I want to break Free

[nidi83]

Mr. Astrosonu,

Coming back to the mantras:

Gayatri Mantra is part of the Rig Veda which is the root to other veda’s also. Gayatri mantra consists of three parts:

1.Praise,
2. Meditation, and
3. Prayer.

While chanting the mantra, we first praise the Divinity, meditate upon it in all reverence and then finally pray for guidance to the right direction. The Mantra is said to be the embodiment of all deities and is certainly not associated with any particular religion or sect, time, place or person. While Om, Bhuh, Bhuvah, Swaha, Thath, Savithur, Varenyam, Bhargo and Devasya are said to be the praise of the Divine, Dheemahi is related to meditation/contemplation of the divine and Dhiyo, Yo, Nah and Prachodayaath are said to be the parts of the prayer aspects of the mantra.

Do women not have the equal rights to Praise Divinity, Meditate on Infinity and pray for blessings?

All mantras have two elements: Bija (Energy) and Prathana (Prayer) – The bija is effective energy or Shakti generating sound of the mantra. In the Gayatri mantra the bijas are Om, bhur, bhuvah, suvaha. Bhur is related to the chakra at the base of the spine (muladhara), bhuvah,(svadhisthana) and suvaha the third chakra (manipura). Om is the bija for stimulating spiritual consciousness. Bhuh also represents the earth element, bhuvaha represents the water element and suvaha the fire element. The whole Gayatri mantra is said to be representing all the veda’s and the entire existence of the universe.

‘Gayatri’ is also a feminine name and personified as a Godess and she is held in equal reverence because she is the mother of the Vedas or Divine Knowledge. How can then women be denied to chant a mantra which has been originated from the feminine aspect of this creation?

The other two forms of Gayatri are Savitri and Saraswathi and these three are said to be present in everyone, in which – Gayatri is said to be the one to control the senses of a person, Savitri controls the Prana or the Life Force of a person and Saraswathi controls Speech of a person. Thus, the three together represent the purity in thought, word, and deed. In the same order, Gayatri is said to enhance one’s intelligence and intuition by recitation of the mantra, Savitri is said to protect the life forces and Saraswati is said to guard one’s speech. Should women not be encouraged when the essence of it is to uplift the conciousness of the person?

As you can see there is no indication within the Mantra or its translation or its spiritual relevance that Gayatri mantra is gender specific and only can be chanted by a male!!!

If I may say so, the only explaination that I can think of(could be wrong) is such references and restrictions were mainly propagated by a handful of priests and brahmin pundits from the previous generations. The most common reasons that can be given to this is either it is tradition or it produces too much heat in the body so women should not chant Gayatri Mantra(as mentioned in my earlier post). Both these answers are unacceptable as justifications for such a restriction(menses happens only once a month).

Hence in conclusion I would like to believe that such rules were made more to preserve the political and revered status of brahmins in Hindu society. Since the Gayatri is an essential chant in most Hindu temple ceremonies and may be this rule was created to retain male dominance in the priests traditions?

Thanking you,

Nidi

[Dev]

Even women wore yagnyopavit in arya samaj or so even 20 years back, now I dont know.

Dev

[Abhijit Muhurta !!!]

Nidi,

Hence in conclusion I would like to believe that such rules were made more to preserve the political and revered status of brahmins in Hindu society. Since the Gayatri is an essential chant in most Hindu temple ceremonies and may be this rule was created to retain male dominance in the priests traditions?

The name of the game is power. You tell me one soul who can give it up....the rich giving away his money..the politician giving away his seat...the knowledgeable...agreeing to the others point of view.....and even a Math head.
A spiritual head apparently wears saffron...he's supposed to have taken "sanyasa". do you know how much they get attached to the power and position given to them by the society..? For a true renunciate even his begging bowl can be a source of attachment.
But then if everyone renounces..... then how does a society function...? so there is a place for everyone under the sun....one just needs to marvel at the diversity and see ones own significance/insignificance in this vast canvas of life

[nidi83]

To continue from where I left, Mr. Astrosonu you say Adi Shankaracharya was a Vishnu Dweshi. Can you please clarify the same for all our benefit. Here's what i have to say:

"The Vishnu sahasranāma has been the subject of numerous commentaries. Adi Shankaracharya wrote a definitive commentary on the sahasranāma in the 8th century, which is the oldest and has been particularly influential for many schools of Hinduism even today"..

