I want to break Free

[suniti]

dear astroboyji

Thats beautiful point if we are of the opinion that we are separate from God

even if we see it from that standpoint, with reference to what you said "the closer you are to the two the furthur you are away from god"
i dont feel that anyone can be closer than the other, the mother loves all her children equally, the ones who have married and left home, the ones in the house that serve her, even the ones who have hurt her and seem far away.

We can never be away from or closer from that compassion. at least i don't think so.

suniti

[DHV]

Dear Nidiji

I hope you dont mind if I butt in here and offer an alternate viewpoint to you and Astroboyjji. I may be wrong in my interpretation and understanding and if that is so then my apologies.

Infact I would go one step ahead and say total spirituality is an impediment to marriage.

No...one can be totally spiritual and married by doing bhakti...by regarding their spouse an an embodiment of God and doing their duties by them as a form of Bhakti and offering it to the feet of Lord Krishna

Recently this couple that i know off has filed for divorce. Reason - Wife met this guru and over night became spiritual(the guru by the way is out on bail). Well she still thinks he is God Himself who has come down in the human form. The husband and wife had a lot of fights and finally filed for divorce.

This Guru sounds fake ...since he was on bail.... and this womens first duty was towards her husband and marriage...she is clearly deluded...and it her delusion that has caused her divorce, not her spirituality. This had nothing to do with spirituality or God!

It is easy to say do everything without attachement. Now is that possible in todays day and age?

It is also easy to say renunciation is a sure-fire way to take you to God. Can it be possible in todays day and age....No. Yes it is difficult to cultivate detachment...probably impossible...hey its not like I am anywhere near detachment myself...but by engaging in bhakti you will (eventually ) realise God alone is real...everything else is Maya..(attachment). You will see God in every being, in your spouse ...your family... your friends... your pets...and you will do your duties towards then as form of bhakti keeping that God in Mind. By the way this what one should aspire to do...I am not saying I am there myself

I would rather be practical about these things and not fool myself.
Yes I can be spiritual and married, but spirituality at what level is the question?

Through Bhakti even whilst being married...one can attain the highest level of spirituality

Thanks...looking forward to reading more from you.
DHV

[nidi83]

Hi dhv, unless your wife or husband is on the same spiritual planet as you are its impossible to fulfil both the obligations in todays day and age. I may want to go to an ashram to seek peace, to meditate etc. Is that possible? No I need to think about my husband my children my home etc. No dhv I don't think its easy. I am not talking about mundane spirituality here mind you.
Like astroboy put it across, we are not gods and we are not realised souls. We are mere mortals bound by our social and marital obligations. These are my views purely. Could be wrong.

Suniti its a nice song. Didn't sound relevant to the context being discussed. Care to explain? Unless I am missing something
.

Thanking you,
Nidi

[suniti]

hi nidhiji

yeah i can see how it didnt seem relevant sometimes things that make sense to me are weird
please forgive me for that

the context was with or without anything external we are always close to God and no one can get in the way of that.

no one nothing can be an obstacle because there is no obstacle.
i believe spirituality is internal, whatever of the four ashrams we are in, its all in right seeing.the more we try to make it external the more we limit ourselves.

i don't see a means to spirituality because i dont see a goal. it's not result oriented, "truth is a pathless land", there is no one way, there cannot be hard and fast rules, no one can say this is the only way to get to God or whatever you want to call it and those who have attained That cannot say.

if that alicia keys song still doesnt make sense than take it as the ramblings of a crazy lady (me) with too much packed up in that mind that needs to let go or at least stick to FB for my ramblings

pranaams
suniti

[DHV]

Dear Nidi

Hi dhv, unless your wife or husband is on the same spiritual planet as you are its impossible to fulfil both the obligations in todays day and age.

No, if you regard your spouse as an embodiment of God than you will do your duty by him or her...that will be your priorty and your bhakti. Whether or not he or she is on the same spiritual planet as you is irrelevant. It is completely possible to fufill both obligations.

I may want to go to an ashram to seek peace, to meditate etc. Is that possible? No I need to think about my husband my children my home etc. No dhv I don't think its easy.

I agree its not easy. But I think you misunderstand me Nidi. As I said before if you are a householder,your priority is your husband and children, to look after them is your duty. To neglect them and then go to the ashram to meditate and seek peace is not right, thats not what I meant at all, and the Geeta clearly explains this. You can do your karma which is that of a wife and mother, and by perceiving your husband and children as embodiments of God (as is every living being in this world) you can also do bhakti by being a karmayogi, keeping the Lord at the centre of your activities and offering every action you do to him. That makes you just as spiritual as someone who renounces.

I am not talking about mundane spirituality here mind you.

