Spirituality, Astrology, Destiny, B. Geeta, Celibacy

[Basab]

Sudarshang,

You repeated what we said, which means you agree with me and Abhijit. See, it's not you, but everyone here who believes that what he knows is good for humanity and thinks that what has worked for him will work for everybody. We all want to be preachers. That is an instinct we all have: to preach. I also feel that what I believe is the only truth, and it will work for everyone well. See we all have the lord's assurance that what we think is right, and if my thinking is contradictory to you, I will think you are wrong because the Lord has assured me too that what I think is right, so how can you be right at the same time, having a different opinion from me? I also say the same thing, I will write what I believe in, and I have been doing that for the last few years. No one could change me, and I didn't think the necessity to change because Lord has told me that I am right.

Sincerely, I believe what I know is good for humanity, and know very well that what has worked for me works for everybody. I participate in forums to share what I know - for the betterment and benefit of those that dont know, and are eager to learn. (if you are not interested in learning, you are free not to read my posts/react to it...let only those that are interested read...even if there is one reader that is interested, I am willing to post. If there is none let me know, I will leave the forum). I am open to listening to others - but I dont see myself changing...the reason is simple: I have the Lord's assurance - then why should I bother.

[Talib]

BTW, for your and others that are interested in knowing only: I dont follow Bhakthi Marg....nor Karma Yoga, not Gnana Yoga. All three yield results only when the baggage of Karma is exhausted. A baggage created over so many millions of lifes will take millions more to exhaust... Therefore I chose another path that is valid, tested, and easier.

Sudarshang Ji,

i was continously thinking on this from a long time speacially abt exhaustation of karma's which i always feel that it is almost impossible to exhaust karma's specially when we have this short life span, and memory loss in next birth, fruit of good karma's may b use as to earn bad karma's in following birth, i always thought karma is like a pendulum which never stops. Anyway's, one day i happen to read book by "srila bhaktivinoda thakura" in which he explained these three type of sadhana : karma , jnana and bhakti and he explained which marg is the most suitable in present era. your write up is quite similar to the books i have read recently..but when in one of ur post u have mentioned the chain of sadhana viz: karma jnana and then bhakti , i got puzzled..and now there is "another path"..sir, i like reading ur post and i m always keen to learn, though i dont have an intellectual mind. please share wt u have tested and is easier.

Love

[Sudarshang]

Sudarshang,

You repeated what we said, which means you agree with me and Abhijit. See, it's not you, but everyone here who believes that what he knows is good for humanity and thinks that what has worked for him will work for everybody. We all want to be preachers. That is an instinct we all have: to preach. I also feel that what I believe is the only truth, and it will work for everyone well. See we all have the lord's assurance that what we think is right, and if my thinking is contradictory to you, I will think you are wrong because the Lord has assured me too that what I think is right, so how can you be right at the same time, having a different opinion from me? I also say the same thing, I will write what I believe in, and I have been doing that for the last few years. No one could change me, and I didn't think the necessity to change because Lord has told me that I am right.

Sincerely, I believe what I know is good for humanity, and know very well that what has worked for me works for everybody. I participate in forums to share what I know - for the betterment and benefit of those that dont know, and are eager to learn. (if you are not interested in learning, you are free not to read my posts/react to it...let only those that are interested read...even if there is one reader that is interested, I am willing to post. If there is none let me know, I will leave the forum). I am open to listening to others - but I dont see myself changing...the reason is simple: I have the Lord's assurance - then why should I bother.

Basab

When the Lord is the one that is interested in granting Moksha to all Jeevatma - When He is the one making the effort for Jeevatma to attain Moksha, evidently, He created many paths - depending on the type of person you are you could choose what you want. Ultimately the defining criteria for granting Moksha is the same - You should have exhausted all your Karma - Positive and Negative Karma - thats right, neither Punya should be there, not Paap should be there ...when you have exhausted all the Karma (following any path suitable to you), He is going to give Moksha.

[suniti]

Suniti-Ji

I respect you for your inquisitive mind, and eagerness to learn. You have asked the most intelligent questions thus far....You have stated that you wished it were as simple for you .....

