Some Ways to Make Analyzing of Charts Simpler

[Khoo Hock Leong]

Hi Learned Members

Let's face it. One has to streamline our astrological knowledge when reading charts. We cannot be too detailed in incoporating too many astrological principles even in theory they may be correct.

In combination, sometimes it is better to choose those principles which are both practical and potent.

The following guidelines I am much influenced by Alison Bodhani (http://www.somadhara.com), Michael Laughrin's disciple :

(1) Use Rahu and Ketu both exalted in Scoprio. Predictions usually bear this out. For example, Rahu in Taurus usually give extracting of "poisons" from the Earth which is something antithetical to the picture that we have of Mother Earth. Ketu in Taurus shows inability to accept things as they are or to provide nurture to the things around us. That is the person is very difficult to live with.

Alison was taught by Naendra Desai that exaltation and debilitation come in pairs. Since Moon is exalted in Taurus and debilitated in Scorpio, it is only natural that the Moon nodes is debilitated in Taurus and exalted in Scorpio. This shows why some forum members feel that their Rahu in Taurus did not give them the benefits that they want in their chart.

(2) Retrogade planets are STRONG. No need to take aspects from the retrogade planet's previous position. Thus if a planet rules good houses, retrogade planets provide greater benefits from its position (the natal placement, no need for taking previous position etc.). If a planet rules bad houses, retrogade planets becomes more evil. Notice the differentiation between natural malefics and natural benefics are ignore for retrogading when we take the simplified position.

(3) There are 8 good houses, 1 minor bad house and 3 bad houses. No need to distinguish between functional malefics and functional benefics as detailed by Parasara. Frequently this kind of categorisation works good enough most of the time. Close to 100%.

(4) Remember not all deblitated planets are equally bad. It depends on the Ascendant.

Example would be Mars in Cancer on the 11th for a Virgo Ascendant is bad since Mars is at the same ruling 3rd and 8th Bhavas - bad houses; and being debilitated in a non-Dusthana does not confer Raja Yoga as well.

But Moon in Scorpio on the 11th for a Capricorn Ascendant is good as Moon rules the 7th and 7th is the 9th of the 11th, so there is still some semblance of wealth obtained. Moreover, Mars, ruler of Scorpio, is an enemy of Saturn, ruler of the Capricorn Ascendant together with the Moon. So the Moon is saved even if its neecha is not broken (bhanga). On top of that Mars is exalted in Capricorn, so Mars can easily override the Ascendant sign if he needs to.

(5) 7th aspect works because there is always a mutual connection between houses in an axis pair. Thus even if I am correct in earlier post that Mars, Jupiter and Saturn do not cast a full 7th aspect, it always end up the aspect is strong because of the axis pair of houses.

(6) Any planets conjuncting the axis of Rahu-Ketu is usually afflicted, even if the planet is in its own sign together with one of the nodes. In the latter case when the planet is in its own sign, this gives the planet strength and the node would magnify this strength if the node is together with the planet. But the node still eclipse the planet.

(7) Yogas must be given importance. This overrides any other considerations unless the Yoga definition specifically says so like it cannot take place for a dark Moon, cannot occur in bad houses etc. Otherwise take the full literal interpretation of the Yoga (this is not the same issue as the tweaking the definition of the Yoga to cover more situations - that is a separate issue).

As a result all planets which are a direct participant of the Yoga should be evaluated based on the Yoga definition. Even Saturn when it becomes a direct participant of the Yoga even if it is normally considered a spoiler of Yogas and the houses it aspects or the houses it is placed in other situations.

(8) Bright Moon is given first importance. Then only Waxing Moon.

(9) Moon+Mars becomes very good if it rules good houses.

(10) The dasa and bhukti you are borned with, the planets, take on special significance.