Nor am I

Like astroboy put it across, we are not gods and we are not realised souls. We are mere mortals bound by our social and marital obligations. These are my views purely. Could be wrong.

But as human beings born on this earth, we are obliged to aspire towards that highest level of Dharma, to be born on a higher spiritual plane in the next life, and take a small baby step towards God. We cant just sit there and say we are mortals, we have to evolve and make efforts albeit small ones to realise God.Otherwise there is no point of being on this earth. How you can do that is explained perfectly in The Bhagwat Geeta and it is applicable to this day and age, to people from all walks of life.


Thanking you,
Nidi

These are my views, based on what I have seen , experienced and read in the Bhagwad Geeta. I havnt been lucky enough yet to have the time to read any Veda's or Purana's but I have read The Bhagwad Geeta which for me is the ultimate truth. Each to their own spirituals beliefs.
Thank you for sharing your views with me. Tc.

Kindest Regards
DHV

[Dev]

Hi DHV:

Very nice post.

It is not easy in Kalyuga to renunciate. That is why may be it is probably said that nama japa itself can lead to renunciation in kali yuga. It is the simplest that one can do.

So in advaita a person is a brahmachari and goes to sanyas ashram directly.
But in visitadwaita, a married person goes to Sanyas ashram. It is believed the latter will be more truthful since he has seen married life and will be least affected by lust, kama etc. However a person who has never seen that can be tempted, this is the belief. Remember I am not supporting or against any of these ideologies.

Bogus sanyasis are many in number. I have known renunicated people who are married and lead materialistic life. They are much better than many real sanyasis too in the sense, they dont go for fame, are honest to the core, are not affected by tragedies much, are not too happy when something good happens, are more balanced, dont go behind money, women, bad habits like smoking, drinking, cards etc, dont have ego, pray to God regularly, help others irrespective of caste and creed. If I am not blowing my own trumpet, my father was one of those.So I think materialistic people can be like a sanyasi too still being in family life.

Dev

[lovacrs]

But what about Sri Rama and Lord Krishna who are believed to be incornations and existed on the
earth with spouses,

Also what about the revered saptharishis? I remember a good many of them were married and had their spouses along side all the time. Are they considered to have attained moksha? When sage Gauthama got angry at his wife for her unholy (albeit unwitting) liaison with Indra what was he angry about?

[Dev]

Yes Jan, it is a sheer coincidence.
Your article is interesting.
Question is to listen within for hearing your own personal dharma and be true to that.
But then u got a clear cut answer for that and not everyone get an answer. May be u were already in that path in parallel though may be more inclined towards spirituality .
Dev

[Dev]

Yes, but when u named it "material madness", u were already getting away from it. So it may appear to be in parellel but may be u always had a slight aversion for materialistic pursuits.

Yes mind is so complex and roams around the whole world in no time.

Yes, having spiritual books, cd's and occasional retreats is helpful
holding the path straight. They are ur gurus when u dont have a personal guru.

I dont know of Kasmir Shaivism and havent heard of it. Give me the link if possible.

Dev

[DHV]

Hi DHV:

Very nice post.

Thank you devji

It is not easy in Kalyuga to renunciate. That is why may be it is probably said that nama japa itself can lead to renunciation in kali yuga. It is the simplest that one can do.


I completely agree

So in advaita a person is a brahmachari and goes to sanyas ashram directly.
But in visitadwaita, a married person goes to Sanyas ashram. It is believed the latter will be more truthful since he has seen married life and will be least affected by lust, kama etc. However a person who has never seen that can be tempted, this is the belief.Remember I am not supporting or against any of these ideologies.
Bogus sanyasis are many in number. I have known renunicated people who are married and lead materialistic life. They are much better than many real sanyasis too in the sense, they dont go for fame, are honest to the core, are not affected by tragedies much, are not too happy when something good happens, are more balanced, dont go behind money, women, bad habits like smoking, drinking, cards etc, dont have ego, pray to God regularly, help others irrespective of caste and creed. If I am not blowing my own trumpet, my father was one of those.So I think materialistic people can be like a sanyasi too still being in family life.


what you say here makes perfect sense to me. Some of the qualities which you have described are in chapter 12 of the Bhagwat Geeta titled "Bhakti Yoga". Lord Krishna states a devotee with such qualities "yo mad bhakta same priya" is very dear to him. However it is very difficult to be like that as we all have some vice or another, some element of negativity.Nobody is perfect. But we can try! You are lucky to have had such a father!

Dev

Kind Regards
dhv

[nidi83]

I agree its not easy. But I think you misunderstand me Nidi. As I said before if you are a householder,your priority is your husband and children, to look after them is your duty. To neglect them and then go to the ashram to meditate and seek peace is not right, thats not what I meant at all, and the Geeta clearly explains this. You can do your karma which is that of a wife and mother, and by perceiving your husband and children as embodiments of God (as is every living being in this world) you can also do bhakti by being a karmayogi, keeping the Lord at the centre of your activities and offering every action you do to him. That makes you just as spiritual as someone who renounces.

