Sri:
Srimathe Raamaanujaaya Nama:
I bow to Kuresan, the mahatma that gave his eyes to save the SriSampradayam. who established in Kirumikanda cholan's court that Sriman Narayanan is the paratattvam when the King asked him to signoff on "shivaat parataram naasti"
1.The word Narayana means (naaraa: + ayana) “The basis of all things that exist.” Can you
tell me any God’s name that means the same? By the meaning of the name, He is the God of
God’s, the Supreme Brahman, the cause of creation, the cause of this world's existence, in
whom all the universes will finally blend and rest (Please remember that this includes the
people of other religions on earth, and if there do exist, people of other religions that are
followed on other planets in other universes also!!!)
2.He is the propagator of Sattva guna, the guna that leads you to the “right” knowledge; On
the contrary compare with Brahma who is the propagator of Rajas, and Shiva the propagator of
Tamas. Worshipping them can only lead to incorrect knowledge about who is the root cause of
the universe, the only God our scriptures, the vedas, tell you to worship.
3.Sriman Narayana’s avatar is Vishnu. Vishnu comprehensively defeated Shiva in a celestial
war once upon a time. Brahma and the Devas were all witnesses to this war. Simply with the
sound of “Hoomm” Vishnu disarmed Shiva, who accepted his defeat and went back. This story is
told to Rama by Parasurama when the two meet after Rama’s marriage to Sita (in Sri Ramayana).
4.Again in Sri Ramayana, Ram (avatar of Sriman Narayana) breaks the “shiva bow” in the Sita
swayamvar.This bow originaly belonged to Shiva who gave it to Janaka's ancestors.
5.Shiva has killed his own Bhaktas (Tripurasuras). Sriman Narayana has always protected His
Bhaktas. Even when Brighu muni kicks Him on his chest, He held the muni’s leg and comforted
his leg which must have been in pain having kicked the Supreme Brahman! Many Shiva Bhaktas
were slain by Sriman Narayana. None of Sriman Narayan Bhaktas were or will ever be slain by
Shiva!
6.Shiva goes to cremation grounds every night and applies the ashes from burnt dead-bodies on
himself – a curious (tamasic) practice that his own wife Parvati questions and dislikes.
Continued...
Sriman Narayana is the Supreme Brahman, the God of all Gods!
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-
Sudarshang
7.Shiva’s another name is Rudra. It means one who runs and cries. He got the name because he
thought he was a very unclean person and was not satisfied with the names that Brahma gave
him initially. So he cried and ran around asking for more names. That is when he was named as
Shiva, which means bestower of auspiciousness. None of Shiva’s name comes even close to the
meaning “basis of existence” that Narayana means.
8.“AUM” is the best mantra according to the Vedas and most people know that it is the mantra
that signifies creation. What does it mean? A stands for Narayana (akaaraartho Vishnu:, and
akshaaraaNaam akaarosmi), U stands for “Exists ONLY for" (U is called vyakta chaturthi
vibhakti. Reference: Sanskrit Grammer by Panini), M stands for Jeevatma. This mantra
establishes that the Jeevatma exists ONLY FOR Narayana. Therefore worshipping anybody else
other than Sriman Narayana is against the true nature of human beings who are all nothing but
Jeevatmas.
9.Sriman Narayana transformed a part of HIS own body into the world that we live it. When the
whole entire world (universe) is part of HIS body, stating that He is the only God to be
worshipped is the truth and not radical! By that definition,all Gods worshipped in Hinduism,
and by other religions are also part of His body! (Remember, they are only but a miniscule
part of His body and not HIM ...equanimity with HIM is/was/will be never an option)
10.Sriman Narayana first created (from his body) the moola-prakirti, that transformed into
Mahan, that transformed into Ahankar, that then transformed into the 5 senses, 5 sense-
intellects, and 5 primary elements – space, air, water, fire, and land. After he created all
that, then he created Brahma, gave him the Vedas and told him to expand the creation.
Brahma's first sons were the Sanat Kumaras. Brahma asked them to expand the creation but they
refused stating that they want to meditate and dedicate their life to Sriman Narayana who is
the Supreme Brahman.
11.Brahma got angry with Sanat Kumaras and from the “anger” Shiva was born, from the intense
heat of Brahma’s forehead. That is why he is said to be "short-tempered".
12.Ravana of Sri Ramayana was a great Shiva Bhakta. He got numerous boons from Shiva.
However, when he asked for the ultimate boon of “Moksha”, Shiva refused stating that “That is
Sriman Narayana’s department”.
13.Markandeya was another great shiva Bhakta. When he wanted Moksha, Shiva referred him to
Sriman Narayana.
Continued...
thought he was a very unclean person and was not satisfied with the names that Brahma gave
him initially. So he cried and ran around asking for more names. That is when he was named as
Shiva, which means bestower of auspiciousness. None of Shiva’s name comes even close to the
meaning “basis of existence” that Narayana means.
8.“AUM” is the best mantra according to the Vedas and most people know that it is the mantra
that signifies creation. What does it mean? A stands for Narayana (akaaraartho Vishnu:, and
akshaaraaNaam akaarosmi), U stands for “Exists ONLY for" (U is called vyakta chaturthi
vibhakti. Reference: Sanskrit Grammer by Panini), M stands for Jeevatma. This mantra
establishes that the Jeevatma exists ONLY FOR Narayana. Therefore worshipping anybody else
other than Sriman Narayana is against the true nature of human beings who are all nothing but
Jeevatmas.
9.Sriman Narayana transformed a part of HIS own body into the world that we live it. When the
whole entire world (universe) is part of HIS body, stating that He is the only God to be
worshipped is the truth and not radical! By that definition,all Gods worshipped in Hinduism,
and by other religions are also part of His body! (Remember, they are only but a miniscule
part of His body and not HIM ...equanimity with HIM is/was/will be never an option)
10.Sriman Narayana first created (from his body) the moola-prakirti, that transformed into
Mahan, that transformed into Ahankar, that then transformed into the 5 senses, 5 sense-
intellects, and 5 primary elements – space, air, water, fire, and land. After he created all
that, then he created Brahma, gave him the Vedas and told him to expand the creation.
Brahma's first sons were the Sanat Kumaras. Brahma asked them to expand the creation but they
refused stating that they want to meditate and dedicate their life to Sriman Narayana who is
the Supreme Brahman.
11.Brahma got angry with Sanat Kumaras and from the “anger” Shiva was born, from the intense
heat of Brahma’s forehead. That is why he is said to be "short-tempered".
12.Ravana of Sri Ramayana was a great Shiva Bhakta. He got numerous boons from Shiva.
However, when he asked for the ultimate boon of “Moksha”, Shiva refused stating that “That is
Sriman Narayana’s department”.
13.Markandeya was another great shiva Bhakta. When he wanted Moksha, Shiva referred him to
Sriman Narayana.
Continued...
-
Sudarshang
14.Gantakarna was a “pishach (type of ghost?)” but a great shiva bhakta and Vishnu hater that
he used to a wear a bell on his ear. Whenever he realized somebody was about to utter
Vishnu/Narayana’s name, he would turn his head and the bell would ring in his ear helping him
to avoid hearing Vishnu/Narayana’s name. Pleased with his devotion when Shiva asked him what
he wanted. When he asked for Moksha, Shiva referred him to Krishna. Gantakarna met Krishna at
Badrinath and attained Moksha. There is a shrine for Gantakarna at the Badrinath temple.
15.In the Banasura war, the entire Shiva family including Parvati, Skanda, and Ganesha fight
against Krishna. Parvati takes the form of Kaali to fight that war. Even Agni devata joins
the war on Shiva’s side. All of them were comprehensively beaten and chased away by Krishna.