A person like Adi Shankaracharya could never have been a Vishnu Dweshi. Could he, after reading the above? He was responsible for spreading Hinduism in India. If not for him Buddism would have taken over Hinduism in India(Not that I am in anyway stating that Hinduism is better than Buddism). He was a great soul, who walked the length and breadth of India teaching the scriptures that you hold with such high regards today.


Thanking you,

Nidi

[Dev]

Hi Abhijit Muhurta(AM as it occurs only in day time):

The name of the game is power. You tell me one soul who can give it up....the rich giving away his money..the politician giving away his seat...the knowledgeable...agreeing to the others point of view.....and even a Math head.
Well said.

A spiritual head apparently wears saffron...he's supposed to have taken "sanyasa". do you know how much they get attached to the power and position given to them by the society..? For a true renunciate even his begging bowl can be a source of attachment.
Very true

But then if everyone renounces..... then how does a society function...? so there is a place for everyone under the sun....one just needs to marvel at the diversity and see ones own significance/insignificance in this vast canvas of life

Yes, dont worry, the society will function since atleast we both will be there who wont renounce
One should enjoy and appreciate the diversity. If everything is alike, people will get bored .

Dev

[Basab]

without brahmin birth moksha sadhana cannot be achieved

Astrosonu,

I feel a theory is meaningless if it doesn't work in real life. When it is said that a Brahmin is eligible for moksha, it means that his soul has reached a higher level of evolution to be eligible for it. Now, that way a Brahmin should have been highly spiritual in his previous lives to be eligible for moksha in this life. Now, we see so many scoundrels in this world who are Brahmin by birth! Will you say that they are eligible for moskha? I mean how does it make sense that they have reached a high level of evolution to come to the point of being born as Brahmin if they are doing immoral acts in this life?

I am a Brahmin, but I am not spiritual to the least. How do you explain that? If I am born a Brahmin, then I am a highly evolved soul, isn't it? But for someone who is not interested in spirituality, who doesn't believe in living that life, how can he given the eligibility for salvation? I remember you had written here some time back that you are not a Brahmin. That way you mean to say that I am a more evolved soul than you? I think no one will believe that that I am a more evolved soul than you. Someone who is living a spiritual life, praying to Vishnu, is not eligible for moksha, but someone who is leading a materialistic life, finding his Goddess in an actress is eligible for that just because he is born a Brahmin? Will anyone believe this?

What about people from other religions? Will only Hindu's get moksha and not people from any other religion?

[nidi83]

Mr. Astrosonu,

You said only Brahmins can attain moksha. A shudra who is good will be born as a Brahmin and then attain Moksha maybe. Here is what I think:

Guna based caste system alone holds that castes are not equal. Only a Brahmin can study Vedas and gain moksha. It has to be noted that Brahmin means Guna based Brahmin and not birth based Brahmin. By working in the chosen profession a Sudra should become a Vaisya, a vaisya should become a Kshatria, a Kshatria should become Brahmin and finally attain Moksha. This is the intention of Vedas.

Thus if a Brahmin (birth based) becomes a politician and works for the welfare of the country he is Kshatria by profession. Instead of working for the county if he takes bribe and accumulates personal wealth, he is Vaisya by profession. If he does not do any work except raising the hands in the parliament in tune with the high command of the party then he is a Sudra by Guna.

Thanking you,

Nidi

[Abhijit Muhurta !!!]

Basab very interesting observations.....
I am myself a brahmin by birth but i do not adhere to any theories or rules .... how am i evolved then...? Ofcourse my down slide is now assured but thats in the next life time...

