Retrograde planet aspects

[music_man]

We have read that retrograde planets have two sets of aspects, one from the house it is placed in and one from the previous house. If this is the case, how do the aspects behave?

1. It becomes relevant because if the planets(aspecting/aspected) are 1-7 and 6-8 from each other, one relation might be beneficial and the other might not. Which relationship takes precedence, like in, are there any rules regarding this that anyone knows of?

2 Does the exact degree of a retrograde planet's location have a say on which house it is situated in more?

3. This also implies that the 2 houses it is aspecting has a 1-12 relationship. Which house will gain more?
For example:
Retrograde Jupiter in lagna . We should consider it is in 12 and 1, aspecting 5 and 6. Which house gets better here? Are we saying though the aspected houses are in 1-12 relationship, both will gain? Isn't this contradictory with basic principles, and not to forget transits.

Does anybody have example charts and could learned members please comment.

[elipsis]

From my research a retrograde planet stops giving benefic results of the house it resides and it largely gives negative results of that particular house irrespective of the planets/aspects it is associated with, this happens regardless of whether a planet is natural benefic or malefic. So if any planet aspects a retrograde it won't have any effect on the chart. Secondly, a retrograde aspects the preceding signs and during those aspects if there is a friendly forward moving planet then depending upon the strength and distance between the two planets the retro planet activates the benefic results of that preceding sign. Also mutual relationship between a retrograde and a straight moving planet is quite useless as one planet is unwilling to remain in the sign that establishes such relationship.

A retrograde mercury always indicates frequent changes in the academic stream. Frequent change of courses, leaving school/university and taking up some profession, sudden downfall in exams, attention disorders, starting an epic romance and forgetting academics etc....all of these are the indicators of a retrograde mercury. Using the same principle you can guess how other planets behave when they are retrograde.

[music_man]

Elipsis,
Thank you for your inputs. Some of these points are counter-intuitive, but very interesting.

1. "stops giving benefic results of the house it resides and it largely gives negative results of that particular house irrespective of the planets/aspects it is associated with, this happens regardless of whether a planet is natural benefic or malefic."

- It implies that it acts as almost like a malefic in that house, or more like a dushthana lord in a benefic house, reducing/destroying the positive significations of that house.
- Are there any conditions or possibilities where this can be reversed - like it gives positive results instead? Analogous to neechabhanga, debilitated/combust etc.For example: Retrograde Venus or Jupiter exalted/moolatrikona.
- How about strong retrograde in a dushthana, like 6th house, may be then it would be a good placement?

2."a retrograde aspects the preceding signs and during those aspects if there is a friendly forward moving planet then depending upon the strength and distance between the two planets the retro planet activates the benefic results of that preceding sign."

- If there was no benefic planet here, would it still do good to the sign?
- If there were a malefic, malefic results are reduced ?
- If we ignore signs, can this be generalized as if you are benefic, and you are behind the retrograde planet(RP) in degrees( in the same house), the RP would do good to you?

3. "mutual relationship between a retrograde and a straight moving planet is quite useless as one planet is unwilling to remain in the sign that establishes such relationship."

- Can two retrogade planets form a relationship . ( It would probably be a double whammy?)
-How about 2 retrograde planets exchanging houses, could this be construed as a VRY, analogous to two dusthana lords exchanging houses.
- Do these principles apply to the nodes too? Or only to planets.

[elipsis]

Elipsis,
Thank you for your inputs. Some of these points are counter-intuitive, but very interesting.

1. "stops giving benefic results of the house it resides and it largely gives negative results of that particular house irrespective of the planets/aspects it is associated with, this happens regardless of whether a planet is natural benefic or malefic."

- It implies that it acts as almost like a malefic in that house, or more like a dushthana lord in a benefic house, reducing/destroying the positive significations of that house.

It's not a text book malefic but according to my teacher a retrograde planet feels as if it is forced to give something that it doesn't want to, this constriction results into unpredictable behavior on part of the planet but there is sufficient literature that points to bad results in general. You can test this on the transit chart if you want, when saturn turns retrograde and aspects natal Ketu most of us experience setbacks and trauma, this is mainly because saturn activates past life karmic balances which results in panic and confusion for most people as they can't really understand what is really going on with their life. Anything that is untimely results in panic so retrograde planets are untimely.

- Are there any conditions or possibilities where this can be reversed - like it gives positive results instead? Analogous to neechabhanga, debilitated/combust etc.For example: Retrograde Venus or Jupiter exalted/moolatrikona.
- How about strong retrograde in a dushthana, like 6th house, may be then it would be a good placement?