In fact it is equally simple to for everbody. Out of the respect I have for you, let me assure you, life is simple, after-life is simple, and so is Moksha. We make things complicated. I too thought once upon a time (when I used to read Shankara etc.) that it was all complicated. No need. Everything is simple, very easy to understand and practice. It is even easy for lay persons that dont have the inquisitive mind as yours....why worry, there is way.

thank you for your kind words

but first let me tell you you whatever you have seen as intelligent in my question is all borrowed knowledge

i am a very good parrot and have no knowledge of my own

the only thing i do have,is a belief in oneness that i have from my own introspection and exactly why this journey cannot be simple for me is i believe in oneness and
the only the makes sense to me is existence

so in this journey, if there is a journey and if there is anything to attain( i say this statement not in blasphemy but with regards to those who believe in jivabrahmaikya) then i believe in grace.

the thing is i feel that this is all internal, this journey, theres nothing to teach anyone, its about seeing myself
anything else for me is an escape and i dont see a fixed path for anyone, i do indeed feel "truth is a pathless land"
i engage in dialogues to broaden my viewpoints and to see that ego of mine
when i defend something i want to see why im holding on to a concept and WHO is holding on to it

of course i make fun of things but i always have ultimate respect for seekers on ANY path and their sincerity

i know you will surely get your goal by your own will and the divine iccha of Sri Hari


respectfully
suniti

[Dev]

Hi Sudharshan:

The simple well known fact is that when the punya and papa get eleiminated, there is moksh. But we do not have a bank account to know of our balance and also God has a different way of dealing with different people. So if we have suffering, we have to do punya not because they will cancel the papas (since they can never cancel each other), since in future janmas, it will not be too much suffering. When papa is there, it is good to have punya along with so that when u suffer, there is someone for the support(unlike in kemadruma yoga).

Dev

[Sudarshang]

BTW, for your and others that are interested in knowing only: I dont follow Bhakthi Marg....nor Karma Yoga, not Gnana Yoga. All three yield results only when the baggage of Karma is exhausted. A baggage created over so many millions of lifes will take millions more to exhaust... Therefore I chose another path that is valid, tested, and easier.

Sudarshang Ji,

i was continously thinking on this from a long time speacially abt exhaustation of karma's which i always feel that it is almost impossible to exhaust karma's specially when we have this short life span, and memory loss in next birth, fruit of good karma's may b use as to earn bad karma's in following birth, i always thought karma is like a pendulum which never stops. Anyway's, one day i happen to read book by "srila bhaktivinoda thakura" in which he explained these three type of sadhana : karma , jnana and bhakti and he explained which marg is the most suitable in present era. your write up is quite similar to the books i have read recently..but when in one of ur post u have mentioned the chain of sadhana viz: karma jnana and then bhakti , i got puzzled..and now there is "another path"..sir, i like reading ur post and i m always keen to learn, though i dont have an intellectual mind. please share wt u have tested and is easier.

Love

Talib-ji

The tested and easier path is called "Sharanagati". I have said this before on this forum. How to make it happen, I can point you in the direction - but not in a public forum. If you are ready for it - ie you are convinced that Moksha is what you want to attain and that everything else in life, including knowledge, money, relationships, relatives, family etc are all futile, please contact me at sudarshang@[No Personal Contact Details on Public Forum].com....I will be willing to share whatever little I know.

[Basab]

Sudarshang,

See how you contradict yourself:

... and know very well that what has worked for me works for everybody.

He created many paths - depending on the type of person you are you could choose what you want.

[Sudarshang]

Hi Sudharshan:

The simple well known fact is that when the punya and papa get eleiminated, there is moksh. But we do not have a bank account to know of our balance and also God has a different way of dealing with different people. So if we have suffering, we have to do punya not because they will cancel the papas (since they can never cancel each other), since in future janmas, it will not be too much suffering. When papa is there, it is good to have punya along with so that when u suffer, there is someone for the support(unlike in kemadruma yoga).

Dev

Dev-ji

You are partly right. True: The simple well known fact is that when the punya and papa get eleiminated, there is moksh.
True: But we do not have a bank account to know of our balance
True: also God has a different way of dealing with different people - but with clarification: He is not partial. He makes the effort for our Moksha, provided we allow him to. If indeed we have allowed Him to, then based on where we stand at that point, he uses the shortest/best possible path.
True: They can never cancel each other (Punya and Paap)
Clarifications Needed: So if we have suffering, we have to do punya not because they will cancel the papas (since they can never cancel each other), since in future janmas, it will not be too much suffering. When papa is there, it is good to have punya along with so that when u suffer, there is someone for the support(unlike in kemadruma yoga).