I am a Brahmin, but I am not spiritual to the least. How do you explain that? If I am born a Brahmin then I am a highly evolved soul, isn't it? But for someone who is not interested in spirituality, who doesn't believe in living that life, how can he given the eligibility for salvation? I remember you had written here some time back that you are not a Brahmin. That way you mean to say that I am a more evolved soul than you? I think no one will believe that that I am a more evolved soul than you. Someone who is living a spiritual life, praying to Vishnu is not eligible for moksha and someone who is leading a materialistic life, finding his Goddess in an actress is eligible for that? Will anyone believe this?

Curious to know the answers...

[Dev]

Basab:

I agree with u but what if Goddess took avatara and took the form of your favourite actess, so as to slowly bring u into spirituality . You seem to be craving for the actress much more than a kid craving for the ice cream .

Dev

[Nitin21]

Do women not have the equal rights to Praise Divinity, Meditate on Infinity and pray for blessings?

Dear Nidi,

I have a question. Do men not have equal rights to get impregnated, carry the womb for 9 months and feel the child within ? Why has the Lord devoid us of the same. This is partiality. . It's atrocious they can wear a mangalsutra. Why did Shastras not allow men for that ? Are men inferior. ?

I am also apalled by God's mercy on women to bring wealth being called as "Laxmi". What is wrong with my constitution ? Why can't I bring wealth with my auspiciousness ? Are males untouchables ? Are they inauspicious ?

Does that answer your question my friend ?

---------------

This thread has calmed to a great extent, so lets not begin with the Vishnu-Dweshi thing again. To understand what is a Vishnu-Dweshi, one needs to understand what/who is Vishnu first. If you know that consciously, you will know where is the dwesha . Vishnu is one factor, even demons cannot deny directly. Dig up the incarnations and purpose of his birth in Shastras. Hint: Skanda Purana, Padma Purana. Have a good day.

Regards
Sonu

[Dev]

Dear Sonu:

I did not get reply for my questions on Pralay and cow above.

Dev

[nidi83]

Mr. Astrosonu,

No it does not answer my question. Let me tell you, Brahma created us as man and woman. We were born with certain physical attributes. So there is a restriction with which one is born with, depending on the gender he or she is born with. When it comes to mantras, A woman has the same vocal cord as a man and she can speak. And hence she can chant. Even if a man wants to get himself impregnated he cannot. That is how God made him. So that is the difference.

Thanking you,

Nidi

[Nitin21]

Basab

This requires deeper knowledge of karma theory of Agama, Sanchita and Prarabdha. Look at me. from the age of 20 - 34, I did everything. chain smoker, 3 affairs, alcohol consumption, non veg consumption, disobeyed elders, left the worship although my family has good roots in the spiritual sadhana (my grandparents). Now in front of you i am talking about importance of Vedic injunctions. I have crossed the stage to have yagnovapeeta done. But, i have initiated all this study.

Now tell me, Am I eligible for Moksha in this birth ? If so where will all this prarabdha of karma of age above go. ? I in the next births have to suffer for what I did between 20-34 age. At teh same time, Lord also has to give me an opportunity to learn more about Vedic injunctions in next few births because the soul has initiated the desire to serve the almighty.

For e.g. I ate chicken. Next 10 births I become a chicken. I ate lamb - Next 7 births I become a lamb. After that I also did thsi spiritual devotion at the age of 35 and above. So, I get a better birth with factors surrounding for religious upliftment. I also consumed alcohol for which I have to suffer owing to Guna swabhava. So, in the same brahmin birth in one of those, I may initiate drinking at soem point of time. Until i go up and down with further births and finally gain the state of perfection where in each of my past births I have done only positive karma. And now, as a brahmin in THAT BIRTH, I start my Moksha Sadhana, because my Sooksha Sharir is clear of the asat Gunas.

Its evolution my friend. Even a brahmin when he was a Shudra has to suffer for what he did as Shudra, so it will manifest in brahmin birth too. But at teh same time the Sadhana will prompt him to take next birth as brahmin only (NOT MOKSHA). So, the soul will continue all the Sadhana and then finally in teh state of perfection the Lord will give me impromptu license to achieve moksha.

Basab even if you are a brahmin by birth, it will not entitle you to moksha if you have not followed Vedic injunctions. this is very clear in Bhagavat Purana. chapters 17,18,19 all shlokas deal with Varna Vyavastha. Only Vedic literature study and Pure devotion combined with Perfect Karma gives you liberation. It is not either or. so, please do not think that when I say a brahmin achieves moksha then all brahmins will achieve moksha ..