16.Brahma used to have 5 heads. Shiva also had 5 heads. Feeling jealous of his own father,
Shiva took out one of Brahma’s heads. Brahma cursed Shiva that the head he took out will get
stuck to shiva’s hand. To get rid of the curse, Shiva travels the 14 worlds of this universe
begging for mercy. That is when he got the name “Kapaleeshwara”. That name was given to him
so that people worshipping him can remember his deed and his curse! That curse was finally
removed at Badrinath where a Sriman Narayana let a drop of his sweat fall on the skull in his
hand. The Skull cracked into several pieces and fell down. That place where one of the pieces
fell, near Bardinath is called Brahma Kapalam. You can still visit that place till today!
This story tells how auspicious is the bestower of auspiciousness.
17. Brahama has a life-span after which he will die. He lives 100 Brahma years which roughly
equals 311 trillion human years. The present Brahma is 51 years of age. That means roughly
155 trillion years have been completed in the present creation. Shiva also lives the same age
as Brahma. At the end of 100 Brahma years there will be a maha-pralayam. All the existing
universes will be destroyed. The order of destruction is the reverse order of creation. All
Jeevatmas right up to Shiva and Brahma will swallowed by Sriman Narayana.After that, He will
swallow the prakriti in that order it was created. Space is the last element that will be
swallowed in Prakriti. We famously called the trinity in Hinduism as creator, operator and
destroyer. If Sriman Narayana is swallowing Brahma and Shiva and destroying everything from
created world to even space, who is the real destroyer? Shiva or Narayana? If Narayana
created Brahma, who is the real-creator? Brahma or Narayana? Therefore Narayana is the real
creator, protector, and destroyer - the single trinity. Inside Brahma He exists as antaryami
with the name Anirudha. Within Shiva He exists as antaryami with the name Sankarshana.His
form as Pradhyumna becomes Vishnu the Protector.
continued...
he used to a wear a bell on his ear. Whenever he realized somebody was about to utter
Vishnu/Narayana’s name, he would turn his head and the bell would ring in his ear helping him
to avoid hearing Vishnu/Narayana’s name. Pleased with his devotion when Shiva asked him what
he wanted. When he asked for Moksha, Shiva referred him to Krishna. Gantakarna met Krishna at
Badrinath and attained Moksha. There is a shrine for Gantakarna at the Badrinath temple.
15.In the Banasura war, the entire Shiva family including Parvati, Skanda, and Ganesha fight
against Krishna. Parvati takes the form of Kaali to fight that war. Even Agni devata joins
the war on Shiva’s side. All of them were comprehensively beaten and chased away by Krishna.
16.Brahma used to have 5 heads. Shiva also had 5 heads. Feeling jealous of his own father,
Shiva took out one of Brahma’s heads. Brahma cursed Shiva that the head he took out will get
stuck to shiva’s hand. To get rid of the curse, Shiva travels the 14 worlds of this universe
begging for mercy. That is when he got the name “Kapaleeshwara”. That name was given to him
so that people worshipping him can remember his deed and his curse! That curse was finally
removed at Badrinath where a Sriman Narayana let a drop of his sweat fall on the skull in his
hand. The Skull cracked into several pieces and fell down. That place where one of the pieces
fell, near Bardinath is called Brahma Kapalam. You can still visit that place till today!
This story tells how auspicious is the bestower of auspiciousness.
17. Brahama has a life-span after which he will die. He lives 100 Brahma years which roughly
equals 311 trillion human years. The present Brahma is 51 years of age. That means roughly
155 trillion years have been completed in the present creation. Shiva also lives the same age
as Brahma. At the end of 100 Brahma years there will be a maha-pralayam. All the existing
universes will be destroyed. The order of destruction is the reverse order of creation. All
Jeevatmas right up to Shiva and Brahma will swallowed by Sriman Narayana.After that, He will
swallow the prakriti in that order it was created. Space is the last element that will be
swallowed in Prakriti. We famously called the trinity in Hinduism as creator, operator and
destroyer. If Sriman Narayana is swallowing Brahma and Shiva and destroying everything from
created world to even space, who is the real destroyer? Shiva or Narayana? If Narayana
created Brahma, who is the real-creator? Brahma or Narayana? Therefore Narayana is the real
creator, protector, and destroyer - the single trinity. Inside Brahma He exists as antaryami
with the name Anirudha. Within Shiva He exists as antaryami with the name Sankarshana.His
form as Pradhyumna becomes Vishnu the Protector.
continued...
-
Sudarshang
17. The Vedas unanimously proclaim Sriman Narayana as the Supreme Brahman. (Purusha Sukta
sings His praise only) as the one without a second! When He is without a second, how can
anyone even proclaim there can be second GOD or anybody else as The GOD? Naaraayanopanishad
goes on further to state - "Ekohavai naaraayaNa aaseet, na brahma, na eesana:" It not only
estblishes that Only naaraayana was there, it even negates the prior existence of Brahma and
Shiva (Eesana here).
18. If you still disagree with that, and are a Shiva worshipper or a worshipper of anybody
other than “Sriman Narayana” (or belong to another religion) you can ask your respective God
itself to show you who the Supreme Brahman, the only God that is to be worshipped is. They
will all say, in unison, “Sriman Narayana”. However, you need a lot of Sattva Guna to hear
their answer! (BTW, Shiva and Brahma both are Narayana Bhaktas, know that He is the Supreme
Brahman, and both meditate on him regularly to achieve their own Mokshas. Neither of them
even know what Sri Vaikuntha looks like or where it is! They are also living their prarabdha
karma much like you and me!)
19. We are living in a world which was created from a part of Sriman Narayana’s body. You and
I are all a part of His Body! He lives within each of us as Antaryami, observing each of our
statements and action. What is wrong in considering us traitors if we don’t even acknowledge
the source of our origin (let alone His Supremacy)! When our Atma belongs to HIM and is His
property, if we consider it our own, are we not stealing something that belongs to HIM? Still worse, if we say it belongs to somebody else, not only are we stealing, but aslo telling a lie that the stolen object belongs to somebody else!
19. 99.99% of the world is asleep in Tamo guna running after everything else in life except
that antaryami sitting inside of us and observing each of our thoughts and actions. To a
world immersed in tamo guna, truth may sometimes sound radical. Can't help it!
20. Finally, I would like to share one good thing I have known in my life: my
request/prescription/suggestion to the world immersed in Tamo guna is "please make an attempt
to grow some sattva guna and as you keep growing in it, the true knowledge will reveal
itself!"
I signoff - praying to the ONLY GOD, Sriman Narayana, to bestow auspiciousness and happiness
on all life forms in leela-vibhuti.
Azhwar Thiruvadigale Charanam, Emperumaanar Thiruvadigale Charanam, Jeeyar Thiruvadigale
Charanam. Satyam Satyam Satyam puna: Satyam Yatiraajo Jagatguru:
Sudarshan
sings His praise only) as the one without a second! When He is without a second, how can
anyone even proclaim there can be second GOD or anybody else as The GOD? Naaraayanopanishad
goes on further to state - "Ekohavai naaraayaNa aaseet, na brahma, na eesana:" It not only
estblishes that Only naaraayana was there, it even negates the prior existence of Brahma and
Shiva (Eesana here).
18. If you still disagree with that, and are a Shiva worshipper or a worshipper of anybody
other than “Sriman Narayana” (or belong to another religion) you can ask your respective God
itself to show you who the Supreme Brahman, the only God that is to be worshipped is. They
will all say, in unison, “Sriman Narayana”. However, you need a lot of Sattva Guna to hear
their answer! (BTW, Shiva and Brahma both are Narayana Bhaktas, know that He is the Supreme
Brahman, and both meditate on him regularly to achieve their own Mokshas. Neither of them
even know what Sri Vaikuntha looks like or where it is! They are also living their prarabdha
karma much like you and me!)