(11) Kala Sarpa Yoga have two kinds : one with planets going towards Rahu and one with planets going towards Ketu. The former exhibit Rahu characteristics and the latter Ketu characteristics. However, both of these general dictum can be overriden depending on the kind of planets conjuncting the node, the planet ruling the sign the node sits in and the planet ruling the nakshatra the node sits in.

For example, all planets may be going towards Rahu. But then Rahu is in Cancer in Pushya and the Moon and Saturn are together sitting with Ketu. This shows that there is Ketu influence over at the serpent's head as well, which can even be strong enough to eradicate Rahu influnece.

Any planet conjuncting either node would diminish the Kala Sarpa Yoga power but the yoga influence is still there.

(12) Nature of the Nakshatras and Drekkanas the planets are in play heavily in the delineation process.

(13) Combustion only occurs if the said planet and the Sun are in the same Navamsa. All planets get combusted regardless of who it is.

(14) Planetary war exists if the said planets are less than 1 degree to one another (not based on whether they are in the same Nakshatra as followed by Nadi Astrology). There is no winner in planetary war. BOTH planets take a beating so the houses they rule suffer.

(15) Sthira Karaks of planets are given very much less importance. Functional rulership are given high importance.

The above really works......but if you are the kind that is a stickler to details, nothing is stoping you from delving depper into the analysis of charts.

Best Regards
Hock Leong

[GNE]

Very interesting and some excellent points there. I'd like to learn more about #10, since it could also help birth time rectification...if the dasha-bhukti(bhukti mostly) changes between minutes...

Rahu/ketu exalted in scorpio is something I always felt was true even when I first read about them years ago. Neat to hear there are other astrologers that are saying it's official. My rahu is in scorpio in Navamsa.

The only point I disagree with, is #14. ...I explained my thoughts in my thread asking about planetary war on this forum (In the "special rules" section). And rathore and myself spoke about how we think not just longitude but latitue must be within 1 degree for there to be a true war...

Main reason I disagree with the war concept is that I just haven't seen it work at all with many charts. And charts where people have used the "War" to explain things, I can easily explain the same issues the native suffers with through use of other basic concepts in the chart (simple things like negative house lord/enemy planet conjunctions, etc.)

I have a planetary war in my chart and feel zero effect in regards to all houses the planet owns or sits in.
But my latitude is 6 degrees apart, even though longitude is within 1 degree.

UNLESS you mean that there is a war when planets are within the same degree... like hitler's chart. (both planets on same degree, only minutes separate them)...then I cannot say "no" to that, since I have not tested that enough and to me it makes sense that could be much more negative.

[Khoo Hock Leong]

Actually according to BPHS and Vic di Cara explicitly states this, that he uses planetary declination for planetary wars. I believe declination incorporates both the latitidue and longtitude to come up with the declination angle from the celestial equator.

When planets become very close to the point when they are in the same degree and only a matter of minutes separate them in both latitude and longtitude, I believe the declination condition of less than 1 degree is automatically satisfied (whether both planets are in the north or both in the south or one north one south from the celestial equator). Thus if Jupiter is 5 degees south of the celestial equator and Saturn is 4.5 degrees north of the celestial equator, the condition of planetary war is automatically satisfied.

You can get the planetary declination from the planetary ephemeris.

[Khoo Hock Leong]

Anyway what this means is that offhand you cannot tell whether both planets are in planetary war from a chart or from a table of the planets' latitude or longtitude positions.

You must get it separately from the Ephemeris.

[Khoo Hock Leong]

See whether the said planets in your chart are in a planetary war based on the declination condition.

If they still are.......then see any special condition involving the 2 planets exist. Example : according to BPHS Venus always wn the war (if one of your said planets involve in the war is Venus). If Venus is in the Nakshatra ruled by the other planet, then effectivly the planetary war is neutralised. Something like that.

[Khoo Hock Leong]

In the above example which I give of Jupiter and Saturn, Jupiter is supposed to win the war because it is at a higher declination. But using Alison principle, BOTH planets are weakened.

