man and a blind man : the one
would not listen, while the other cannot see."
"They who are of maleficent conduct are held in great esteem and they alone are worthy of honour. Even so they alone who are babblers in thought, word and deed are orators in the Kali age"
"The disciple and the preceptor severally resemble a deaf man and a blind man : the one
would not listen, while the other cannot see."
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krishnagopal1968
- Frequent Contributor
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 11 Jan 2010
Dear Sudarshang,
Why should we bother about whether Ramakrishna, Vivekananda…….. Kanchi seer have realized or only half baked?! Let us concern about our own realization first.
Now instead of comparing other systems, other sages or not so realized sages, please share us some stories, anecdotes of Srimad Bhagavatham and other Vaishnava scriptures.
There are many instances about how a disciple came to a master, interactions between them, and his obstacles to realization.
Or about Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s life, Ramanuja and other vaishanava saint’s life instances, Will that not be more benefiting?
Why should we bother about whether Ramakrishna, Vivekananda…….. Kanchi seer have realized or only half baked?! Let us concern about our own realization first.
Now instead of comparing other systems, other sages or not so realized sages, please share us some stories, anecdotes of Srimad Bhagavatham and other Vaishnava scriptures.
There are many instances about how a disciple came to a master, interactions between them, and his obstacles to realization.
Or about Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s life, Ramanuja and other vaishanava saint’s life instances, Will that not be more benefiting?
Dear Sudarshang:
All your ideologies will go under a sea-vast change once you have experience. From that point onwards, you will even see Vedas right from the point and what does it actually mean? That is why the NEED FOR EXPERIENCE is HIGHLY AND HIGHLY RECOMMENDED which of course is God's own Kingdom and only his role works.
Regards
Narayanan
All your ideologies will go under a sea-vast change once you have experience. From that point onwards, you will even see Vedas right from the point and what does it actually mean? That is why the NEED FOR EXPERIENCE is HIGHLY AND HIGHLY RECOMMENDED which of course is God's own Kingdom and only his role works.
Regards
Narayanan
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Sudarshang
Mildredmilredr wrote:Hi Sudarshang,
Thank you. I had a few more doubts. Have sent you a PM. Pl do let me know.
Thanks
your question is an important one...if you dont mind, could I answer it in the open forum?
Thanks
Sudarshan
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Sudarshang
KG1968krishnagopal1968 wrote:Dear Sudarshang,
Why should we bother about whether Ramakrishna, Vivekananda…….. Kanchi seer have realized or only half baked?! Let us concern about our own realization first.
Now instead of comparing other systems, other sages or not so realized sages, please share us some stories, anecdotes of Srimad Bhagavatham and other Vaishnava scriptures.
There are many instances about how a disciple came to a master, interactions between them, and his obstacles to realization.
Or about Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s life, Ramanuja and other vaishanava saint’s life instances, Will that not be more benefiting?
Point well noted, I will post more from the lifes of the people you have suggested and storie/anectodes from Srimad Bhagavatamand other Vaishnava Scriptures. The reason I brought up what I did was primarily because several people have quoted them and when Mildred enquired about Mother Teresa- another well revered figure in the "Hindu" society, I thought of posting about them as well .... The reason is primarily to state that I do not accept their writings as "pramana" to establish the title of the thread.
Sudarshan
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Sudarshang
Narayanan - No "bodily" experience is POSSIBLE as long as this sharira is bound by laws of prakriti (Nature) - unless, HE decides to give you the "divyam dadaamite chakshu:" (BG 11th Chapter). Even that happens only when He, Sriman Narayana is pleased, not otherwise!Narayan wrote:Dear Sudarshang:
All your ideologies will go under a sea-vast change once you have experience. From that point onwards, you will even see Vedas right from the point and what does it actually mean? That is why the NEED FOR EXPERIENCE is HIGHLY AND HIGHLY RECOMMENDED which of course is God's own Kingdom and only his role works.