19. We are living in a world which was created from a part of Sriman Narayana’s body. You and
I are all a part of His Body! He lives within each of us as Antaryami, observing each of our
statements and action. What is wrong in considering us traitors if we don’t even acknowledge
the source of our origin (let alone His Supremacy)! When our Atma belongs to HIM and is His
property, if we consider it our own, are we not stealing something that belongs to HIM? Still worse, if we say it belongs to somebody else, not only are we stealing, but aslo telling a lie that the stolen object belongs to somebody else!
19. 99.99% of the world is asleep in Tamo guna running after everything else in life except
that antaryami sitting inside of us and observing each of our thoughts and actions. To a
world immersed in tamo guna, truth may sometimes sound radical. Can't help it!
20. Finally, I would like to share one good thing I have known in my life: my
request/prescription/suggestion to the world immersed in Tamo guna is "please make an attempt
to grow some sattva guna and as you keep growing in it, the true knowledge will reveal
itself!"
I signoff - praying to the ONLY GOD, Sriman Narayana, to bestow auspiciousness and happiness
on all life forms in leela-vibhuti.
Azhwar Thiruvadigale Charanam, Emperumaanar Thiruvadigale Charanam, Jeeyar Thiruvadigale
Charanam. Satyam Satyam Satyam puna: Satyam Yatiraajo Jagatguru:
Sudarshan
-
astrohajare
- Contributor
- Posts: 110
- Joined: 29 Dec 2011
These type of confusions are created by so many people in past & present. A person can worship to whom he or she like to get peace of mind.
Sadashiva brahmendral in one of his poems says "Hari Hara Bedha Dhikaram Dheeram."
Those persons who says Hari is great, hara is great or ambal is great or Jesus is great or Allah is great, u are only fooling urself. Go beyond the ego and see where you are and then talk.
Names and forms are just an indentification of a particular thing or object when it comes to individuality, but in central core, everything is same.
Please kindly awake and do not create disturbance here in the names of God. It is purely your ignorancy Mr. Sudarshang that you are telling such foolish things. If you tell such things to Jnanis, they will laugh at you.
Please understand the concept of Godship and God clearly first.
"Sa Brahma Sa Shiva Sa Hari Sa Indra so akshara parmaswarat"
"Sahrasara Shirath Purushaha"
Vedas are telling only about Purusha, did not name it means one who resides within and not 1000-headed person, but one who is part of the cosmic consciousness, then only one can say "Saharasara Shirhaha"
Regards
Narayan
Those persons who says Hari is great, hara is great or ambal is great or Jesus is great or Allah is great, u are only fooling urself. Go beyond the ego and see where you are and then talk.
Names and forms are just an indentification of a particular thing or object when it comes to individuality, but in central core, everything is same.
Please kindly awake and do not create disturbance here in the names of God. It is purely your ignorancy Mr. Sudarshang that you are telling such foolish things. If you tell such things to Jnanis, they will laugh at you.
Please understand the concept of Godship and God clearly first.
"Sa Brahma Sa Shiva Sa Hari Sa Indra so akshara parmaswarat"
"Sahrasara Shirath Purushaha"
Vedas are telling only about Purusha, did not name it means one who resides within and not 1000-headed person, but one who is part of the cosmic consciousness, then only one can say "Saharasara Shirhaha"
Regards
Narayan
-
Sudarshang
Narayan,
Do you know the story of Nambaaduvan popularly called Kaisika puranam (part of varaha puranam). Please read the 18th assurance he gives to the Brahmarakshasan. (you can google for the story). In your interest, please do not accrue more papa karma unknowingly...
Secondly, the pramanan you have quoted is slightly incorrect. It is ""Sa Brahma Sa Shiva: Seendra: so akshara: parmaswarat". Sa Hari: is not part of that segment taken from Naaraayanopanishad. I am glad you quoted from Naaraayanopanishad, i am therefore sure you must have already read other lines in that upanishad that establish clearly that Naaraayna is the Supreme Brahman. For example: Antarbahishcha tat sarvam vyaapya naaraayNa: stitah and vishvam naaraayaNam devam aksharam paramam prabhum.
Thirdly, if you are trying to disagree with the statement that Naaraayana is the Supreme Brahman, why are you quoting from Purusha Suktam? That Purusha Suktam is entirely composed in praise of Naaraayana and that Purusha refers to Naaraayana has been clarified in many places in many scriptures. That same purusha-suktam has in it "Hrishchate Lakshmishcha Patniau" - so, who has Hri: (Boodevi) and Lakshmi as his wifes? Shiva? Indira? Brahma?
Come on sir, these people (the 33 crore devatas including Shiva, four-faced Brahma, Skanda, Ganesha, etc.) are very much like you and me living their own prarabdha karma. Of course they have taken better birth than us owing to their balance of karma. Anyone that can perform 100 Ashwamedha Yagna can become Indira. These positions can all be attained through Karma. The position of NaaraayaNa can never be attained by any Jeevatma. He is "Ekameva Advitiyam."
Also I request you to kindly refrain from quoting people like Sadashiva Brahmendra - nothing against him - but only shastras count as shabda pramanam when it comes to discussion regarding the Supreme Brahman, the Creator of the Creator!
Do you know the story of Nambaaduvan popularly called Kaisika puranam (part of varaha puranam). Please read the 18th assurance he gives to the Brahmarakshasan. (you can google for the story). In your interest, please do not accrue more papa karma unknowingly...
Secondly, the pramanan you have quoted is slightly incorrect. It is ""Sa Brahma Sa Shiva: Seendra: so akshara: parmaswarat". Sa Hari: is not part of that segment taken from Naaraayanopanishad. I am glad you quoted from Naaraayanopanishad, i am therefore sure you must have already read other lines in that upanishad that establish clearly that Naaraayna is the Supreme Brahman. For example: Antarbahishcha tat sarvam vyaapya naaraayNa: stitah and vishvam naaraayaNam devam aksharam paramam prabhum.
Thirdly, if you are trying to disagree with the statement that Naaraayana is the Supreme Brahman, why are you quoting from Purusha Suktam? That Purusha Suktam is entirely composed in praise of Naaraayana and that Purusha refers to Naaraayana has been clarified in many places in many scriptures. That same purusha-suktam has in it "Hrishchate Lakshmishcha Patniau" - so, who has Hri: (Boodevi) and Lakshmi as his wifes? Shiva? Indira? Brahma?
Come on sir, these people (the 33 crore devatas including Shiva, four-faced Brahma, Skanda, Ganesha, etc.) are very much like you and me living their own prarabdha karma. Of course they have taken better birth than us owing to their balance of karma. Anyone that can perform 100 Ashwamedha Yagna can become Indira. These positions can all be attained through Karma. The position of NaaraayaNa can never be attained by any Jeevatma. He is "Ekameva Advitiyam."
Also I request you to kindly refrain from quoting people like Sadashiva Brahmendra - nothing against him - but only shastras count as shabda pramanam when it comes to discussion regarding the Supreme Brahman, the Creator of the Creator!
Sudarshang:
I have no opposition to any gods, to me everbody is same. It is how you visualize.
If for you, you are naming the Supreme Brahman as Sriman Narayana, I have absolutely no issues, you may please continue in the same way.
Please note: Supreme Brahman is devoid of any names or forms. When that is the case, how you are attributing a name or form. You yourself is not there.
When you are talking about Ekameva Advitiyam, there should not be any separate entity or a separate individuality. Even the "you" should not be there. Hence Rama, Krishna, Jesus, Sriman Narayana, Ambal or Allah are all same to me.