As for your pair of planets which GNE you claim are in planetary war, please reply to my last post and we can further assess and discuss if need be unless what I have stated has hit the nail on the head.

[hiimnotcool]

regarding number 3, which 8 houses are good, 1 minor, and 3 bad?

i'm assuming 8, 6, 12 are bad and 3 is minor?

[Khoo Hock Leong]

Yes, your assumption is correct.

[GNE]

Hey, sorry I went to bed
Back now and you did hit it on the head...I checked now and my planets declinations are wide apart.
says venus was at 8.4-something, and mercury was at 2.01...


Though I still feel that a "war" is truly only negative if the planets are enemies, or one (or both) are malefic house lords for the ascendant.
example a "War" between Mercury+venus would be much more damaging for Pisces or Cancer lagna, than for Gemini or Virgo...etc.
Though I'd have to go re-check all the other charts and celebrities who had "wars" that seemed unaffective (ex: look at jake gyllanhaal's chart online...his jupiter is in a war and apparently "loosing" so says Jhora, yet he's in jupiter dasha and been thriving more than ever in his career since it started, plus his third house seems unaffected(where war is)...)
But like I said, perhaps the declinations are farther than 1-2 degrees...


Then there's the question of: What if both planets are retrograde.... (my situation).

And that nakshatra concept wouldn't apply to me (winning planet especially if Venus in nakshatra of the other planet), my planets are in Saturns nakshatra.
Though they are in different Navamsa...

But anyway, declination seemed to make sense, as like I said my planets on that date (using ephemeris) were widely spaced that way.

Thanks!


edit: found this which makes it seem like it's not a war if latitude is over 1 degree away aswell as longitude
http://www.planetarypositions.com/yoga/ ... grah-yudh/
which would mean my planets aren't at 'war' thus, explaining my lack of feeling any negative effect with the "loosing" planets houses / nor the tenth house they are placed it.
(my mer/ven are 6 degrees different in latitude)

[Khoo Hock Leong]

If both planets are retrogade and they sit together in the same house, that house would be doubly strong.

You see the rason why Alison takes a retrogade planet to be strong is that the planet is SLOWER THAN NORMAL SEED FORWARD GOING BACKWARDS. This means it has influence on the 2nd house where it is placed as well as on the 12th house where it is placed (ie. why in this forum we take it that the planet also aspects from the previous house). This in turn then makes the house where the retrogade planet is placed strong. With another retrogade planet in the same house, that house then becomes exceptionally strong.

[GNE]

Thanks for the reply again Khoo,

My mer/ven has caused many disagreements among astrologers who have read my chart (that I've met),
whereas one would say retrograde is causing more problems, cancelling yogas, exalted acts like debilitated,etc.(which I'm on the "I don't believe it" side, when it comes to that "retro exalt = deb" belief) ,

then I've had astrologers gush over it and sing praises about how lucky I am to have these planets retrograde where they are, strengthening their yogas(though delayed "after 32" they told me...), and helping the house, like you said.



You mention the aspect on the previous house, this is another concept sadly not all astrologers can agree on.
I have no true opinion as haven't studied that enough, nor can I say I feel or don't feel their aspect on my 9th(previous house). I'm no authority to cast a "vote" if you will, in regards this retrograde aspect concept.
But I truly do wish it's correct!

Assuming it is,
would you count a retrograde 12th aspect on a house the same way you count other regular aspects?
What I mean is, like say for things like Indu Lagna... some texts say planets aspecting it raise the financial status of the native...
my indu lagna Is my 9th, with moon. If mer/ven in my 10th retrograde aspect 12th, should I count that as 2 more aspects on indu lagna?
(otherwise it gets no other aspect other than ketu...)*
*unless we are supposed to count Rasi aspect instead.