Regards
Narayanan
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Sudarshang
Aj sir, now you are promoting enemity! Did I promote enemity between Gods in my post anywhere? Did I tell you become enemy of shiva? if so, please point out where!astrohajare wrote:This is from Ramcharitmanas lanka Kand:
"Having installed an emblem of Lord Shiva and worshipped It with due solemnity,
He said .No one else is so dear to Me as Shiva. An enemy of Shiva although he calls
himself a devotee of Mine, cannot attain to Me even in a dream. He who is opposed to
Sankar and yet aspires for devotion to Me is doomed to perdition, stupid and dull-witted."
All that I have done in my posting is establish the limitations of Shiva in certain aspects....Shastras very clearly say, "Traiakhsa: ShoolapaNi: Purusho Jaayate". i.e the three-eyed, holder of tri-shoola (meaning shiva) is born. That which is born will die and cannot be Brahman. That which is not Brahman cannot grant Moksha.
Now please try to understand the whole entire "structure" of the Hindu Pantheon. Just like you have a a government with a president, VP, Secretary of State, and the heads of various departments and portfolios, or cabinet ministers, the Supreme Lord governs this world through proxy - and all these devatas are nothing but His proxy. They are also jeevatmas....but definitely punya jeevatmas, that is why they have taken the sharira of Shiva, Ganesha, Karthikeya, Indira, Varuna etc. These are all "positions" to which they have been appointed by the Supreme Lord. He "resides" in each of them as antaryami, very much like He lives within us as antaryami. However, we are in a higher position than them in another way! In what way?
Meera-bai attained mokhsha - whereas Shiva and Brahma are still working on it. Similarly, if you decide that Moksha is what you want, you can reach there faster and before Shiva and Brahma and all these devatas do! Once you attain Moksha, you are elevated to a higher position than them. Shiva and Brahma have to live until the next pralaya - even then they do not know whether they will get their Moksha ....they are therefore continuing to live in this samsara. Shiva is a great Narayana Bhakta and medidates on Him like many people here on earth do.
I stated in the reasons for creation that the Lord created the world in "playfulness" - ruling the world by proxy is also His Play! Otherwise would he have remained the primary created and after creating Brahma, He outsourced creation itself to him! That is His playfulness. Again playfulness it is that He has appointed Shiva to govern Tamasa Guna! Playfulness it is that He has given powers to Brahma and Shiva to give boons and other earthly wishes to people! It is a play in which He is confusing you and everyone who the real Brahman is - becuase this is "treasure hunt". He confused you with the Vedas - The vedas are very very fuzzy. Again, it is His play that Ramakrishna, Ramana, and other took birth and did what they did! This is all a Game! You have to use your intelligence to "crack the code" of creation and realize that Sriman Narayana is the Supreme Brahman!@ See, even among the south indian SriVaishnavites who are stauch believers of none other than Sriman Narayana, He created the division into Tengalai and Vadagalai - merely as a "play" as a confusion. It is a trap. If you fall into that trap, you lose the chance of getting Moksha in this life!!!
(contd...)
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Sudarshang
By all means, all these devatas have powers to give you what you ask for. If you want a telecom license to operate 2G, please go and ask Mr. Sibal or Raja and pay them underhand to get your work done.... but if you go to the PM, you can get your license, and perhaps he could make you the next telecom minister also - which power Mr.sibal and raja do not have!
4 purusharthas are recognized in Hindu shastras - Dharma, Artha, Kama, and Moksha. Moksh is the the highest one - a purushartha to be achieved by the Jeevatma (not the human body). The other three are needed to sustain the human body, not the aatma. If you want Artha and kama - by all means go to all the devatas, propitiate all the 9 planets ...do whatever... Sriman Narayana has given powers to all these 330 crore devatas to give whatever they can within their "limitations". He has reserved for Himself, the portfolio or the function of Moksha. That is why Ravana became so powerful getting boons from Shiva. But when Ravana asked for Moksha, Shiva said that is your enemy's department. Ravana it is well known what a great Shiva Bhakta!