It is like if you put some salt into a glass of water, does the salt have an identity or a name of its own after that or can you separate the salt from the water after that? Salt has an existence till time only it is dissolved in water and till that time only, it is called as salt. You cannot call it as a salt once it is dissolved in water and neither water has any color or any attributes of its own.
The same way, if you are a branch of the same tree which's branches or roots are spread all over, you will definitely not see a separate entity and also, you will not definitely not say Shiva is less superior than Narayana and Narayana is extremely powerful than shiva that even shiva has to be granted moksha by sriman narayana.
These are all cheap talks. Hence, I believe we can stop here. You may please continue in your own way and please leave me.
Regards
Narayanan
I have no opposition to any gods, to me everbody is same. It is how you visualize.
If for you, you are naming the Supreme Brahman as Sriman Narayana, I have absolutely no issues, you may please continue in the same way.
Please note: Supreme Brahman is devoid of any names or forms. When that is the case, how you are attributing a name or form. You yourself is not there.
When you are talking about Ekameva Advitiyam, there should not be any separate entity or a separate individuality. Even the "you" should not be there. Hence Rama, Krishna, Jesus, Sriman Narayana, Ambal or Allah are all same to me.
It is like if you put some salt into a glass of water, does the salt have an identity or a name of its own after that or can you separate the salt from the water after that? Salt has an existence till time only it is dissolved in water and till that time only, it is called as salt. You cannot call it as a salt once it is dissolved in water and neither water has any color or any attributes of its own.
The same way, if you are a branch of the same tree which's branches or roots are spread all over, you will definitely not see a separate entity and also, you will not definitely not say Shiva is less superior than Narayana and Narayana is extremely powerful than shiva that even shiva has to be granted moksha by sriman narayana.
These are all cheap talks. Hence, I believe we can stop here. You may please continue in your own way and please leave me.
Regards
Narayanan
-
Sudarshang
Sir,
I am nobody to leave you, you may please leave on your own accord if that is your wish. My writing is for everybody and not for any particular individual. You chose to respond to my post and I responded back.
At the same time, I would like to thank you for the excellent points you have raised; even if by myself, these points need to be clarified for other present or future readers of this thread.
You said, "I have no opposition to any gods, to me everybody is the same. It is how you visualize".
My response; It is precisely for this reason I requested you to google for Nambaaduvan's charitram in Varaha Puranam. The 18th assurance given by Nambaaduvan is "that sin I would get if I equate Sriman Narayana to other devatas, may I get that ..." That is why again I am requesting you to kindly refrain from accruing more papa-karma even though you seem to say it unknowingly out of the conditioning you have received by living in a psuedo-secular society and having studied in an antiquated Macaulay intiated educational system.
You said, " If for you, you are naming the Supreme Brahman as Sriman Narayana ..."
My Response: Sir, it is firstly not for me, it is for the whole entire world. Secondly, I am not naming it, the Vedas that we hold as the foundation of Hinduism is naming it. Now, if you accept the Vedas as the pramaanam for the Supreme Brahman, you have accept the name the vedas have given Him."
You said, "Supreme Brahman is devoid of any names or forms ..."
My response: Completely incorrect. The same vedas, and their illustrative extensions, the itihasas and the 6 sattvika purnas - all of them unanimously not merely describe, but celebrate His Swaroopa, Roopa, Guna, and Vibhuti. Therefore HE HAS A FORM. The undeniable lakshanam of his roopa is Ksheerodhashaayitvam! Everything is real - nothing symbolic or unreal - His Aadisesha paryankam, His divya aayudhangal starting from shankam, chakram, gada, saarngam, etc, His love for yellow vastram called Peetambaram, his Urdhva-pundram, his hair, his temple, his eyebrows, his eyes, his shoulders, His feet, His consorts and their lakshanams - all these have been very vividly described and celebrated in various places in the shastras and itihasas. In fact, it is your statement that the Supreme Brahman is devoid of any names or form that does not have pramanam in our shastras.
You said, "you yourself is not there."
My Response: You and I are both as real as we can see of each other or interact with each other. This is pratyaksham. How can you deny that which is proved by pratyaksham? here and now, we are both real! Ekameva Advitiyam is proved by Sharira-Atma Bhavam and not denying the existence of shariram! Shariram is real and Atma is real. Jeevatma is the owner of the shariram, the same way as the Paramatma is the owner of the Jeevatma. Through this Sesha-Seshi bhavam, chit, achit and eeshwaran - all three tattvas exist in eternity for REAL.
Your example of Salt in Water is an incorrect drishtaantam for this situation. The tree one might be better. You can break a branch of a tree and the branch will have a separate identity. The tree has different parts - root, stem, branches, leaves, flowers, fruits etc. When we refer to a branch, we say a branch of that tree, or a fruit of that tree, or a flower of that tree. They all have individual and collective identity. Collective identity is "tree" individual identity is branch or flower or fruit etc.
The reason the salt in water in incorrect is because there is no Aikyam or dissolution of the Jeevatma with Paramatma. Even after Moksham the Jeevatma remains a paratantran at His Service - and does not ever become HIM! Therefore your theory that all "Rama, Krishna, Jesus, etc. are all the same" is incorrect and does not have any pramanam in the Hindu shastras. Saying so itself is a papa-karma and therefore please refrain from going on repeating it - I am saying this for your own good.
If you have read my response this far, and would would like to counter these clarifications, please bring pramanam from shastras or itihasas and not any sources created by other Jeevatmas.
I am nobody to leave you, you may please leave on your own accord if that is your wish. My writing is for everybody and not for any particular individual. You chose to respond to my post and I responded back.
At the same time, I would like to thank you for the excellent points you have raised; even if by myself, these points need to be clarified for other present or future readers of this thread.
You said, "I have no opposition to any gods, to me everybody is the same. It is how you visualize".
My response; It is precisely for this reason I requested you to google for Nambaaduvan's charitram in Varaha Puranam. The 18th assurance given by Nambaaduvan is "that sin I would get if I equate Sriman Narayana to other devatas, may I get that ..." That is why again I am requesting you to kindly refrain from accruing more papa-karma even though you seem to say it unknowingly out of the conditioning you have received by living in a psuedo-secular society and having studied in an antiquated Macaulay intiated educational system.
You said, " If for you, you are naming the Supreme Brahman as Sriman Narayana ..."
My Response: Sir, it is firstly not for me, it is for the whole entire world. Secondly, I am not naming it, the Vedas that we hold as the foundation of Hinduism is naming it. Now, if you accept the Vedas as the pramaanam for the Supreme Brahman, you have accept the name the vedas have given Him."
You said, "Supreme Brahman is devoid of any names or forms ..."
My response: Completely incorrect. The same vedas, and their illustrative extensions, the itihasas and the 6 sattvika purnas - all of them unanimously not merely describe, but celebrate His Swaroopa, Roopa, Guna, and Vibhuti. Therefore HE HAS A FORM. The undeniable lakshanam of his roopa is Ksheerodhashaayitvam! Everything is real - nothing symbolic or unreal - His Aadisesha paryankam, His divya aayudhangal starting from shankam, chakram, gada, saarngam, etc, His love for yellow vastram called Peetambaram, his Urdhva-pundram, his hair, his temple, his eyebrows, his eyes, his shoulders, His feet, His consorts and their lakshanams - all these have been very vividly described and celebrated in various places in the shastras and itihasas. In fact, it is your statement that the Supreme Brahman is devoid of any names or form that does not have pramanam in our shastras.
You said, "you yourself is not there."