Hope i am clear this time.

without brahmin birth moksha sadhana cannot be achieved

Astrosonu,

I feel a theory is meaningless if it doesn't work in real life. When it is said that a Brahmin is eligible for moksha, it means that his soul has reached a higher level of evolution to be eligible for it. Now, that way a Brahmin should have been highly spiritual in his previous lives to be eligible for moksha in this life. Now, we see so many scoundrels in this world who are Brahmin by birth! Will you say that they are eligible for moskha? I mean how does it make sense that they have reached a high level of evolution to come to the point of being born as Brahmin if they are doing immoral acts in this life?

I am a Brahmin, but I am not spiritual to the least. How do you explain that? If I am born a Brahmin, then I am a highly evolved soul, isn't it? But for someone who is not interested in spirituality, who doesn't believe in living that life, how can he given the eligibility for salvation? I remember you had written here some time back that you are not a Brahmin. That way you mean to say that I am a more evolved soul than you? I think no one will believe that that I am a more evolved soul than you. Someone who is living a spiritual life, praying to Vishnu, is not eligible for moksha, but someone who is leading a materialistic life, finding his Goddess in an actress is eligible for that just because he is born a Brahmin? Will anyone believe this?

What about people from other religions? Will only Hindu's get moksha and not people from any other religion?

[nidi83]

And Mr.Astrosonu,

I am sorry for mentioning Vishnu Dweshi again. My idea was not to rake up anything. But to understand your point of view. Adi Shankaracharya was by no means a Vishnu Dweshi is the point I was trying to make. Please forgive me if you thought otherwise. No Mr.Astrosonu, I do not have the time to read what you have suggested, though I read a lot of religious books. Would have been great if you had educated us. If time does not permit no problem.

Thanking you,

Nidi

[nidi83]

Tell me another thing Mr. Astrosonu,

To attain complete moksha, Buddha, Prophet Mohammed, Jesus Christ, have to be born as a brahmin?

[Nitin21]

Mr. Astrosonu,

No it does not answer my question. Let me tell you, Brahma created us as man and woman. We were born with certain physical attributes. So there is a restriction with which one is born with, depending on the gender he or she is born with.

Nidi - It is because you do not wish to understand the answer, not because I have not explained. If there are limitations at Physical level and there are differences. The same differences are also there at astral level. Its just that you want to see one which is visible to the naked eye and not the other part.

Regards

[Nitin21]

Tell me another thing Mr. Astrosonu,

To attain complete moksha, Buddha, Prophet Mohammed, Jesus Christ, have to be born as a brahmin?

answers to this will rake up another issue Nidi. Keep it under the wraps Although, I am a hindu, I have christian, muslim, gujrati etc lot of friends. We are also a secular country. So, Dharma advises us to abide by the law of the country as well. Even I gave a correct answer to this, no one will win. No point in attaining knowledge that can create divisions. Let this be in the literature itself. Hope you understand.

Regards

[Dev]

Hi Sonu:

Smoking, drinking are all mistakes, OK, eating nonveg is also a sin, but if u are not a brahmin, u are allowed but these are not as grave ( and mostly only affect ur health and may be some slight problems in relationships) as compared to cheating someone who trusts u, in terms of money, relationship and in other ways. How many janmas would that person need to get away from those sins? Atleast 10000000 ?

Dev

[Nitin21]

Dear Sonu:

I did not get reply for my questions on Pralay and cow above.

Dev

Dear Dev,

A soul is never born or dead. During Pralaya Lord merges all the souls within. And by the beginning of next kalpa, the same souls are released to accomplish their left over or new karma. Source: Narada Puran

Regarding Cow, I dont know sir.

regards

[Nitin21]

Hi Sonu:

Smoking, drinking are all mistakes, OK, eating nonveg is also a sin, but if u are not a brahmin, u are allowed but these are not as grave ( and mostly only affect ur health and may be some slight problems in relationships) as compared to cheating someone who trusts u, in terms of money, relationship and in other ways. How many janmas would that person need to get away from those sins? Atleast 10000000 ?