Let me relate the story of Bhasmasura. Many of you may know this already! Bhasmasura was a great Shiva Bhakta and after years of penance obtained a boon from Shiva that whoever's head he touches will become ashes! Shiva said "so be it". Immediately, Bhasmasura wanted to test his new power - and who was before him? Shiva ran, Bhasmasura following him to test his new power....Shiva prayed to Narayana for help. Narayana appeared before Bhasmasura in his beautiful "Mohini Avatar". Smitten by Her Beauty Bhasmasura forgot all about Shiva whom he was chasing! Attention thus diverted Shiva went back home to His abode in Kailash. Now Bhasmasura and Mohini started talking ...Bhasmasura related the story of how he got this boon from Shiva and was chasing him! Mohini told Bhasmasura - "you are fool to believe Shiva's boon would work! if you want try touching your own head!". that fool of Bhasmasura touched his own head and became ashes! Like this, there are several stories of how people that have obtained boons from Shiva have been notorious and a problem to others! Ravana, Tripurasura, Baanasura, etc.
4 purusharthas are recognized in Hindu shastras - Dharma, Artha, Kama, and Moksha. Moksh is the the highest one - a purushartha to be achieved by the Jeevatma (not the human body). The other three are needed to sustain the human body, not the aatma. If you want Artha and kama - by all means go to all the devatas, propitiate all the 9 planets ...do whatever... Sriman Narayana has given powers to all these 330 crore devatas to give whatever they can within their "limitations". He has reserved for Himself, the portfolio or the function of Moksha. That is why Ravana became so powerful getting boons from Shiva. But when Ravana asked for Moksha, Shiva said that is your enemy's department. Ravana it is well known what a great Shiva Bhakta!
Let me relate the story of Bhasmasura. Many of you may know this already! Bhasmasura was a great Shiva Bhakta and after years of penance obtained a boon from Shiva that whoever's head he touches will become ashes! Shiva said "so be it". Immediately, Bhasmasura wanted to test his new power - and who was before him? Shiva ran, Bhasmasura following him to test his new power....Shiva prayed to Narayana for help. Narayana appeared before Bhasmasura in his beautiful "Mohini Avatar". Smitten by Her Beauty Bhasmasura forgot all about Shiva whom he was chasing! Attention thus diverted Shiva went back home to His abode in Kailash. Now Bhasmasura and Mohini started talking ...Bhasmasura related the story of how he got this boon from Shiva and was chasing him! Mohini told Bhasmasura - "you are fool to believe Shiva's boon would work! if you want try touching your own head!". that fool of Bhasmasura touched his own head and became ashes! Like this, there are several stories of how people that have obtained boons from Shiva have been notorious and a problem to others! Ravana, Tripurasura, Baanasura, etc.
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Sudarshang
Antaryami Structure of Trinity
Lord Sriman Narayana has taken many many forms and controls the creation in those forms. Three of His important forms are Aniruddha, Pradyumna, and Shankarshana. Aniruddha is the antaryami in Brahma. In the "body of Brahma" the real creator is Anirudhdha. Pradyumna is the antaryami inside "Vishnu" - It He Himself, using His form, Controlling an external manifestation of Himself! Shankarshana is the Antaryami in Shiva.
Now let me describe how these devatas acquired the power to grant boons. When you go to Shiva temple and pray to Him, let us say for success in an exam ....and if Shiva is pleased (ie His antaryami Shankarshana is pleased), Shankarshana who is using the body of Shiva grants you the boon to be successful in the exam. Therefore even though it appears as if Shiva is granting you a boon, it is not HIM - it is His antaryami Sriman Narayana in the form of Shankarshana that is granting you the boon.