My Response: You and I are both as real as we can see of each other or interact with each other. This is pratyaksham. How can you deny that which is proved by pratyaksham? here and now, we are both real! Ekameva Advitiyam is proved by Sharira-Atma Bhavam and not denying the existence of shariram! Shariram is real and Atma is real. Jeevatma is the owner of the shariram, the same way as the Paramatma is the owner of the Jeevatma. Through this Sesha-Seshi bhavam, chit, achit and eeshwaran - all three tattvas exist in eternity for REAL.
Your example of Salt in Water is an incorrect drishtaantam for this situation. The tree one might be better. You can break a branch of a tree and the branch will have a separate identity. The tree has different parts - root, stem, branches, leaves, flowers, fruits etc. When we refer to a branch, we say a branch of that tree, or a fruit of that tree, or a flower of that tree. They all have individual and collective identity. Collective identity is "tree" individual identity is branch or flower or fruit etc.
The reason the salt in water in incorrect is because there is no Aikyam or dissolution of the Jeevatma with Paramatma. Even after Moksham the Jeevatma remains a paratantran at His Service - and does not ever become HIM! Therefore your theory that all "Rama, Krishna, Jesus, etc. are all the same" is incorrect and does not have any pramanam in the Hindu shastras. Saying so itself is a papa-karma and therefore please refrain from going on repeating it - I am saying this for your own good.
If you have read my response this far, and would would like to counter these clarifications, please bring pramanam from shastras or itihasas and not any sources created by other Jeevatmas.
Sudarshangji:
You may please continue. Everything is to be understood by experience to have a broader and clear aspect of vision. Meanwhile, I do not claim anything as I am a big zero. But, what I felt from some things, I explained, that's all.
I have a request to you Sudarshangji, please kindly do not understand things from ego point. Once one crosses that level, this divine love blossoms, then only the picture will be clear regarding everything.
The forms are part of duality, not of the supreme brahman. Supreme Brahman is in the state of nonduality where all forms merge to become formless, absolute silence state.
Reading so many vedic books and theorotic books from reality helps none, but even a bout of experience by grace will have crystal clarity by leaps and bounds.
I have no doubt a person who has experienced, will not talk about only Hinduism or will never say My god is supreme or Sriman Narayana is only the right god or supreme brahman. As per scriptures, from the level of form ships of Gods, Narayana is considered more important, correct, but it does not in any way mean that other gods are lower.
This is where grace of experience helps one to imbibe that divine love which crosses beyond all regions or caste, creed and sector. Divinity is all about that. It is that unending love which encompasses everything.
Sir, If you still say that Sriman Narayana is supreme and Lord Shiva and Ambal are at lower level and has to wait at Sriman Narayana's gate for Moksha, what can I say?
May God give you clear clarity of vision to understand things better in its own perspective.
Regards
Narayanan
You may please continue. Everything is to be understood by experience to have a broader and clear aspect of vision. Meanwhile, I do not claim anything as I am a big zero. But, what I felt from some things, I explained, that's all.
I have a request to you Sudarshangji, please kindly do not understand things from ego point. Once one crosses that level, this divine love blossoms, then only the picture will be clear regarding everything.
The forms are part of duality, not of the supreme brahman. Supreme Brahman is in the state of nonduality where all forms merge to become formless, absolute silence state.
Reading so many vedic books and theorotic books from reality helps none, but even a bout of experience by grace will have crystal clarity by leaps and bounds.
I have no doubt a person who has experienced, will not talk about only Hinduism or will never say My god is supreme or Sriman Narayana is only the right god or supreme brahman. As per scriptures, from the level of form ships of Gods, Narayana is considered more important, correct, but it does not in any way mean that other gods are lower.
This is where grace of experience helps one to imbibe that divine love which crosses beyond all regions or caste, creed and sector. Divinity is all about that. It is that unending love which encompasses everything.
Sir, If you still say that Sriman Narayana is supreme and Lord Shiva and Ambal are at lower level and has to wait at Sriman Narayana's gate for Moksha, what can I say?
May God give you clear clarity of vision to understand things better in its own perspective.
Regards
Narayanan
-
Sudarshang
Picture this! One God is holding its foot out - another is washing it, and the third is taking that water on its head! Now you decide who is who! and we say it is the holiest river on earth.
and you are saying, " If you still say that Sriman Narayana is supreme and Lord Shiva and Ambal are at lower level and has to wait at Sriman Narayana's gate for Moksha, what can I say? " and that too with a smiley as if you know it all, and yet pretending to be humble, " I do not claim anything as I am a big zero". I am sure you have gone to Thiruvengadam - everyday, everynight, they are all, all thirtythree crore of them stand in line to get His darshan (that is why they close the temple for two hours - that is the time Brahma performs his Thiruvaradanam to Thiruvengadamudaiyan)
and you say, "This is where grace of experience helps one to imbibe that divine love which crosses beyond all regions or caste, creed and sector. " ever thought about what is the source of the divine love? emptiness? Sir, Krishna has said everything very very clearly in BG (maam EKAM sharanam vraja), Vedas show the way clearly (Ekohavai naaraayaNa aaseet | Na brahma Na eesana: and agnaanyanyaa devataa:), Azhwars have sung his form and experience that divine love - not by considering Him equal to other devatas....but by remaining parama-ekanti - worshippers of none other than Sriman Narayana. Perhaps, empowered by computers, knowledge in science and technology, and the internet, you know more than Swami Ramanuja, Koorathazhwan, Swami Embaar, Parasara Bhattar ...and the long acharya lineage!
and you say, :The forms are part of duality, not of the supreme brahman. Supreme Brahman is in the state of nonduality where all forms merge to become formless, absolute silence state.". I would like to say, sir, Kanchi Vadaraja Perumal who used to talk to Thirukkachi Nambi clarified this very clearly with 6 phrases, the first among them was "Dharshanam Bheda Evacha" - these are not merely bookish knowledge, these are actual words from Perumal!
and then, the last verse of Vishnusuktam states, "Tadvishno: paramam padagm sadaa pashyanti sooraya:" ...so what are the soori's seeing 24X7X365? emptiness? blank space? Who are the sooris referred to here? Why is that called Vishno: Paramam Padam? isn't it because that is the final/ultimate destination to be reached?
Anyway, the bottomline is clear, He alone is the Creator, Operator and Destroyer of this Universe. His abode of Sri Vaikutham is the final destination of Jeevatmas. One fine day, one fine life - perhaps several lifes later, you and every Jeevatma has to come to this realization. You can run, but cannot escape this truth! Again, I am saying this in your and other readers' interest. The earlier you all realize, the better. This is the only good thing I have learnt in my life, and I am sharing it.!
and you are saying, " If you still say that Sriman Narayana is supreme and Lord Shiva and Ambal are at lower level and has to wait at Sriman Narayana's gate for Moksha, what can I say? " and that too with a smiley as if you know it all, and yet pretending to be humble, " I do not claim anything as I am a big zero". I am sure you have gone to Thiruvengadam - everyday, everynight, they are all, all thirtythree crore of them stand in line to get His darshan (that is why they close the temple for two hours - that is the time Brahma performs his Thiruvaradanam to Thiruvengadamudaiyan)
and you say, "This is where grace of experience helps one to imbibe that divine love which crosses beyond all regions or caste, creed and sector. " ever thought about what is the source of the divine love? emptiness? Sir, Krishna has said everything very very clearly in BG (maam EKAM sharanam vraja), Vedas show the way clearly (Ekohavai naaraayaNa aaseet | Na brahma Na eesana: and agnaanyanyaa devataa:), Azhwars have sung his form and experience that divine love - not by considering Him equal to other devatas....but by remaining parama-ekanti - worshippers of none other than Sriman Narayana. Perhaps, empowered by computers, knowledge in science and technology, and the internet, you know more than Swami Ramanuja, Koorathazhwan, Swami Embaar, Parasara Bhattar ...and the long acharya lineage!
and you say, :The forms are part of duality, not of the supreme brahman. Supreme Brahman is in the state of nonduality where all forms merge to become formless, absolute silence state.". I would like to say, sir, Kanchi Vadaraja Perumal who used to talk to Thirukkachi Nambi clarified this very clearly with 6 phrases, the first among them was "Dharshanam Bheda Evacha" - these are not merely bookish knowledge, these are actual words from Perumal!
and then, the last verse of Vishnusuktam states, "Tadvishno: paramam padagm sadaa pashyanti sooraya:" ...so what are the soori's seeing 24X7X365? emptiness? blank space? Who are the sooris referred to here? Why is that called Vishno: Paramam Padam? isn't it because that is the final/ultimate destination to be reached?
