This is called "smarta" or obsession with the details and rules of "smriti." The karma marga of the smriti sastra has so many oddball rules and regulations it will make you dizzy. This is a rather lame and handicapped path compared to jnana / wisdom or especially compared to bhakti / devotion - which oblitterates all rules.
The general principle is that you cannot steal spiritual treasure. A mantra is a spiritual treasure. If you try to take it forcefully it will shut itself off to you. You should receive it humbly and with gratitude - as is the case when received from a guru. That is why it is important to get mantras from gurus.
Also in a practical sense, a mantra is a very very dense codification of sound. You need a guru to instruct you on how to decode the sound to connect with the true mantra beneath the mundane sound vibration it reflects. If you just grab a mantra without any instruction about how to chant it - its like trying to take pills without opening the bottle.
Mantras can ONLY be given by guru?
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Vic DiCara
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Your servant,
Vic DiCara / वà¥à¤°à¤œ किशोर दास
~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~
Vic DiCara / वà¥à¤°à¤œ किशोर दास
~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~
Actually mantras like Gayatri are given by the one day guru who does the upanayanam ceremony to the brahmin. Then whether he continues with the japa or not is left to him. So if one cannot get a guru, then he may have to learn each from a different person, that would not matter. But chanting by himself would not be right if he makes mistakes. However slokas can be recited by all and those well versed in sanskrit can do it themselves without need of a guru but for those with pronunciation problems, it would be better that they listen to sloka regularly instead of themselves chanting or alternatively, they can learn from a one time guru(who of course can help them for a few days) and then chant them.
In fact other form of pariharas are also done based on the advise given by say some astrologers. Then they become like a guru. Or sometimes they do based on the information from the internet or books and they work.
Only because slokas when pronounced wrongly will not give the desired effects, the help of a guru is a must.
Dev
In fact other form of pariharas are also done based on the advise given by say some astrologers. Then they become like a guru. Or sometimes they do based on the information from the internet or books and they work.
Only because slokas when pronounced wrongly will not give the desired effects, the help of a guru is a must.
Dev
dear vic
when u say "This is called "smarta" or obsession with the details and rules of "smriti." The karma marga of the smriti sastra has so many oddball rules and regulations it will make you dizzy. This is a rather lame and handicapped path compared to jnana / wisdom or especially compared to bhakti / devotion - which oblitterates all rules." is it implied that in jnana or bhakti one doesn't require guru for initiation
in past facilities were limited, books were costlier and rare and no means of audio/ video reproduction of mantra by machine, in those times it was absolute neccassary to have guru to correct ur pronounciation and to teach u the fundamentals, uses, any complications related to that mantra.
but now in this age when one can hear a learned scholar on tape or watch his video chanting the mantra and can also get various books related to mantra easily and could study them and understand their easy language do u still think guru is utmost neccessity.
how about i read about mahamritunjay mantra, hear its chanting on video and than consider SHIVA to be my guru and start chanting of mantra myself will it be against wisdom or bhakti
aren't these rules r man made or were they given by god becoz as far as i have seen god listens to young child he listens to illeterate, god doen't want a broker/agent between u and him. and mantra is just a organised time tested and concised prayer to god so why i need someone to tell me to start the prayer to god isn't i am entitled to pray him as he has already given me all prequistes required to pray ( mind, vocal chords, body, patience and courage)
seriously i want to beleive that when it comes to god u donot need any formalities, rules, protocols, all u need is sincerity and devotion.
DR. Karanveer Shaktawat
when u say "This is called "smarta" or obsession with the details and rules of "smriti." The karma marga of the smriti sastra has so many oddball rules and regulations it will make you dizzy. This is a rather lame and handicapped path compared to jnana / wisdom or especially compared to bhakti / devotion - which oblitterates all rules." is it implied that in jnana or bhakti one doesn't require guru for initiation
in past facilities were limited, books were costlier and rare and no means of audio/ video reproduction of mantra by machine, in those times it was absolute neccassary to have guru to correct ur pronounciation and to teach u the fundamentals, uses, any complications related to that mantra.
but now in this age when one can hear a learned scholar on tape or watch his video chanting the mantra and can also get various books related to mantra easily and could study them and understand their easy language do u still think guru is utmost neccessity.
how about i read about mahamritunjay mantra, hear its chanting on video and than consider SHIVA to be my guru and start chanting of mantra myself will it be against wisdom or bhakti
aren't these rules r man made or were they given by god becoz as far as i have seen god listens to young child he listens to illeterate, god doen't want a broker/agent between u and him. and mantra is just a organised time tested and concised prayer to god so why i need someone to tell me to start the prayer to god isn't i am entitled to pray him as he has already given me all prequistes required to pray ( mind, vocal chords, body, patience and courage)
seriously i want to beleive that when it comes to god u donot need any formalities, rules, protocols, all u need is sincerity and devotion.