Hi DHV,

Who is a Karma Yogi?

Karma yoga is described as a way of acting, thinking and willing by which one orients oneself toward realization by acting in accordance with one's duty (dharma) without consideration of personal self-centered desires, likes or dislikes. One acts without being attached to the fruits of one's deeds.

In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says:

Therefore, without being attached to the fruits of activities, one should act as a matter of duty, for by working without attachment one attains the Supreme

.

Just answer one question - Is it possible for one not to be attached to one's wife or husband or children? I am not talking about taking baby steps towards spirituality here. I am talking about spirituality at its heights. Again let us not refer to the Gods who were married or the great sages who were realised souls and were on another planet of spiritualism. I am talking about you and me. Its impossible for me not to be attached. Can one make love to her husband without feeling anything? Lets take Gautam Buddha for eg. He could have been a Karma Yogi. Why did he have to leave his wife, kingdom and everything else to find God? Is it that simple. Yes Bhagwat Geetha may tell us its possible. Lets be true to ourselves and seek answers from within.

Lets take the life of Akkamahadevi, a great saint born in Karnataka.

Akkamahadevi was married off to a local Jain King. Mahadeviyakkha was unwilling to reciprocate the desire of the King. Mahadeviyakkha was immersed in devotion to her Lord and she could not accept a life of servitude to an atheistic King.

Her family were highly critical of her “unorthodox” behaviour and this led Mahadevia to renounce her worldly life. Mahadevi left her marriage and place of birth to live the life of a wandering mendicant. Mahadevi is said to have worn only long tresses. She felt clothes were a needless adornment for one seeking the Lord.

.

Which is why i said unless the husband and wife are on the same spiritual planet, its impossible for one to lead a highly spiritual life. Its impossible for one not to be attached and just perform all the tasks as a duty. One should be emotionally dead for that.

To all the members who have been saying its possible, these are purely my views and beliefs. I could be wrong.

Thanking you,

Nidi

[nidi83]

yeah i can see how it didnt seem relevant sometimes things that make sense to me are weird
please forgive me for that

the context was with or without anything external we are always close to God and no one can get in the way of that.

Hi Suniti,

You are free to express what you want. I just didn't know that Alicia Keys song was between you and God

Thanking you,

Nidi

[nidi83]

Lets take the Bible for eg:

Scripture fairly consistently awards celibacy a higher spiritual calling than marriage.

...it is well for them to remain unmarried as I am...it is well for you to remain as you are...do not seek a wife...he who refrains from marriage will do better...(I Cor., 7-8 and 32-38)

Paul says that celibacy provides "unhindered devotion to the Lord. " (1 cor 7:35) Jesus tells us "it is better not to marry...let anyone accept this who can." (Mat 19:10-12).

Jesus clearly said let anyone accept this "who can". Who can is important here. The catholic church considers marriage a definite impediment to spirituality. Which is why a catholic priest cannot get married. After all you can serve "ONLY ONE MASTER". You cannot have 2 masters. One cannot do justice to both is the belief.

Thanking you,

Nidi

[Basab]

Nidhi,

I completely agree with you: being spiritual is a difficult affair. Now then, why are we wasting our time discussing something, which we can never be? Why spend all our mind and energy in reading and then thinking and then discussing spirituality here? We are materialistic people, so why waste time on thinking about spirituality?

[astroboy]

Nidhi Ji , You are absolutely right . Look how far Christianity spread due to its priests . Their single minded dedication to their "God" gave them enough courage and time to spread the religion far and wide . We cannot ignore this man Jesus christ , he lived for 32 years and succeeded in converting half the world to his words . I personally do not find any logic in christianity , But the draw towards it is amazing .


Asceticism in one of its most intense forms can be found in one of the oldest religions, Jainism. Jainism encourages fasting, yoga practices, meditation in difficult postures, and other austerities. According to Jains, one's highest goal should be moksha (i.e., liberation from samsara, the cycle of birth and rebirth). For this, a soul has to be without attachment or self-indulgence. This can be achieved only by the monks and nuns who take five great vows: Ahimsa (Non-violence), Satya (Truth), Asteya (Non-stealing), Brahmacharya (Chastity) and Aparigraha (Non-attachment). Most of the austerities and ascetic practices can be traced back to Vardhaman Mahavira, the twenty-fourth " Tirthankara.