Anyway, the bottomline is clear, He alone is the Creator, Operator and Destroyer of this Universe. His abode of Sri Vaikutham is the final destination of Jeevatmas. One fine day, one fine life - perhaps several lifes later, you and every Jeevatma has to come to this realization. You can run, but cannot escape this truth! Again, I am saying this in your and other readers' interest. The earlier you all realize, the better. This is the only good thing I have learnt in my life, and I am sharing it.!
Last edited by Sudarshang on 17 Feb 2012, edited 1 time in total.
Good day Sudharshan Ji,
best regards,
I have a genuine question to ask you. You have waxed eloquent on the Virtues and the greatness of Sriman Narayana. You have quoted several texts to support your view. I just want to know, do these texts say why Sriman Narayan the supreme started this cosmic play ? Could it be that he created life so that we acknowledge his presence, realise his greatness and bow down to him and praise him? what is the reason for the creation of life ?We are living in a world which was created from a part of Sriman Narayana’s body. You and
I are all a part of His Body! He lives within each of us as Antaryami, observing each of our
statements and action. What is wrong in considering us traitors if we don’t even acknowledge
the source of our origin (let alone His Supremacy)! When our Atma belongs to HIM and is His
property, if we consider it our own, are we not stealing something that belongs to HIM? Still worse, if we say it belongs to somebody else, not only are we stealing, but aslo telling a lie that the stolen object belongs to somebody else!
best regards,
Through hard work and spiritual practices, a person gets honor and dignity. The lazy one who puts in no efforts is like a fool who allows salt to be spilled on the wounds of his misfortunes. The idler depending only on fate, achieves nothing. - K.N.Rao ji
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krishnagopal1968
- Frequent Contributor
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 11 Jan 2010
Dear AB,
Now you have fallen in a trap! As one page explanation will come as a reply
Let me share a story told by Ramana sri.
Once a minister practised a mantra and became an adept. King came to know about this and asked him to teach that mantra. Minister replied he can't as he is still not an authority and king later knew it from some other teacher.
But the king couldn't realise and asked the minister why is it that. Minister asked the guards to hold the king. it was not obeyed. minister again persisted, but no result. Then the king got wild and ordered the guards to hold the minister. Immediately the order was obeyed!!!
Then the minister laughed and said to the king, " see, why my order was not obeyed because there was no authority behind them". The same way even when one says the truth, if there is no authority behind it, it won't be obeyed
But yes, if it is one's prarabhda to teach, then it is allowed.(not by me!)
Now it seems me too have fallen in trap!! but i will get up soon!!
Now you have fallen in a trap! As one page explanation will come as a reply
Let me share a story told by Ramana sri.
Once a minister practised a mantra and became an adept. King came to know about this and asked him to teach that mantra. Minister replied he can't as he is still not an authority and king later knew it from some other teacher.
But the king couldn't realise and asked the minister why is it that. Minister asked the guards to hold the king. it was not obeyed. minister again persisted, but no result. Then the king got wild and ordered the guards to hold the minister. Immediately the order was obeyed!!!
Then the minister laughed and said to the king, " see, why my order was not obeyed because there was no authority behind them". The same way even when one says the truth, if there is no authority behind it, it won't be obeyed
But yes, if it is one's prarabhda to teach, then it is allowed.(not by me!)
Now it seems me too have fallen in trap!! but i will get up soon!!
-
Sudarshang
KG1968, you are slightly off the mark ...it turned out to be two pages I will soon be posting a response to AB's question. Profound questions do need profound answers. It takes time to write valid responses to "genuine questions" - and AB does sound sincere in his request, so I should be sincere in my response.
I will soon be posting a response to AB's question. Profound questions do need profound answers. It takes time to write valid responses to "genuine questions" - and AB does sound sincere in his request, so I should be sincere in my response.-
Sudarshang
AB
Your question appears genuine and I will try to answer it to the best of what I know. It is truly a "cosmic play" as you have yourself stated! Playfulness, indeed is one of the reasons for Creation, Compassion is the other. More details shortly.
Your question appears genuine and I will try to answer it to the best of what I know. It is truly a "cosmic play" as you have yourself stated! Playfulness, indeed is one of the reasons for Creation, Compassion is the other. More details shortly.
-
Sudarshang
Sri:
Srimathe Raamaanujaaya Namaha
Jeeyar Thiruvadigale charanam
Dear Astroboy
as promised, I have tried to answer your genuine question to the best of my ability and knowledge.
Firstly a clarification. You said, "Could it be that he created life so that we acknowledge his presence, realize his greatness, and bow down to him and praise him?" The answer is, no, definitely not! That is what we do out of our will when you know who He is - it is not an expectation from his side. In fact, when we bow in front of him, our poorvacharya's say that He feels heavily burdened by thinking "How am I going to repay him for the respect he shows me."
There are two reasons for "Creation." First is compassion and the second is playfulness.
Before even time came into existence, during what we call as "maha-pralaya" even space and matter did not exist. At that time only one existed. (Ekameva Agra Aaseet). It is known by several names - atma, paramatma, Brahmam, naaraayaNa, etc.
Three tattvas (concepts?) exist in eternity - Chit (The Sentient), Achit (The Insentient) and Eeshwara (The Brahman). All three existed at that time as one - with the chit and achit forming the Brahman's body. (Asesha Chidachit vastu seshine, seshashaayine, nirmalaananta kalyaana nidhaye vishnave namaha - Opening line of swami Raamaanuja's vedartha sangraha). The relation between the Brahaman and chit and achit tattvas is expressed as Seshi and Sesham. (like the relationship between the body and its parts like hand, feet, head, eyes etc).
The Sentient are those that are capable of knowledge. The Insentient are incapable of knowledge. Seeing that condition - the "knowledge capable Chit" lying beside the "knowledge incapable Achit" as if nothing differentiated them, the Lord out of His compassion for the Chit, wanted to give it a chance to refine itself in order to cross over to Nitya Vibhuti where it can live without losing its differentiation. Please remember that at all times, the Jeevatma, which is the chit, always has an individual identity and a collective identity. The ultimate purpose of the Jeevatma therefore is the leave this ever-changing Leela vibhuti which is characterized by alternating sukha (happiness) and dukha (unhappiness) or short-lived happiness, to the Nitya Vibhuti which is characterized by endless happiness. (Please read my other thread titled "Happiness").
what are Nitya Vibhuti and Leela Vibhuti?
They are two realms of existence. Sriman Narayana is often referred to as Ubhaya Vibhuti Nathan - or the owner of two realms of existence. The two realms are Nitya Vibhuti (permanent or unchanging realm of existence) and the Leela Vibhuti (The playground or the changing realm of existence). This implies that the Lord has something we call as "leela rasam" or "playfulness". Like a child that builds sand castles at the beach, He builds the Leela Vibhuti. Like a child that destroys that castle when going home, He destroys the Leela Vibhuti when the time comes. This is beautifully captured by Kambar in Kamba Ramayana's opening shloka -
"ulagam yaavaiyum thaam ulavaakkalum,
nilaiperuththalum, neekkalum neengala
alagilaa vilaiyaatudaiyaar, avar thalaivar
annavarkke sharann naangale".