Firstly, My path is not about "future janmas" - To borrow from a popular western song,, " I know what I want,and I want it NOW". I dont want to wait until future janmas. Secondly, as far as my understanding of Karma goes, if we are suffering, we are spending the negative karma from the baggage (negative karmas reduce when we suffer. conversely, positive karma reduces when we are happy). If you perform Punya, you acquire one more positive karma in your baggage. Thus your baggage keeps on growing in every life instead of diminishing. What can you do to diminish or reduce your karma insteading of growing it - positive or negative? Alternatively, I am asking you, how can you do thing, without acquiring Punya and Paap?

Here let me give you a hint - You don't get punya for performing you duty - On the other hand, if you fail to perform your duty, you get 'negative" karma.

[Sudarshang]

Sudarshang,

See how you contradict yourself:

... and know very well that what has worked for me works for everybody.

He created many paths - depending on the type of person you are you could choose what you want.

Pray, Tell me, What is contradictory about that?

[Basab]

You said what worked for you, works for everybody, which means the path that you are walking on is the path for everyone. And then you say that there are many paths as per the attitude of different people.

[Sudarshang]

Thank you, I did realize you were an advaiti. - and that is your present predicament as well....you still remain a staunch advaiti in your outlook.

[Dev]

Sudharshan:

Clarifications Needed: So if we have suffering, we have to do punya not because they will cancel the papas (since they can never cancel each other), since in future janmas, it will not be too much suffering. When papa is there, it is good to have punya along with so that when u suffer, there is someone for the support(unlike in kemadruma yoga).

What I meant was if we are suffering on one account in this janma severely, then may be the sins associated in that aspect is high and may continue in further janmas and so doing some punya would help as a cover meaning due to the punya, u may get some help from family and friends which is better than getting no help.

Firstly, My path is not about "future janmas" - Secondly, as far as my understanding of Karma goes, if we are suffering, we are spending the negative karma from the baggage (negative karmas reduce when we suffer. conversely, positive karma reduces when we are happy). If you perform Punya, you acquire one more positive karma in your baggage. Thus your baggage keeps on growing in every life instead of diminishing. What can you do to diminish or reduce your karma insteading of growing it - positive or negative? Alternatively, I am asking you, how can you do thing, without acquiring Punya and Paap?

See, it is same for u, me and others but can we be so greedy that we want no more births, I mean are we good enough for that. We need to be near ideal which most of us are not.
Yes, I agree with u, what I meant was if u have -50000 points and plus 25 points, to manage some of the minuses which is in excess, if u do punya and get some plusses, it may help u to tolerate the suffering.

You don't get punya for performing you duty - On the other hand, if you fail to perform your duty, you get 'negative" karma.
You are right.
Also nishkamya karma is there where u do without any expectation. It is easier said than done. Can we donate with absolutely no ego. See, even if we give something to our housemaid and she turns up late, most of us would say, I gave u so many things even when unasked but u are coming late, taking leave and so on.

Dev

[Sudarshang]

You said what worked for you, works for everybody, which means the path that you are walking on is the path for everyone. And then you say that there are many paths as per the attitude of different people.

"What worked for me works for everyone" - ie if you want to follow what worked for me. I did not say "the path I am walking on IS the path for everyone" - I only said, I works for everyone - - what is implied in that is - if you want to follow it. you are free to choose what you want. I am NOT Forcing anything on any one. I follow some thing, it worked for me. I will share it, if you are interested, you could follow it too. If you are not interested you could choose what you want. Lord did not want to leave aside those whom this path did not appeal to - therefore He created other paths. There is absolutely no contradiction--- it is an individual's choice.

[Basab]

Thank you for explaining in details. This line "What worked for me works for everyone" doesn't mean what you said as explanation for it: "ie if you want to follow what worked for me", but then, now that you have explained what it means, I have understood it. Thanks for taking the trouble to explain it.

I did not say "the path I am walking on IS the path for everyone" - I only said, I works for everyone - - what is implied in that is - if you want to follow it. you are free to choose what you want. I am NOT Forcing anything on any one. I follow some thing, it worked for me. I will share it, if you are interested, you could follow it too. If you are not interested you could choose what you want. Lord did not want to leave aside those whom this path did not appeal to - therefore He created other paths. There is absolutely no contradiction--- it is an individual's choice.