Lord Sriman Narayana has taken many many forms and controls the creation in those forms. Three of His important forms are Aniruddha, Pradyumna, and Shankarshana. Aniruddha is the antaryami in Brahma. In the "body of Brahma" the real creator is Anirudhdha. Pradyumna is the antaryami inside "Vishnu" - It He Himself, using His form, Controlling an external manifestation of Himself! Shankarshana is the Antaryami in Shiva.
Now let me describe how these devatas acquired the power to grant boons. When you go to Shiva temple and pray to Him, let us say for success in an exam ....and if Shiva is pleased (ie His antaryami Shankarshana is pleased), Shankarshana who is using the body of Shiva grants you the boon to be successful in the exam. Therefore even though it appears as if Shiva is granting you a boon, it is not HIM - it is His antaryami Sriman Narayana in the form of Shankarshana that is granting you the boon.
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Sudarshang
I am now borrowing from what Suniti-ji posted in Subhashita:
aakaashaat patitam toyam yathagacchati saagaram
sarvadevanamaskarah keshavam pratigacchati
Just like every drop of water that falls from the sky goes to the ocean
so too every namaskar to any God goes to Keshava.
Kesava is another important form of Sriman Narayana. He got that name from killing an asura by name "Kesi"
Let me correlate her shloka with this story from Mahabharata.
During the time they were in the forest for 12+1 years, Arjuna was preparing for the war by doing penance and collecting divya-astras. Having collected great cache of weapons from Indira, now Krishna told him to do penance on Shiva for his Pasupataastra. Many of you know the story that Shiva appeared as a hunter, and they together killed a boar etc. Finally, Arjuna got Pasupatastra from Shiva. Now during the 13th year, Arjuna misues the Pasupatastra to show his prowess over prakriti! Shiva gets upset by this behavior and warns Arjuna that the astra is not meant to be misused like this. So saying, he tells Arjuna, "let this weapon be with me, when you want it, come and get it!" Arjuna agrees.
Now, in the Mahabharata war, Arjuna is fighting, I think, Karna, and has an urgent need for the weapon. He tell Krishna, "please drive fast and go to Kailash, I want to get Pasupatastra from Shiva and return!" Krishna laughs and says, "Arjuna you are in middle of an important battle and you want me to drive you Kailash, in an instant, just like that? That is not possible. Do one thing, worship me and request for the Pasupatastra". Arjuna got down, gathered some flowers from nearby, offered at the feet of Krishna and requested for the weapon. And there it was! he got it, used it, and won the battle. That night when Arjuna was asleep, Shiva came in His dream and blessed him....And there what did Arjuna see? The same flowers that Arjuna submitted at Krishna's feet were on Shiva's Head!!!!
aakaashaat patitam toyam yathagacchati saagaram
sarvadevanamaskarah keshavam pratigacchati
Just like every drop of water that falls from the sky goes to the ocean
so too every namaskar to any God goes to Keshava.
Kesava is another important form of Sriman Narayana. He got that name from killing an asura by name "Kesi"
Let me correlate her shloka with this story from Mahabharata.
During the time they were in the forest for 12+1 years, Arjuna was preparing for the war by doing penance and collecting divya-astras. Having collected great cache of weapons from Indira, now Krishna told him to do penance on Shiva for his Pasupataastra. Many of you know the story that Shiva appeared as a hunter, and they together killed a boar etc. Finally, Arjuna got Pasupatastra from Shiva. Now during the 13th year, Arjuna misues the Pasupatastra to show his prowess over prakriti! Shiva gets upset by this behavior and warns Arjuna that the astra is not meant to be misused like this. So saying, he tells Arjuna, "let this weapon be with me, when you want it, come and get it!" Arjuna agrees.