Thank you for all the replies and explanations

[Khoo Hock Leong]

Also note (also for readers' info) :

Normally we do not take the previous house for a retrogade planet's aspect if the planet has already started retrogading in the anterior sign from the one it is placed. Example if in a chart Saturn is retrogading in Cancer but it actually started retrogading when it was in Leo, then we do not consider aspect from Gemini as well. In such a case using Allison's assumption that a retrogade planet is strong may give the wrong assumption. But these cases are not that many.

Remember Alison's technique NEVER consider aspect from the previous sign whatever the case may be. In the previous paragraph I explained about aspect from the previous sign just to show the validity of Alison's assumption (that a retrogade planet is strong) most of the time.

[Khoo Hock Leong]

GNE

Yes it would with regards to the question on the aspect of Indu Lagna by your retrogade mercury/venus. Although not placed with Indu Lagna the aspect is there.

Not placed there but aspecting from there means any aspect by the retrogade planet whether from the previous bhava or from the bhava where it is placed, continue to have the flavour of the bhava where the retrogade planet is actually placed.

[GNE]

Thanks for the reply again,
it makes sense now that the planet doesn't aspect "As if" it's 12th from it, but instead just aspects the 12th from it in a way.
so for example: a retrograde saturn in 6th would 'aspect' 5th, but not 7/11/2nd.

Retrograde aspecting 12th from themselves also makes for some very interesting Kartari 'scissor' yogas (when a retro is 2nd from the house involved of course).


Now to another topic in this thread:
"(10) The dasa and bhukti you are borned with, the planets, take on special significance. "

May I ask for some elaboration or an example rather on this point...significance in what manner exactly?

Thanks again,
Sorry if asking too much.

[Khoo Hock Leong]

No you got it wong.

A retrogade saturn in the 6th aspects

5th, 7th, 2nd and 11th from 5th but since it is not placed in the 5th, the aspect it gives has a 6th house flavour because it is placed in the 6th. Get it?

Also from the 6th it aspects 8th, 12th and 3rd and this one obviously has a 6th house flavour.

[Khoo Hock Leong]

Like I was borned in a Mars dasa Jupiter bhukti.

Jupiter rules 6th and 9th and Mars rules 5th and 10th for a Cancer Ascendant.

I am a slave to precision and the truth and that is why astrological science is suitable for me (the bhukti). I am not much interested in fame or to show off my intelligence (the dasa) but just so that it is required to fulfill my bhukti inclination.

This characteristic governs my whole life.

[GNE]

Ohh, so the planets do aspect fully from the 12th ? I see. I thought you were saying they only aspect 12th from them, thanks for setting that straight.
I get what you're saying about the '6th house flavour', sort of works similar to bhava chalit charts...when a planet appears in a different house there, but is still placed in the house it is in the rasi.

So then my retrograde ven/mercury in 10, would also aspect the 3rd? (from 9)
I am and have always been involved in media/drama/art, so lagna lord aspecting 3rd in this case would help make even more sense of that.

would you count new yogas (ones formed by mutual aspects) by retrograde aspects ?

Thanks for the example using birth dasha/bhukti.
I will try to rectify my time a bit more using that. No matter what I was born in Rahu Dasa, but the bhukti changes depending on a few minutes.



edit: just a thought, retrograde saturn aspecting so many houses... that would mean it's delaying and generally negative(for most ascendant...) effect would be hitting almost all areas of a persons life?
what about celebrity charts of those who did succeed early but have retrograde saturn? especially when malefic?

and retrograde jupiter, aspecting so much...does it turn malefic when retrograde? or.... ?
(I have two friends with retrograde jupiter, one is cancer lagna the other is leo lagna, and both aren't really 'blessed' in many areas of life at all...)

just trying to understand how it works,
not doubting what you said (just had to clarify, in case it came across that way here).

Thanks again!

[dendenpatel]

Om Namah Shivay ,
Guruji .