- meaning, The one who creates, operates, and destroys this world for his playfullness, He is the Leader, I bow to Him"
Whatever happens at Leela Vibhuti, it is business as usual at Nitya Vibhuti.
That brings us to the second reason for creation (of Leela Vibhuti) - His playfullness. Therefore, He has desgined this world as a huge "game" of "treasure hunt." "Knowledge" is that treasure we have hunt for - Knowledge about "Who is Brahman? Who are we? What do we have alternating sukha and dukha? what could we do to enjoy endless sukha?" It is imperative that once you have the knowledge you are going to act on it to achieve that "ultimate purpose" stated above.
The Vedas is the body of knowledge He has given us to search for clues to acquire that knowledge. However, as often with the game of treasure hunt, the clues are very cryptic.
Why are the clues cryptic? Why can't they be straight forward? Because the value of the treasure you are unearthing is that great! With the help of that knowledge, once you reach Nitya Vibhuti, you would enjoy endless happiness (Please read my other thread on "happiness") - Happiness that is permanent and does not alternate with unhappiness! Since my happiness is mine and yours is yours, each has to make his/her own effort to reach the Nitya Vibhuti.
Srimathe Raamaanujaaya Namaha
Jeeyar Thiruvadigale charanam
Dear Astroboy
as promised, I have tried to answer your genuine question to the best of my ability and knowledge.
Firstly a clarification. You said, "Could it be that he created life so that we acknowledge his presence, realize his greatness, and bow down to him and praise him?" The answer is, no, definitely not! That is what we do out of our will when you know who He is - it is not an expectation from his side. In fact, when we bow in front of him, our poorvacharya's say that He feels heavily burdened by thinking "How am I going to repay him for the respect he shows me."
There are two reasons for "Creation." First is compassion and the second is playfulness.
Before even time came into existence, during what we call as "maha-pralaya" even space and matter did not exist. At that time only one existed. (Ekameva Agra Aaseet). It is known by several names - atma, paramatma, Brahmam, naaraayaNa, etc.
Three tattvas (concepts?) exist in eternity - Chit (The Sentient), Achit (The Insentient) and Eeshwara (The Brahman). All three existed at that time as one - with the chit and achit forming the Brahman's body. (Asesha Chidachit vastu seshine, seshashaayine, nirmalaananta kalyaana nidhaye vishnave namaha - Opening line of swami Raamaanuja's vedartha sangraha). The relation between the Brahaman and chit and achit tattvas is expressed as Seshi and Sesham. (like the relationship between the body and its parts like hand, feet, head, eyes etc).
The Sentient are those that are capable of knowledge. The Insentient are incapable of knowledge. Seeing that condition - the "knowledge capable Chit" lying beside the "knowledge incapable Achit" as if nothing differentiated them, the Lord out of His compassion for the Chit, wanted to give it a chance to refine itself in order to cross over to Nitya Vibhuti where it can live without losing its differentiation. Please remember that at all times, the Jeevatma, which is the chit, always has an individual identity and a collective identity. The ultimate purpose of the Jeevatma therefore is the leave this ever-changing Leela vibhuti which is characterized by alternating sukha (happiness) and dukha (unhappiness) or short-lived happiness, to the Nitya Vibhuti which is characterized by endless happiness. (Please read my other thread titled "Happiness").
what are Nitya Vibhuti and Leela Vibhuti?
They are two realms of existence. Sriman Narayana is often referred to as Ubhaya Vibhuti Nathan - or the owner of two realms of existence. The two realms are Nitya Vibhuti (permanent or unchanging realm of existence) and the Leela Vibhuti (The playground or the changing realm of existence). This implies that the Lord has something we call as "leela rasam" or "playfulness". Like a child that builds sand castles at the beach, He builds the Leela Vibhuti. Like a child that destroys that castle when going home, He destroys the Leela Vibhuti when the time comes. This is beautifully captured by Kambar in Kamba Ramayana's opening shloka -
"ulagam yaavaiyum thaam ulavaakkalum,
nilaiperuththalum, neekkalum neengala
alagilaa vilaiyaatudaiyaar, avar thalaivar
annavarkke sharann naangale".
- meaning, The one who creates, operates, and destroys this world for his playfullness, He is the Leader, I bow to Him"
Whatever happens at Leela Vibhuti, it is business as usual at Nitya Vibhuti.
That brings us to the second reason for creation (of Leela Vibhuti) - His playfullness. Therefore, He has desgined this world as a huge "game" of "treasure hunt." "Knowledge" is that treasure we have hunt for - Knowledge about "Who is Brahman? Who are we? What do we have alternating sukha and dukha? what could we do to enjoy endless sukha?" It is imperative that once you have the knowledge you are going to act on it to achieve that "ultimate purpose" stated above.
The Vedas is the body of knowledge He has given us to search for clues to acquire that knowledge. However, as often with the game of treasure hunt, the clues are very cryptic.
Why are the clues cryptic? Why can't they be straight forward? Because the value of the treasure you are unearthing is that great! With the help of that knowledge, once you reach Nitya Vibhuti, you would enjoy endless happiness (Please read my other thread on "happiness") - Happiness that is permanent and does not alternate with unhappiness! Since my happiness is mine and yours is yours, each has to make his/her own effort to reach the Nitya Vibhuti.
-
Sudarshang
As a result of the imperfect, mishra-sattva guna mixed with higher levels of rajas and tamas, people living in Leela Vibhuti started interpreting the vedas incorrectly. Sattva guna drives yatavastita gyana (understand the true meaning) while rajas and tamo gunas drive anyatha (distorted) and viparita (completely wrong) gyana (meaning).And since the clues were already cryptic enough, this mislead people in different directions - that is why we have so many religions, so many Gods being worshipped, so many different schools of thoughts based on the same source of knowledge - the Vedas. Doesn't this happen in a game of treasure hunt? One clue, 10 teams, each one going in a different direction? The idea of this game however is not to find just one winner - He wants everybody to be a winner. He is not misleading us - he has given us the
right kind of knowledge in the Vedas - but it is we, because of our limitations, that are interpreting them wrongly!
The lead time is long - really long - you can continue the search all life, and across life-spans. You can even come back in next life and start your search from where you left! Take your own time, but eventually everybody has to get there. The treasure hunt could even span a pralaya-kala when the whole entire Leela Vibhuti is destroyed and recreated. With the same Karma baggage as you left before Pralaya, you come back and resume life on Leela Vibhuti. However long it takes, Nitya Vibhuti is the final destination to reach- that does not change. that is the truth. That is why I keep repeating, one fine day, one fine life, you have to realize this truth - you can run now, but cannot escape! The fundamental reason why people are not able to see that as the target is the level of rajo and tamo gunas in them.
Because this search spans multiple life-cycles, He has put some ground rules in place for the world to operate. Karma is one such business rule. Other rules are also enshrined in the vedas.
I hope I have answered your question.
right kind of knowledge in the Vedas - but it is we, because of our limitations, that are interpreting them wrongly!
The lead time is long - really long - you can continue the search all life, and across life-spans. You can even come back in next life and start your search from where you left! Take your own time, but eventually everybody has to get there. The treasure hunt could even span a pralaya-kala when the whole entire Leela Vibhuti is destroyed and recreated. With the same Karma baggage as you left before Pralaya, you come back and resume life on Leela Vibhuti. However long it takes, Nitya Vibhuti is the final destination to reach- that does not change. that is the truth. That is why I keep repeating, one fine day, one fine life, you have to realize this truth - you can run now, but cannot escape! The fundamental reason why people are not able to see that as the target is the level of rajo and tamo gunas in them.