Now, in the Mahabharata war, Arjuna is fighting, I think, Karna, and has an urgent need for the weapon. He tell Krishna, "please drive fast and go to Kailash, I want to get Pasupatastra from Shiva and return!" Krishna laughs and says, "Arjuna you are in middle of an important battle and you want me to drive you Kailash, in an instant, just like that? That is not possible. Do one thing, worship me and request for the Pasupatastra". Arjuna got down, gathered some flowers from nearby, offered at the feet of Krishna and requested for the weapon. And there it was! he got it, used it, and won the battle. That night when Arjuna was asleep, Shiva came in His dream and blessed him....And there what did Arjuna see? The same flowers that Arjuna submitted at Krishna's feet were on Shiva's Head!!!!
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Sudarshang
All the prayers you offer to any devata finally goes to HIM. Because He is the antaryami inside each of them. He is the Antaryami inside each of us - so what is the difference between us and the devatas? They belong to a "different" "nature" than us - they have some higher powers to do things we cannot do - but theirs is also a body that willl perish one fine day. their Atma will also get separated from their body. At that time, whether they will go to Moksha or not will depend on their Karma in this birth. Shiva thought it was his Dharma to protect Baanasura and therefore went to war with Krishna. Was comprehensive defeated. He then went to Krishna and said, "Krishna, you are Sriman Narayana. You appointed me to this position of Shiva so that I can do my Karma. Now if you would please spare me and my Bhakta I would be highly obliged." He is the one that showed Gantakarna, and Markandeya the path to Moksha through Sriman Narayana. He knows He cannot give you moksha, but is a benevolent devata that will give you what he can. Why go through Him, when you have a direct approach?
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Sudarshang
Karma, Gyana, Bhakti Marga/Yogas/paths.
All three paths are complementary to each other and not mutually exclusive. Karma Yoga is the starting point for the vast majority of the world - but Bhakti yoga appears easier to start.
The therapy is not the same for everyone because each starts with a different prarabdha karma based on his/her sanchita karma. Your prarabdha karma is the fundamental obstacle for Bhakti or Gyana to start. that is why for people born in three varnas Karma Yoga is emphasized. As you perform your "Niyatam Karma" the Lord helps you by removing the Karma that is blocking the blossoming of Gyana and Bhakti. However, that is only a start - you have to continue growing in all three paths simultaenously. The best analogy to describe the growth is school education. You can tell your 7 year old that you have to study well in order to get admission in IITs. But that 7 year old has to go through 10+2 schooling before he can get there! If Bhakti towards sriman Narayana has happened automatically in this birth, that means you are carrying you Bhakti that you left off in previous birth. Similarly Gyana - one has to graduate in gyana and all the devatas including shiva, etc help in the expansion of individual gyana. When one fine day you realize that Sriman Narayana is the Supreme Brahman, you will find yourself telling Shiva, "I already spent some 1000 life cycle worshipping you,and Now you are telling me!"
for those that prefer to remain neutral - the so called "secular" people may start with karma yoga - but there again you need to understand the karma means "Niyatam Karma" - what has been assigned to you - as per what is stated in the shastras. As you perform your karma, the Lord removes the karma that is obstructing your growth and therefore gyan and bhakti blossom from that.
All three paths are complementary to each other and not mutually exclusive. Karma Yoga is the starting point for the vast majority of the world - but Bhakti yoga appears easier to start.
The therapy is not the same for everyone because each starts with a different prarabdha karma based on his/her sanchita karma. Your prarabdha karma is the fundamental obstacle for Bhakti or Gyana to start. that is why for people born in three varnas Karma Yoga is emphasized. As you perform your "Niyatam Karma" the Lord helps you by removing the Karma that is blocking the blossoming of Gyana and Bhakti. However, that is only a start - you have to continue growing in all three paths simultaenously. The best analogy to describe the growth is school education. You can tell your 7 year old that you have to study well in order to get admission in IITs. But that 7 year old has to go through 10+2 schooling before he can get there! If Bhakti towards sriman Narayana has happened automatically in this birth, that means you are carrying you Bhakti that you left off in previous birth. Similarly Gyana - one has to graduate in gyana and all the devatas including shiva, etc help in the expansion of individual gyana. When one fine day you realize that Sriman Narayana is the Supreme Brahman, you will find yourself telling Shiva, "I already spent some 1000 life cycle worshipping you,and Now you are telling me!"
for those that prefer to remain neutral - the so called "secular" people may start with karma yoga - but there again you need to understand the karma means "Niyatam Karma" - what has been assigned to you - as per what is stated in the shastras. As you perform your karma, the Lord removes the karma that is obstructing your growth and therefore gyan and bhakti blossom from that.