I am also feel that rahu in Scorpio is exalated.

my rahu in Scorpio in 10 th house .
At time of venus rahu period , unexpected huge gain in career. career wise this is the top period in my life.

warm regards.

[Khoo Hock Leong]

Yes, your Mercury and Venus would aspect the 3rd from the 9th BUT they are counted as having a 10thth house placement still notwithstanding. The 9th just serve as a reference point for aspecting (for our own human understanding), that's what I am saying. It does not mean that your Mercury/Venus carries the connotation of being placed in the 9th ie. having 9th house placement characteristics. It would always have 10th house characteristics only because it is only placed there.

The Bhava Chalit and Rasi Chart concept, their basis for being different has nothing to do with 12th from the planet's placement at all. The planet is deemed to be BOTH placed in the Rasi sign and the Bhava concerned. They are separate demarcations.

But in Bhava Chalit the aspect is based on Bhava but in the Rasi Chart the aspect is based on the Rasi sign. Nevertheless dispositorship is always by sign whether Bhava Chalit or Rasi Chart.

Also aspects used in Bhava Chalit are Nadi ones like trines are very powerful using Nadi aspects because they represent planets grouping under the same element which denote outcomes and Bhava Chalit by using demarcation based on bhavas to consider Nadi Aspects is representing a process.

[Bhava Chalit (process) + Nadi Aspect (outcome) + dispositorship (chain of command)]

Rasi Chart is the other way round. Aspects are based on Parasara using the Rasi Sign and the Rasi Chart is also demarcated based on Rasi Sign. The chart represents outcomes and the aspect by Parasara represents process just like 8th aspect of Mars is destroying which is process of destroying and does not stand for the ultimate destruction state of a bhava unlike Nadi Aspects. But because of the demarcation of bhava based on Rasi, what works out by the 8th house Mars aspect is then interpreted as outcome.

[Rasi Chart (outcome) + Parasara Aspect (process) + dispositorship (chain of command)]

Yes I do count Yogas made by retrogade planets aspecting from its previous position BUT the yoga must be interpreted in the light to see whether it exist, because retrogade planets since they are not placed in the previous bhava but only aspecting from the previous bhava (as what I explain about your Mercury/Venus) means there is NO MUTUAL ASPECTS AT ALL. Therefore if the Yoga's definition implicitly requires mutal aspects for it to exist, then the Yoga is deemed not to exist. But seldom do Yogas' defintions require mutal aspects as a condition. More often than not it is based on placement and dispositorship.

To be continued..............

[Khoo Hock Leong]

Yes, that is true about your question on retrogade Saturn. That is why before I read Bharvatha Ratnakara, my first impression of a retrogade Saturn hitting so many areas of the chart, I deem it as a misery (remember I pointed that out to you in an earlier post?). But then after reading Bharvatha Ratnakara, they say retrogade natural malefics turn good and malefic sign on kendra is a Raja Yoga etc. (which means a double triumph for a Maha Purusha Yoga for a natural malefic), then the picture becomes a little bit rosier.

Retrogade Juupiter, a natural benefic, is STRONG according to Alison. (Bharvatha Ratnakara is silent on natural benefics turning retrogade). So the benefits also increase.

So it looks like whether natural benefics or natural malefics, both are good, when they turn retrogade (but Alison consider retrogade natural malefic as bad if they are functional malefics or not particpating in a Yoga especially Saturn.......but then she may not have read Bharvartha Ratnakara). Still I think even if Saturn turns good, say, there is generally dealying of the goodness to appear, that is my opinion. Which is why Alison consider it bad anyway unless Saturn participates in a Yoga (like Lakshmi Yoga for Bill Gates) or Saturn at least must rule good houses (her definition of good houses) for the maleficity to tone down (not sure whether she know Saturn is good in 3rd and 9th either, or Saturn casts good aspects whenever it is aspecting the 3rd or 9th - this one I think is from BPHS and Bharvartha Ratnakara).