Because this search spans multiple life-cycles, He has put some ground rules in place for the world to operate. Karma is one such business rule. Other rules are also enshrined in the vedas.
I hope I have answered your question.
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astrohajare
- Contributor
- Posts: 110
- Joined: 29 Dec 2011
I dont know when this debate started but very sure this debate will not end till the end of this world & there will be millions of explanations without conclusion.Everybody will claim he/she is right.Elders told me there is god I accepted that is the bootom line.
Best wishes for continuation of this debate
Best wishes for continuation of this debate
KGji:
"Now you have fallen in a trap! As one page explanation will come as a reply"
I simply could not stop laughing... do not know what to say...
Astrojahareji:
"I dont know when this debate started but very sure this debate will not end till the end of this world & there will be millions of explanations without conclusion."
Until time one able to finds the god within, nobody can understand anything and that is why it remains as a debate to say "I am Supreme, you are supreme, he is lower than me, you are more strengthier. I am powerful etc..." . These are all talks of ego, not of truth.
"millions of explanations without conclusion"
It cannot be concluded simply because it in and of itself is infinite. Even vedas cannot describe that infinite thing. It tried to describe as many as much, but even it failed beyond a point.
That is exactly the reason why Dakshinamoorthi in form of Parmaeshwara did not teach anybody, but simply kept utmost silent because only in deep silence, the truth is revealed. So, no debates as well.
If you see Ramana Maharishi, Ramana Maharishi also gave others silent-mode teaching. Those who are able to pick up, will understand. Those do not, will not understand. But, there was absolutely no debates.
Even the teaching and the teacher remains inconclusive...when that is the case, is it possible to teach?
We are trying to understand and trying to describe everything from mind and buddhi according to our mind and buddhi behaves and acts, but these two also fail beyond a level to comprehend and we are trying to describe many things from Vedas as well according to our buddhi and mind comprehends. Even the point of source is unclear, but u will know u are not a person as you were previous..that's all.
I do not know to tell beyond this.
If one has to say, one has to say from the source from which even Vedas originated, then only things will be clear. Even when we try to originate things from Vedas, one needs to go to that place and then see the Vedas.
The most important fact is all the outer gods of all religions does not have any fights with them. In fact, they respect highly each other, it is we who create all kinds of disturbances in their name, that makes the picture very clear....
Whatever we see are here mere mayas of ego. When that ego is bursted completely, only the truth remains.
"When comes to describing this world, who created this world and why this world is created"
There is absolutely no answer for it as Vedas describes it as "Whether the creator knows it or not, who knows"? I did not say this, one portion of Vedas says so. There are no answers for some questions. It is better that we do remain as an unknown person in its own existence.
Regards
Narayanan
"Now you have fallen in a trap! As one page explanation will come as a reply"
I simply could not stop laughing... do not know what to say...
Astrojahareji:
"I dont know when this debate started but very sure this debate will not end till the end of this world & there will be millions of explanations without conclusion."
Until time one able to finds the god within, nobody can understand anything and that is why it remains as a debate to say "I am Supreme, you are supreme, he is lower than me, you are more strengthier. I am powerful etc..."
. These are all talks of ego, not of truth."millions of explanations without conclusion"
It cannot be concluded simply because it in and of itself is infinite. Even vedas cannot describe that infinite thing. It tried to describe as many as much, but even it failed beyond a point.
That is exactly the reason why Dakshinamoorthi in form of Parmaeshwara did not teach anybody, but simply kept utmost silent because only in deep silence, the truth is revealed. So, no debates as well.
If you see Ramana Maharishi, Ramana Maharishi also gave others silent-mode teaching. Those who are able to pick up, will understand. Those do not, will not understand. But, there was absolutely no debates.
Even the teaching and the teacher remains inconclusive...when that is the case, is it possible to teach?
We are trying to understand and trying to describe everything from mind and buddhi according to our mind and buddhi behaves and acts, but these two also fail beyond a level to comprehend and we are trying to describe many things from Vedas as well according to our buddhi and mind comprehends. Even the point of source is unclear, but u will know u are not a person as you were previous..that's all.
I do not know to tell beyond this.
If one has to say, one has to say from the source from which even Vedas originated, then only things will be clear. Even when we try to originate things from Vedas, one needs to go to that place and then see the Vedas.
The most important fact is all the outer gods of all religions does not have any fights with them. In fact, they respect highly each other, it is we who create all kinds of disturbances in their name, that makes the picture very clear....
Whatever we see are here mere mayas of ego. When that ego is bursted completely, only the truth remains.
"When comes to describing this world, who created this world and why this world is created"
There is absolutely no answer for it as Vedas describes it as "Whether the creator knows it or not, who knows"? I did not say this, one portion of Vedas says so. There are no answers for some questions. It is better that we do remain as an unknown person in its own existence.
Regards
Narayanan
Last edited by Narayan on 17 Feb 2012, edited 5 times in total.
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krishnagopal1968
- Frequent Contributor
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 11 Jan 2010
Narayan ji,
Sudarshang has studied more. agreed.
But if it doesnot penetrate the daily life, that it is of no good. There is no test other than everyday life!!
However this is a good sign, if he is sincere, one day he will be frustrated with all this, and then the real search starts. And if he is not, no worries, but by sharing his study, some other sincere person may pick up and grow.
The mystics view is, even if one is aggressive or fanatic but sticks to one path steadfastly, will reach. The path is not important but one's sincerity.
Sudarshang has studied more. agreed.
But if it doesnot penetrate the daily life, that it is of no good. There is no test other than everyday life!!
However this is a good sign, if he is sincere, one day he will be frustrated with all this, and then the real search starts. And if he is not, no worries, but by sharing his study, some other sincere person may pick up and grow.
The mystics view is, even if one is aggressive or fanatic but sticks to one path steadfastly, will reach. The path is not important but one's sincerity.
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Sudarshang
KG1968, firstly, thanks for your kind words.
You said, "But if it doesnot penetrate the daily life, that it is of no good. There is no test other than everyday life!!" -
There is definitely an elaborate practical aspect that is very much rooted in the vedic tradition. After all this is what we call as karma yoga. I will explore that in the next few posts. it not merely penetrates daily life, it penetrates every minute of existence!
You said, "But if it doesnot penetrate the daily life, that it is of no good. There is no test other than everyday life!!" -
There is definitely an elaborate practical aspect that is very much rooted in the vedic tradition. After all this is what we call as karma yoga. I will explore that in the next few posts. it not merely penetrates daily life, it penetrates every minute of existence!
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astrohajare
- Contributor
- Posts: 110
- Joined: 29 Dec 2011
[quote="Sudarshang"]KG1968, firstly, thanks for your kind words.
You said, "But if it doesnot penetrate the daily life, that it is of no good. There is no test other than everyday life!!" -
There is definitely an elaborate practical aspect that is very much rooted in the vedic tradition. After all this is what we call as karma yoga. I will explore that in the next few posts. it not merely penetrates daily life, it penetrates every minute of existence![/quote]
We are talking about gyan yog or karm yog. There are two ways to explain either to convince or confuse. I am confused.
You said, "But if it doesnot penetrate the daily life, that it is of no good. There is no test other than everyday life!!" -
There is definitely an elaborate practical aspect that is very much rooted in the vedic tradition. After all this is what we call as karma yoga. I will explore that in the next few posts. it not merely penetrates daily life, it penetrates every minute of existence![/quote]
We are talking about gyan yog or karm yog. There are two ways to explain either to convince or confuse. I am confused.