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Sudarshang
Here is a great shloka from Paaduka Shasram of Swami Desikan that is supposed to be parihara for evil influences of all 9 planets:
749. kanakaruchirA kAvyAKhyAthA shanaIscharaNOchithA
shrithagurubuDhA BhAsvadhrUpa dhvijADhipasEvithA
vihithaviBhavA nithyam viShNO: padhE maNipAdhukE!
thvamasi mahathI vishvEShAm na: shuBhA grahamaNdalI
Oh Manipaaduka! You have a gold-lustre of red hue. You have a vital
place in Ramayana etc. You move about only slowly. Gurus and learned
ones cling to You. You shine like the sun. You are worshipped by
eminent Brahmins. You stay put to the Lord's Feet permanently. (The
planets, namely, the red Angaraka, Sukra alias Kavya, Sani who is
slow moving, Guru and Budha, Soorya and Chandra-these encircle in
their paths in the celestial sphere. They will prove auspicious in
specific periods, being otherwise at other times.) But You are always
auspicious as a peculiar planetary combination, unusual this way,
conferring benefits on us permanently.
749. kanakaruchirA kAvyAKhyAthA shanaIscharaNOchithA
shrithagurubuDhA BhAsvadhrUpa dhvijADhipasEvithA
vihithaviBhavA nithyam viShNO: padhE maNipAdhukE!
thvamasi mahathI vishvEShAm na: shuBhA grahamaNdalI
Oh Manipaaduka! You have a gold-lustre of red hue. You have a vital
place in Ramayana etc. You move about only slowly. Gurus and learned
ones cling to You. You shine like the sun. You are worshipped by
eminent Brahmins. You stay put to the Lord's Feet permanently. (The
planets, namely, the red Angaraka, Sukra alias Kavya, Sani who is
slow moving, Guru and Budha, Soorya and Chandra-these encircle in
their paths in the celestial sphere. They will prove auspicious in
specific periods, being otherwise at other times.) But You are always
auspicious as a peculiar planetary combination, unusual this way,
conferring benefits on us permanently.
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astrohajare
- Contributor
- Posts: 110
- Joined: 29 Dec 2011
"Here you are saying Vedas are very very fuzzy"In other thread you are saying "Shiva is not final authority" as per vedas. What you want to say actually .Please open your heart at this site here is a lot of learned people they can explain you as long as you want to learn.Empty your mind & learn.I can tell you a big secret out of five enemies (Sex,Anger,Greed,Attachment & Ego) Ego is the worst.This is my experince that came after hard lessons of life.Worship any god without thinking who is big or small ,Be happy & keep happy those around .Frustration & sadness is enemy of spiritualism.Personaly speaking I dont want Moksha.
This body is best instrument to worship Narayana , Shiva & shakti.
Two lines from an urdu poet:
"Jab Tak mila na yaar judai ka malal tha,
Ab yeh malal hai ki tamanna nikal gai."
Means till i had not met my beloved ,i was very sad of seperation.Now I met but still sad because no more desire.
This body is best instrument to worship Narayana , Shiva & shakti.
Two lines from an urdu poet:
"Jab Tak mila na yaar judai ka malal tha,
Ab yeh malal hai ki tamanna nikal gai."
Means till i had not met my beloved ,i was very sad of seperation.Now I met but still sad because no more desire.