Still Alison's general rule of thumb covers most general cases for it work close to 100% successfully. But if what you say about your firneds' cases is truereason is that when a natural benefic retrogades, it turns inwards, so its natural radiance of helping other planets is somewhat decreased, ie. it becomes less beneficial. I think it may be like that.

OR you have to look at the dispositor of the dispositor of your friends' Jupiter (which has nothing to do with them being retrogade). Assuming their Jupiters are placed in good houses, frequently, which I have not written as a new post yet, if you consider dispositor of a dispositor (whether by Nakshatra or Sign or a mixture of both which results in 4 permutations), the dispositorship chain can sometime go through :

(1) Dusthana - Dusthana

(2) Dusthana - Good House

(3) Good House - Dusthana

(4) Good House - Good House

So assuming your friends' Jupiter are placed in good houses (we already know they are trinal lords), then under :

(1) All their good houses (placement and rulership) are destroyed

(2) The good houses are destroyed then rejuvenated

(3) The good houses are stabilized and then destroyed

(4) The good houses remain good throughout.

4 more combinations similar to the above but mixing Nakshatra and sign dispositorships.

If your friends' Jupiter are placed in Dusthanas, then under :

(1) All their average results (placement bad but rulership good) are destroyed.

(2) The average results are destroyed then rejuvenated.

(3) The average houses are stabilized and then destroyed.

(4) The average houses remain average throughout.

Again 4 more combinations of the immediate preceding (1) to (4) but mixing Nakshatra and sign dispositorships.

So the above serves like a kind of Neech Bhanga or Uccha Bhanga as the case may be, but one involving Bhavas (not signs, if we want to consider signs that will further add further complexity to the picture).

The LESSON IS, dispositorship up to the 2nd link, ALWAYS COME INTO THE PICTURE, whether you are talking about combustion, planetary war or analysing Yoga quality etc.or just simple Bhava Analysis if there is no combustion, planetary war, Yoga etc. Thank goodness retrogade does not consider placement in the previous Bhava, only aspect, otherwise we have a separate dispositorship chain to consider and that make everything doubly complex to what we have discussed on this issue up to now.

So check your firends' Jupiter. Do they satisfy some of the conditions above which make their Jupiter less effective (including the fact of being placed in not such a good house)? I would like to know......so that I can decide whether a retrogade natural benefic is better (according to Alison ie. why your friends'Jupiter is bad is because of a separate issue of placement or the dispositorship chain) or worse (according to my logic that it turns inwards ie. their placement and dispositorship chain is fine and so the reason of their fate being worse could be none other reason than the fact that Jupiter, a natural benefic, is retrogade). Bharvartha Ratnakara is silent on retrogade natural benefics. (My conjecture has a basis which is from one of the formulae used to calculate the Bala of the planet where they assign strength to natural benefics based on them being able to radiate goodness).

[GNE]

wow, great write-up, thank you. I was happy to wake to see this.

I understand now about what is going on with my mer/ven in regards to the 9th house aspect, but having 10th house characteristics only.

And thanks for the bit about the Bhava Chalit and nadi aspects, that was new to me.

Yogas by retrograde planets needing mutual aspect makes sense, yes.
I also have Retrograde saturn in 6th (for gemini lagna), mars in aries in 11th, and so when saturn aspects from 5th onto mars, it's also still getting mars 8th house aspect as it was previously, right? Would this be a considered a mutual aspect then? 9-11 dhan yoga (and 6-8 aspect of course...)

My friends jupiters - both who have it retrograde, have jupiter in own sign.
I figure it's easier for you to take a glance at this one in particular who has it retrograde but isn't doing very well in life yet is almost 40 years old. His biggest blessing is that he has a marriage and kids (got married earlier at 22-23 years old, and had one child before that, then 2 more right after) his kids/wife and himself all get along great.
but he lacks money, house (had to move back into his mothers), often looses many friends/businesses, is struggling in career and health is only so-so (nothing major bad, but he's often tired or with a common cold..)
he also would just say he doesn't feel blessed, he often complains about life,etc... not very "optimistic" jupiter qualities.