DR. Karanveer Shaktawat
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Vic DiCara
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Jnana also has many rules of strict nature, focusing on tyaga and tapasya.numbskull wrote:dear vic
when u say "This is called "smarta" or obsession with the details and rules of "smriti." The karma marga of the smriti sastra has so many oddball rules and regulations it will make you dizzy. This is a rather lame and handicapped path compared to jnana / wisdom or especially compared to bhakti / devotion - which oblitterates all rules." is it implied that in jnana or bhakti one doesn't require guru for initiation ?
Bhakti also has rules and guidelines, but they are not strict. It is the emotional content of bhakti which empowers it - not an empirically regulated thing.
nAmnAmakAri bahudhA nija sarva sakti
statrArpita niyamitaH smaraNe na kAlaH
yetAdRzI tava kRpA bhagavan mamApi
durdaivamI dRzam ihAjani nAnurAgaH
The primary saadhana of bhakti is Bhagavat-Kiirtan, Naama-sankirtana. Krsna places his fully potent self into his names (naamnaam-akaari bahuda nija sarva shakti).
To do sankirtana there are no rules, nor regulations, no proper or improper muhurtas, times, etc. It is all powerful. It nullifies all other conditions. (statrArpita niyamitaH smaraNe na kAlaH)
We, however, are so pitiful that we are interested in poojas, yajnas, gems, mantras, etc. everything in the world except nama-sankirtana as the true upaye (durdaivami drisham ihaajani naanuragah). Therefore we must call to Bhagavan for his mercy to correct this misfortune in our lives (yetaadrishi tava kripa bhagavan mamaapi).
The statement above that there are no rules or regulations for nama sankirtana, the central sadhana of bhakti-yoga indicates that there is no requirement of having a guru.
However, for all practical purposes we ALWAYS have gurus. Hari Nama does not have to be given by a brahmana in formal diksha. But for all practical purposes we always have functioning gurus giving SIKSHA, guidence and instruction on how to chant the name, the mantra.
Thus the progress of 9 stages of bhakti-yoga is that first there is conviction (sraddha), then there is sadhu-sanga (taking the guidance of the saints, gurus), and after this we can do the bhajan-kriya, we can actually practice the mantra effectively. Thus mantras containing the names of Svayam Bhagavan are the most all powerful mantras that exist. materialistic people, however are not attracted to them, because materialistic people are not truly interested in remedying the true cause of their suffering. They prefer something like mahamrityunjay or something else mani padmi hum or whatever to act like a bandaid on the boil of their ahankar leprosy. This one mantra in particular is reccomended as the supreme mantra for kali yuga in the kali santarana upanishad:
hare krishna, hare krishna
krishna krishna, hare hare
hare rama, hare rama
rama rama, hare hare
This mantra requires no formal guru (diksha-guru) but benefits of course from the practical guidance of a functioning guru (shiksha guru).
Your servant,
Vic DiCara / वà¥à¤°à¤œ किशोर दास
~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~
Vic DiCara / वà¥à¤°à¤œ किशोर दास
~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~
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Vic DiCara
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Yes, now you can obtain guidance of guru without direct personal interaction with the guru. That is nice and good. However it does not solve the humility problem, which I identified in my first post. Besides pronunciation and such things, the mantra does not disclose its true form to the person who does not receive it with humility but takes it with arrogance. Therefore all vedic mantras must be gifted to you by a guru who himself or herself is also in guru parampara. There is no way around this. The only exception is a mantra composed of the all-powerful names of Svayam Bhagavan. These names are not subject to ANY rules. However the practitioner is subject to faults, therefore it is still wise to receive these names from Sri Guru. Such a guru is a bhakta. That is the only qualification to give hari-nam.in past facilities were limited, books were costlier and rare and no means of audio/ video reproduction of mantra by machine, in those times it was absolute neccassary to have guru to correct ur pronounciation and to teach u the fundamentals, uses, any complications related to that mantra.
but now in this age when one can hear a learned scholar on tape or watch his video chanting the mantra and can also get various books related to mantra easily and could study them and understand their easy language do u still think guru is utmost neccessity.