[Sudarshang]

Dev-ji

See, it is same for u, me and others but can we be so greedy that we want no more births, I mean are we good enough for that. We need to be near ideal which most of us are not.
Dev

Yes, we can be so greedy, and everybody in earth is equally good enough for that! No need to be near ideal...... Let me narrate two small stories:

Chintayanti: She was a gopi in the Krishna's Gokulam. Just married! She is in the house, one evening Krishna's venuganam started. She was quite eager to go an join the Raas with Krishna. But in the front porch of the house her in-laws were sitting. She could not come up with an excuse to join the Raas - afraid of what her in-laws would say. She suffered silently unable to join Krishna. On the other hand, she was happy atleast she was able to listen to His venuganam. Suffering, he spent her remaining negative karma. enjoying the music - she spent her remaining positive karma. Then and there, she ascended to Moksha.

Milkmaid in Srirangam: I will return shortly to narrate this story

[Dev]

Sudharshan:
Yes, we can be so greedy, and everybody in earth is equally good enough for that! No need to be near ideal...... Let me narrate two small stories:
I totally disagree with u on the above point. How can everyone be good enough? See I am not a saint but then u see we come across so many sinners. See murdering, raping, stealing all these are horrible acts and someone cheating with money and so on. Do u feel they can aspire for moksha. I dont think they have the minimum ethical rights to do that. Even we aspiring may be wrong unless we try to completely surrender to the Lord and apologise for each and every type of sin that we have committed.
We ourselves may have so many deficiencies, then what about the others who have done such crimes.

About the Krishna Gopi story, I agree, but u would say it is Pramatma jeevatma concepts and we are all also like Gopis but I would not accept that. Where is their faith and where is ours?

Her suffering of not being able to see Krishna is not at all that much of a suffering compared to one who is crying in pain say due to blood cancer or so.

Dev

[Sudarshang]

Devi-ji

Yes everybody is equal - His Divine grace is available to all - including to murderers and sinners -provided we are ready ...all it takes is a little realization and awareness...as you have said, even if a murderer performs that complete surrender - one instance out of some good mind - He is ever ready to accept....

It is a different thing that many, even so called intellectual giants refuse to accept...

[Dev]

Yes, Sudharshan, I agree somewhat with u but still I find how could a murderer who has done for greed or for sex crimes of the highest order, how could he realise so soon. If he has done unknowingly, then it is ok, he may then live with that guilt feeling and try to compensate to the fullest extent. See it is like if I harmed u in a small way I can compensate for that but when some grave sins are committed how can they be erased. Even if he repents, he does not deserve moksha.
For eg, see, one person cheated us with money, he told hundredthousand lies, made us run here and there, gave bounced checks, bluffed and then even threatened us, say since past 6 years, do u think he will plead to God and ask for moksha. The minimum morals atleast shd be there.
See for eg. even Gandhi had indicated in his autobiography that he had sinned in younger days. Kannadasan, the poet had also repented and wrote Arthamulla hindu madam. But these sins were not grave sins by any means.
See, for eg. if I have received more help than what I did, I can realise and try to correct it by helping others. If I am greedy after money, I can correct by doing some donations. If I am lazy, I can compensate by doing hard work. If I go late to office, I can work loner times. All these have compensations.
But what if I murder or cheat someone? After stooping to such low levels, noone will have guts to even ask God for surrender. Why did the thought of God not come to him when he was planning to murder? He may be praying to God more for the fear of the punishments he may get rather than for the other sould. He may be pleading just asking God to give him only minor or even no punishments at all.

Dev

[Sudarshang]

Sudharshan:
Yes, we can be so greedy, and everybody in earth is equally good enough for that! No need to be near ideal...... Let me narrate two small stories:
I totally disagree with u on the above point. How can everyone be good enough? See I am not a saint but then u see we come across so many sinners. See murdering, raping, stealing all these are horrible acts and someone cheating with money and so on. Do u feel they can aspire for moksha. I dont think they have the minimum ethical rights to do that. Even we aspiring may be wrong unless we try to completely surrender to the Lord and apologise for each and every type of sin that we have committed.
We ourselves may have so many deficiencies, then what about the others who have done such crimes.

About the Krishna Gopi story, I agree, but u would say it is Pramatma jeevatma concepts and we are all also like Gopis but I would not accept that. Where is their faith and where is ours?