You don't need to get into a chart of course, but I figure it's easier for you to have a look yourself to see exactly whats going on. If I explain his placements, I will likely forget to mention something. A nakshatra / etc.

Nov. 4 1975
8:10pm
toronto, ontario (canada)

Gemini lagna like myself.


My other friend has similar blessings...wife and a son, but same issue...lack in career, also his father left him when he was 3 years old and never to be seen again. his mother is poor. He has to work way too much in order to keep a living (Long hours and often 6-7 days per week) and he has the health issue of crohn's disease (of the bowels) and has flair ups/suffers stomach pains often.
well, may aswell send this too:
29, august, 1984
2:07 pm
Toronto, Ontario, (Canada)

scorpio lagna.


Again, you don't need to see this as "homework", no need to read the charts much , but I just think it'll get more information across in regards to the Jupiter retrograde, if you had a look at the whole chart instead of me writing out all the placements.


And when it comes to saturn retrograde, my first thought was shahrukh khan who has it.
But if his birth time is correct, it's in Sash yoga in the 7th...

and myself with it retrograde...now I have many things delayed in life (no romance / kids / or steady job for a while...though that was my own choice to stay and work on my hobby instead...long story).
but most of my life is very smooth, especially regarding finances. Lots of unearned wealth and savings from birth and never being in debt..

both friends I posted above are about 10 or more grand in debt....
mostly due to buying houses of their own though..but still.


Hopefully you come to some revelations regarding retrograde benefics.

Thanks again!

[Khoo Hock Leong]

One of the equations, the symbol typed should be "+" instead of "=". Corrected it.

No, because Saturn is not placed in the 5th, it does NOT get Mars 8th aspect. But Saturn gives Mars the 7th aspect as the retrogade theory agreed in this forum (or according to K N Rao) is that planet do aspect from the previous house. So this is still a Dhana Yoga (9th-11th combination) but it is LESS POTENT because the aspect is one-way. That is what I meant.......if the Yoga definition does not require the aspect to be two-way......you can still treat it that the Yoga still exists.....but the aspect is one-way....and therefore less potent.

Your first friend :

He has the blessings laid out for him as Jupiter is ruling good houses and in its own sign. So are its dispositors (whether second link, by nakshatra or by sign). They are placed in good houses.

The complaints is because the planets are not well placed by signs and the 5th house, although a good house is in a mess.

By nakshatra 1st link, Jupiter is disposited by Mercury (although 2nd link dispositor give final outcome, 1st link dispositor usually can be very potent, the immediate influence).

And just look at Mercury. Eaten up by Rahu (notwithstanding Mercury is Rahu's boss because the nodes ultimately are under no one, they can run amok as soon as they have the power) and combusted by the Sun (the Budhi Yoga does not spare the frazzling of the nerves of Mercury by the Sun). In turn Mercury is disposited Venus which is in its fall.

The mutual exchange between Mercury and Venus technically should be very good because Mercury and Venus are great friends, both rule good houses and the exchange involves 4th and 5th. BUT given the state that Mercury and Venus are in, it does not give any good, and therefore it also does not offer a Neecha Bhanga to Venus either.

Mercury is in Chitra and disposited by Mars in Gemini. Mars in the 1st is execellent as an executor (your friend has set up a family etc.) but then again Mars is in a bad sign. Mars in Mercury signs always pull out the stops and checks and there is a limit to the person as an executor.

In this case Jupiter retrogade has nothing to do with the bad situation your friend is in but rather because of its dispositor and dispositor of the dispositor, by sign and/or Nakshatra.

So here it does not prove whether natural benefics retrogade is good or bad. The dispositorship point crop up as is usually the case for all charts.