I can consider Einstein my guru if I want. That doesn't make me his student. If hair is falling out, the eyes are dark, the complexion pale, and the body gaunt, you know there is something like cancer in the body. Similarly if a person is trying every which way NOT to accept a guru you know there is a problem in their heart related to lack of faith and lack of humility. This problem will stand in the way of spiritual progress until they address and conquer it.how about i read about mahamritunjay mantra, hear its chanting on video and than consider SHIVA to be my guru and start chanting of mantra myself will it be against wisdom or bhakti
The Vedas are the gift of Svayam Bhagavan Sri Krsna, which emanate directly from the breath of Sri Vishnu and are enunciated in tangible form through Sriman Brahma Ji and his children and disciples. There are also many man-made rules which are interpolated into religious tradition and pollute it. Periodically Vishnu incarnates to deal with this.aren't these rules r man made or were they given by god
"Paritranaaya saadhunam, vinaashaya ca duskritam, dharma samsthapanarthayam, sambhavami yuge yuge."
The rule of having a Guru to get a mantra is a valid rule. However it does not apply to Sri Hari-Nam. Further more in Kali Yuga, only Sri Hari Nam is effective.
There are cheaters who advertise themselves as gurus. Similarly there may be spoiled fruit in a basket, but we discard the spoiled fruit, not the entire basket.becoz as far as i have seen god listens to young child he listens to illeterate, god doen't want a broker/agent between u and him. and mantra is just a organised time tested and concised prayer to god so why i need someone to tell me to start the prayer to god isn't i am entitled to pray him as he has already given me all prequistes required to pray ( mind, vocal chords, body, patience and courage)
A real guru does not "stand in the way" of your relationship with god. For example, the internet stands between you, Dr. Karnaveer, and I. However is it getting in the way, or is it facilitating our connection? Sri Guru, Sad Guru, is like that.
Your servant,
Vic DiCara / वà¥à¤°à¤œ किशोर दास
~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~
Vic DiCara / वà¥à¤°à¤œ किशोर दास
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Vic DiCara
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Then read Bhagavad Gita.seriously i want to beleive that when it comes to god u donot need any formalities, rules, protocols, all u need is sincerity and devotion.
DR. Karanveer Shaktawat
Patram pushpam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati
tad aham bhakty-upahrtam asnami pryatatmanah
Get the Gita of a real bhakta and read that, it will fill you with joy and direct you. I reccomend Bhagavad Gita As It Is by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
Your servant,
Vic DiCara / वà¥à¤°à¤œ किशोर दास
~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~
Vic DiCara / वà¥à¤°à¤œ किशोर दास
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dear Vic
thanks a lot for ur patient and elaborative reply.
i did brought bhagwat gita sometime back but haven't read it yet i hope soon i will do that .
the real reason, i asked u all this was that some times when dealing with some chronically ill patient or some patient with serious limb injury who's on verge of loosing his/her limb, i strongly had this urge to advise him to start chanting mahamritunjay mantra or any other healing mantra which might help him and make my medicine or surgery procedure more effective , now u see i can't ask him to have guru an proper diksha (its already quite awkard to ask patient as it makes me look inconfident) while he is struggling hospital all he can do is clean his face and chant while lying down on hospital bed.
on taking name of bhagwan i think most of patient in this condition are already doing that plus their family members keep on visiting temples and organize pujas they may be effective but its like an emperical treatment while as per sages mahamritunjay is specific for healing so wouldn't it be more logical for patient to use it along with emperical treatment of bhagwaan names.
lets assume i do ask patient to do mahamritunjay now as per vedic knowlegde what would happen ?
a) mantra aids in patients recovery
b) no effect of mantra
c) harmfull effect of chanting mantra without having receiving it from guru
if its b) then atleast it will have placebo effect but if its c) than could u elaborate what could go bad will it effect his mental or physical body or both , could it also lead to deteriotation of already existing alliment?