Dev

Sins and their punishments are described in Garuda Puran. Mortal logic does not work in these cases. A Sin is a sin. Big or small. It has to be either erased by remedies OR be reaped in future births. Even if no other sins are left. Killing an ant can cause a new birth.

[nidi83]

Mr. Astrosonu,

Can I ask you something if you don't mind? There are so many people participating in this thread. Everybody except one has contradicted you on what you have said.

"It's only when we are willing to be vulnerable, unprotected by fixed ideas, traditions, and habitual ways, that the adventure of self-discovery, the inward voyage can begin."

Here's another:

"The devout Jewish practice of hand washing before meals, for purposes not of cleanliness but of consecration, was a ceremonial elaboration.... But like other pious ceremonies, the practice could become a mere form, a rigid regulation enforced by appeal to the authority of ‘the tradition of the elders.’ ...it was one of those relatively new scribal-Pharisaic regulations which worked hardship upon the ordinary rank and file of working people...."

The Pharisees had elevated tradition to the same category as scripture. There is nothing wrong with tradition. All churches have traditions, and many of the things we do each Sunday morning are based indirectly on centuries-old traditions. The problem comes when we claim these traditions are as important as God’s word. This is what the Pharisees were doing" - Grant
I hope you are getting what I am trying to say.....

Thanking you,

Nidi

[Nitin21]

BTW Guys and Gals.. give me a break.. My hands are aching now.. So many questions and only one person to answer...

Watch this.. Have Fun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVzvdCKuu4w I love this song.

[Nitin21]

Dear Nidi,

I answered it already. In kaliyuga people are doing what they like, not what they are supposed to do. This is also Hari Sankalpa. Like many brahmins in this thread not even doing atleast Gayatri ??? Are you saying you dont know that a Gayatri is must for a brahmin ?? And I am supposed to take that as a majority and think that all of them are right ! Nidiji this is the whole problem with Maya. Exceptions are always there .. hope you understand what i am saying..

Regards

Mr. Astrosonu,

Can I ask you something if you don't mind? There are so many people participating in this thread. Everybody except one has contradicted you on what you have said.

"It's only when we are willing to be vulnerable, unprotected by fixed ideas, traditions, and habitual ways, that the adventure of self-discovery, the inward voyage can begin."

Here's another:

"The devout Jewish practice of hand washing before meals, for purposes not of cleanliness but of consecration, was a ceremonial elaboration.... But like other pious ceremonies, the practice could become a mere form, a rigid regulation enforced by appeal to the authority of ‘the tradition of the elders.’ ...it was one of those relatively new scribal-Pharisaic regulations which worked hardship upon the ordinary rank and file of working people...."

The Pharisees had elevated tradition to the same category as scripture. There is nothing wrong with tradition. All churches have traditions, and many of the things we do each Sunday morning are based indirectly on centuries-old traditions. The problem comes when we claim these traditions are as important as God’s word. This is what the Pharisees were doing"

I hope you are getting what I am trying to say.....

Thanking you,

Nidi

[Dev]

Dear Sonu,

A soul is never born or dead. During Pralaya Lord merges all the souls within. And by the beginning of next kalpa, the same souls are released to accomplish their left over or new karma. Source: Narada Puran[/color

Thank u, that is convinving.

Regarding Cow, I read somewhere, they themselves grant moksha. I read, unke punch ko pakdne par moksh prapti jarur hogi. Anyway it shows that they are powerful.

Dev

[Nitin21]

Cows indeed are very pious Dev. The Cow Dung, the cow urine were used in earlier times as medicines and dung was used to clean the floor.

Dear Sonu,

A soul is never born or dead. During Pralaya Lord merges all the souls within. And by the beginning of next kalpa, the same souls are released to accomplish their left over or new karma. Source: Narada Puran[/color

Thank u, that is convinving.

Regarding Cow, I read somewhere, they themselves grant moksha. I read, unke punch ko pakdne par moksh prapti jarur hogi. Anyway it shows that they are powerful.

Dev