To be continued.................

[Khoo Hock Leong]

Your second friend has FIVE natural malefics in kendra (including Mercury because Mercury is with Sun). Although Mars and Sun are in their own signs, which means they denote happiness, yet it does not and I will tell you the reason why later.

Jupiter is in its own sign but by Nakshatra it is disposited by Ketu.

Ketu and Mars are both in Anuradha which is disposited by Mercury. Mercury and Sun are both in Ardra.

There is an exchange between Mercury and Ketu giving him much stamina. BUT.......Mars and Sun are standing by in the same sign and Nakshatra tenated by Ketu and Mercury respectively and Ketu and Mercury are having the exchange. So they become powerless because they are not the chief players in the drama, notwithstanding Mars and Sun are in their own signs.

Combination of Sun+Mars give rise in life. And in this chart, they being in their own sign and in kendras, are supposed to give happiness. All these does not happen because they are powerless bystanders in the exchange between Mercury and Ketu which denotes binding responsibilities.

Jupiter trining the Sun+Mercury from the 2nd shows he would work till a ripe old age.

Saturn in Libra in 12th means his career energy ebbs and flows like the 12th and is not making aspect to ANY PLANET (Saturn ruling the 3rd is supposed to give strength), so its energy is fully stuck in the 12th, and does nothing to shore-up the weak Mars and Sun for career matters.

Again does this show anything about Jupiter retrogade being better or not? Not it does not.

But I tell you that Alison has a point that retrogade planets are stronger and therefore natural benefics retrogade should be better if they are well placed by signs and ruling good houses. This is because they also aspect from the previous sign so casting their nets wider afield. Because of this reason, retrogade planets are stronger, and whether they are better or worse, depend on their functional rulership (Alsison stress on functional rulership as the same for the members in this forum). Natural benefics and natural malefics do not figure much in the retrogading phenomenon but we can see natural benefics retrogading ruling good houses should be more beneficial as well (the same for natural malefics retrogading if they rule good houses too).

Best Regards
Hock Leong

[Khoo Hock Leong]

So what I am trying to say is that my point about retrogade planets turning inwards is more than offset by they aspecting from the previous sign as well. Also no need to split hairs over this either because we are concerned mostly with functional rulership (natural signification we use for special queries or break ties for rare occurrences). Also since the planet is not placed in previous sign but only aspect from previous sign, it is good enough just to consider where the retrogade planet is placed as being strong.

[GNE]

Great analysis, thanks,
shame it couldn't help solve the retrograde benefic result question.
But I am happy to hear your final belief is like Alison's wherein retrograde planets are stronger, therefore benefics(functional) should be better. (I'm happy as then that means my mer+ven aren't acting as malefics now due to being retrograde...) My situaiton would be different if say, I had Pisces lagna where mercury/venus(especially) aren't too benefic.

What you wrote about the two friends charts was great, and helps make sense of their situation. Since at a quick glance, it looked to me like their charts weren't matching up with their relatively average / struggle-filled lives so far.
The second chart person is a security guard at a prison. ..So it's fitting of saturn in libra in 12th career energy I feel.

First chart is currently unemployed and has just worked sort of from job to job through his life....mostly business related / at a bank at one point...and tried to become a lawyer but gave up/didn't like it enough. He lives mostly off parents money , as well as his wife who is a Dentist.


but anyway,
as for the saturn-mars aspect I mentioned,
you said " because Saturn is not placed in the 5th, it does NOT get Mars 8th aspect. "
did you mean the 7th aspect?
saturn is placed in 6th, which gets mars 8th aspect from 11th. ?
and retrograde saturn makes it so saturn casts a 7th aspect back at mars, I assume.


Final retrograde aspect question that came to mind is,
whats the opinion on Rashi aspects?
would for example Retrograde Venus in pisces also send rashi aspect from aquarius (onto cancer/aries/libra) ?

Thanks for everything