Dr Karanveer
thanks a lot for ur patient and elaborative reply.
i did brought bhagwat gita sometime back but haven't read it yet i hope soon i will do that .
the real reason, i asked u all this was that some times when dealing with some chronically ill patient or some patient with serious limb injury who's on verge of loosing his/her limb, i strongly had this urge to advise him to start chanting mahamritunjay mantra or any other healing mantra which might help him and make my medicine or surgery procedure more effective , now u see i can't ask him to have guru an proper diksha (its already quite awkard to ask patient as it makes me look inconfident) while he is struggling hospital all he can do is clean his face and chant while lying down on hospital bed.
on taking name of bhagwan i think most of patient in this condition are already doing that plus their family members keep on visiting temples and organize pujas they may be effective but its like an emperical treatment while as per sages mahamritunjay is specific for healing so wouldn't it be more logical for patient to use it along with emperical treatment of bhagwaan names.
lets assume i do ask patient to do mahamritunjay now as per vedic knowlegde what would happen ?
a) mantra aids in patients recovery
b) no effect of mantra
c) harmfull effect of chanting mantra without having receiving it from guru
if its b) then atleast it will have placebo effect but if its c) than could u elaborate what could go bad will it effect his mental or physical body or both , could it also lead to deteriotation of already existing alliment?
Dr Karanveer
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Vic DiCara
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What would happen is whatever is destined to happen. Mantras are minimally effective in Kali Yuga.
Also death is not something that one must avoid.
Also death is not something that one must avoid.
Your servant,
Vic DiCara / वà¥à¤°à¤œ किशोर दास
~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~
Vic DiCara / वà¥à¤°à¤œ किशोर दास
~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~
Dear Vic Dicara:
What would happen is whatever is destined to happen. Mantras are minimally effective in Kali Yuga.
Also death is not something that one must avoid.
I may have to disagree with your statements above.
Namajapa is the simplest thing one can do and it is said big yaga and ygaya are not needed and simple namajapa is sufficient in kaliyug to even to reach God, that can only mean even these simple japas(for eg Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare) could burn off one's karmas.
Death cannot be avoided by anyone. Whether they like it or nor, whether they accept it or not, they have to be only a silent spectator. It is not only for fate but also for the happening. If one meets with an accident, may be he is destined to, but can he fight destiny, could he have avoided the accident, no because it was predecided.
Dev
What would happen is whatever is destined to happen. Mantras are minimally effective in Kali Yuga.
Also death is not something that one must avoid.
I may have to disagree with your statements above.
Namajapa is the simplest thing one can do and it is said big yaga and ygaya are not needed and simple namajapa is sufficient in kaliyug to even to reach God, that can only mean even these simple japas(for eg Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare) could burn off one's karmas.
Death cannot be avoided by anyone. Whether they like it or nor, whether they accept it or not, they have to be only a silent spectator. It is not only for fate but also for the happening. If one meets with an accident, may be he is destined to, but can he fight destiny, could he have avoided the accident, no because it was predecided.
Dev
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Vic DiCara
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Namajapa is the harinam... I just spend 3 posts telling you how nama japa is the exception to the rule and the only fully effective mantra in harinam. Please listen more closely.
Death is not something that you should encourage people to fear. If they wish to live they should wish to live because they wish to continue helping others. Please try to understand.
Death is not something that you should encourage people to fear. If they wish to live they should wish to live because they wish to continue helping others. Please try to understand.
Your servant,
Vic DiCara / वà¥à¤°à¤œ किशोर दास
~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~
Vic DiCara / वà¥à¤°à¤œ किशोर दास
~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~ ~・~
Yes Harinam is the exception to the rule, that is what I was telling.
I dont think anyone fears death, it is only that they did not have experience in it, they did not die once to see how it looks. Also, when in severe health or mental problem, they would rather welcome that, but other than that, I think, people in general do their work and dont fear death. They just cannot overcome that, they know.
Dev
I dont think anyone fears death, it is only that they did not have experience in it, they did not die once to see how it looks. Also, when in severe health or mental problem, they would rather welcome that, but other than that, I think, people in general do their work and dont fear death. They just cannot overcome that, they know.
Dev