[nidi83]

Basab its nice to discuss anything with an open mind. Its called a debate. You can either participate in it or choose to stay out if you think its a waste of time. Its completely your choice. You never know what you get to learn discussing things with an open mind. For all you know, tomorrow someone might just convince you and you will be singing freewill all the way to heaven

Thanking you,

Nidi

[nidi83]

Dear Astroboy,

Just to debate on this further - Would you be having Sri Ramakrishna Paramhamsa's horoscope. And if so can you throw some light on his chart. He was a married man too. But his wife was as spiritual as him and she infact led the movement after his death.

Thanking you,

Nidi

[astroboy]

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
18 02 1836
6:23 AM
Hooghly District
West Bengal

Lagna is Kumbha @ 03 Deg 14 using Parashara Light .

If you are using J hora , Use LMT .

[Basab]

Nidi,

True, what you are saying that we should discuss everything with an open mind, but are we doing that? Have you discussed destiny with me with an open mind, or have I discussed free will with you with an open mind? Neither did you listen to what I said about destiny, nor did I listen to what you said about free will with an open mind--each of us passing our final verdict on the topic. So is it a debate after all? Is it a discussion with an open mind? That is something I am wondering.

I think it is a waste of time because we are doing nothing but telling everyone our point of view and trying to make them accept it. Why waste time trying to convince others if we are not ready to listen and learn from them too! If you were listening to others, then you would have tried to understand why I was saying "destiny is predestined", tried to understand why there is a saying like this: "Bhagwan Shiva explains that no one is clever and no one is foolish, we all do whatever and whichever, he desires us to do."; but instead, you said that I will learn one day why it is not that, why I am wrong and you are right, showing your closed mind to taking new thoughts.

Just ask yourself honestly, how many times you have agreed with a person, whose views on a point is different from yours, and you will know how open minded you are; and now, don't give that excuse of having a logic for something you believe in because we all have our own logic to defend our beliefs, and we all think that it's a flawless logic.

I don't know whether I will be convinced about free will ever because I never said I have an open mind, but I can guarantee this that even though you talk about having an open mind, no one can convince you that "destiny is predestined", because you have not come here with an open mind about it. I am happy that at least I am not a hypocrite--that I don't preach something which I don't follow myself.

Basab its nice to discuss anything with an open mind. Its called a debate. You can either participate in it or choose to stay out if you think its a waste of time. Its completely your choice. You never know what you get to learn discussing things with an open mind. For all you know, tomorrow someone might just convince you and you will be singing freewill all the way to heaven

Thanking you,

Nidi

[nidi83]

Basab, I was the one who told you there are two sides to a coin. I was the one who wrote about how pain killer helps in curing the pain(taking pain killer being freewill and pain being destiny). I sure believe in both destiny and freewill. I do not believe in just destiny or just freewill. And I have a very open mind and I am open to discussion. And I still strongly believe you will start believing in both too, if u already havent. That does not in anyway say that i believe in only freewill and not destiny. Don't waste your time on "I said you said" bit. That to me is a waste of time.



Thanking you,

Nidi

[Basab]

Nidhi:

Would you please help me understand this line: "Bhagwan Shiva explains that no one is clever and no one is foolish, we all do whatever and whichever, he desires us to do."Does it give a hint about free will? If it does, I will sure try to believe in free will.

[nidi83]

Basab, Why don't you ask Bhagwan Shiva that. Talk to him. You will get your answer. I already know the answer. I do not take anything out of context. I see both the negatives and positives. I apply what is applicable to my life and leave the rest. If you want to think destiny is presdestined and freewill does not exist, by reading one or two lines and you are happy in your belief, you should continue with that belief. Like Anupam said, why go on about it and asking for hundreds of clarifications. This is waste of time to me. We are having a healthy debate here on spirituality and marriage. Lets stick to that. What say?

And Basab i read your post before you edited it. I did not have the time to reply then. Infact you said I think I have started believing in freewill and promptly edited it saying atleast you are not a hypocrite. I can understand the confusion in your mind Basab. There is a time for everything. Till then be happy in your belief.

Thanking you,

Nidi

[Basab]

See, now you have shown your closed mind. You are not ready to discuss. Bhagwan Shiva doesn't need to be asked because he has told what the truth is. He has made a statement. God has made a statement, and you refuse to believe that!! Anyway, I have proved your closed mind once and for all.

And about the fate of this discussion, we can see it for ourselves going by the last few pages. Everyone is making their point and trying to change the others belief to what they believe in. Great debate going on here!

Good day to you.

[nidi83]

Thank you Basab for the proof. Does that make you happy? I am very happy that made you happy. Be happy with the statement Bhagwan Shiva has made. And I am happy that I made you happy.

Good day to you too.

Thanking you,

Nidi

[Basab]

I hope you are happy, Nidhi because many smile outside and fume inside...