Her suffering of not being able to see Krishna is not at all that much of a suffering compared to one who is crying in pain say due to blood cancer or so.

Dev

Dev-ji

Since you established a different context with this post, I will continue from here instead posting the second story that has now become irrelevant. I continue to state that everybody is good enough! yes, I agree with you that we see or "we come across so many sinners - murdering, raping, stealing all these are horrible acts and someone cheating with money and so on. Do u feel they can aspire for moksha?" yes, they can aspire for moksha too! But that means they have realized something that has changed them...like a Valmiki that used to be robber once ...they have turned a corner suddenly having realized something, like an Ajamil that by sheer coincidence uttered the Lord's name when death confronted him...

There is another way too -- this the most extreme and most unlikely - if we know and have commmited a sin against a devotee of the Lord, and that devotee of the Lord happens to have extraordinary grace and compassion for the sinner - like Swami Koorathazhwan managed obtaining Moksha for a sinner named Nalooran in the Chola King's court.

[Sudarshang]

Yes, Sudharshan, I agree somewhat with u but still I find how could a murderer who has done for greed or for sex crimes of the highest order, how could he realise so soon. If he has done unknowingly, then it is ok, he may then live with that guilt feeling and try to compensate to the fullest extent. See it is like if I harmed u in a small way I can compensate for that but when some grave sins are committed how can they be erased. Even if he repents, he does not deserve moksha.
For eg, see, one person cheated us with money, he told hundredthousand lies, made us run here and there, gave bounced checks, bluffed and then even threatened us, say since past 6 years, do u think he will plead to God and ask for moksha. The minimum morals atleast shd be there.
See for eg. even Gandhi had indicated in his autobiography that he had sinned in younger days. Kannadasan, the poet had also repented and wrote Arthamulla hindu madam. But these sins were not grave sins by any means.
See, for eg. if I have received more help than what I did, I can realise and try to correct it by helping others. If I am greedy after money, I can correct by doing some donations. If I am lazy, I can compensate by doing hard work. If I go late to office, I can work loner times. All these have compensations.
But what if I murder or cheat someone? After stooping to such low levels, noone will have guts to even ask God for surrender. Why did the thought of God not come to him when he was planning to murder? He may be praying to God more for the fear of the punishments he may get rather than for the other sould. He may be pleading just asking God to give him only minor or even no punishments at all.

Dev

To Surrender - there is no restrictions....anybody in any frame of mind can do it ...at any time . at any place....no restrictions what so ever. Only criteria they should know that they can surrender. That does not mean after surrendering they become extremely good and start compensating for their bad deeds ...just the one act of surrender is enough.

[Abhijit Muhurta !!!]

I am open to listening to others - but I dont see myself changing...the reason is simple: I have the Lord's assurance - then why should I bother?

Sir could you kindly narate how you got this assurance ?

[Dev]

Sudarshan:

Agreed that some of those turn out so-like Ajamilan, Valmiki but not all. Anyway, when a perfect person who leads like in most dharmic way cannot shed his ego, how can we expect total surrender from these? May be as u say, I feel very big shocks in life may help them. They should be so severe ie if they lose someone in the family closest to them or if they loose all their money and go to the streets. Sorry for sounding negative but having moved with them and seen their arrogance after having sinned, it appears to me that that is the only way out for them to surrender to God.

Dev

[Sudarshang]

Sudarshan:

Agreed that some of those turn out so-like Ajamilan, Valmiki but not all. Anyway, when a perfect person who leads like in most dharmic way cannot shed his ego, how can we expect total surrender from these? May be as u say, I feel very big shocks in life may help them. They should be so severe ie if they lose someone in the family closest to them or if they loose all their money and go to the streets. Sorry for sounding negative but having moved with them and seen their arrogance after having sinned, it appears to me that that is the only way out for them to surrender to God.

Dev

You never know how and when such turnaround happen - and you'd be surprised by the kind of people that turn up to do Sharanagati/Surrender

[Dev]

Yes may be, but then u are talking from ur experience. Please tell me ur method adopted which worked for u.

Dev

[suniti]

\

but you still remain a staunch advaiti in your outlook.

i don't feel myself a staunch advaitin but
you are right sir conditionings are there
i do hope to one day be free of all conditionings of mind and "i'

suniti