No and I also don't think that a planet in debilitation is anything bad, why should there be a neechabhanga when there isn't any evidence to show that debilitation is bad for you. Dignity of a planet is very subjective when you compare it to present modern era. There are remedies for everything but they require many life style changes. The remedial astrology is an experimental science but it has worked for many people but many people also feel disappointed, perhaps because they aren't sincere enough in following those remedies in the first place but nobody would know for sure. I remember one guy who had retrograde malefic mars, he suffered from cardiac and liver disorders but the lifestyle changes he adopted significantly reduced the affliction of mars which in-turn resulted him getting the right medicines from the right doctors after a while. Like donating and getting rid of electrical items at home reduces the overall strength of your natal mars thereby reducing the affliction temporarily until your problem is resolved but like I said before it requires some sacrifices and experimentation before such remedies can work for you. Certain acts will activate or deactivate the planetary effects in your chart and those that depend upon you but knowing what those acts are and finding out whether those acts are really worth the trouble is the key.

- If there was no benefic planet here, would it still do good to the sign?

No

- If there were a malefic, malefic results are reduced ?

Nope. There are a few instances where I couldn't tell whether its a benefic or malefic results. Retrograde Venus aspecting Mars in the preceding sign results in people chasing ex-partners or married people after breaking up with their existing partners. Again this depends on the distance of separation and signs.

- If we ignore signs, can this be generalized as if you are benefic, and you are behind the retrograde planet(RP) in degrees( in the same house), the RP would do good to you?

I can't give a straight answer to this because I don't have enough evidence to show those effects but if you want my opinion the answer is no, because the point of a retrograde planet is that it is unwilling to give the results of that sign. But retro planets are known for their erratic behavior so anything can happen.

3. "mutual relationship between a retrograde and a straight moving planet is quite useless as one planet is unwilling to remain in the sign that establishes such relationship."

- Can two retrogade planets form a relationship . ( It would probably be a double whammy?)

No.

-How about 2 retrograde planets exchanging houses, could this be construed as a VRY, analogous to two dusthana lords exchanging houses.

I don't know. I can guess that it brings abnormal changes in life as exchanges always do.

Do these principles apply to the nodes too? Or only to planets.

They apply only to planets. While the nodes aspect the preceding signs their behavior is completely different to that of planets, Rahu amplifies the result of a planet through corruption of its signficiations where as Ketu reduces those significations and gives only negligible results.

Regards

[tanmish]

Hello -

One more hypothetical question, in keeping with the spirit of this discussion:

What about a retrograde Malefic, as lord of one Dusthana, goes into another Dusthana? VRY or no? Bad or good?

Lets say if malefic Mars or Saturn are lording 6th house and they end up in 8th house, retrograde.

TIA!

[music_man]

Very enlightening.

Do you know any chart that you could share with us for basic illustration purpose or should we try to find a famous/in famous person's chart?
If anyone knows such charts with verifiable life events, with may be atleast 3 RPs, please share.

I understand it is a very subjective matter open to interpretations.

Few more Qs for discussion:

- Would a RP deny a Dhana yoga that it promised, for it being in a money house, like 2nd house.Or a Raja Yoga,for example a Kendra lord in a trikona.
Asking this because we learnt that it destroys the signification of the sign it is situated in, but its natural significations are still intact. But the sign it is in needs to be happy to participate in the Raja Yoga?

- If the positive signification of the sign is destroyed, it possibly implies that the conjunct planets are affected? For example: Mercury was in a friends house with retrograde venus conjunct. But that house has become a very hostile environment, like a dushthana ,and Mercury starts to suffer?

- I read that RPs have more Cheshtabala.What side effect can that have? Does it just make it stronger to promote its natural significations?

Few things I read elsewhere, and paraphrasing (not verified).Do comment on these too:

- Since RPs could be on the fence(cusp)of two signs, they have affinity to tread into Gandantha(bad) degrees, and we have to pay special attention to this in making a prediction.

- RPs tend to blurr the modalities of time and space, and involve karmic lessons, and you tend to be experiencing more than what this lifetime offers, with your focus turned inwards.Also there is a repetion of same/similar events, with the purpose of your soul learning a lesson( I have personally experienced this).

- RPs operate through multiple dimensions at the same time.Thus, the person may be either behind or ahead of himself in this life while still another part of self is not yet in this life at all. In addition to this lack of synchronization with chronological time, which in itself would be enough to upset most individuals, he also experiences on still another plane, a rather unique orientation in space.

- A planet hemmed between two RPs behaves as a RP.

- FYI,the sun and the moon have no retro motion, so that leaves 5 planets.

-Situated in their debilitation sign if owning good houses RPs produce good results, if owning bad houses they give bad results.

-Phaladeepika holds the view that a RP in its sign of debilitation is equal to its occupation of exaltation sign, and that exalted retrograde planets act as though they are debilitated.

-RPs having gained exceptional strength give thrice the term of life allotted to them.

- RPs do not always produce bad results, they impel reconsideration of functions associated with them.

- When planets are retrograde their power to do good or bad is enhanced, then benefic planets become more benevolent and malefic planets more malevolent.

- Saravali holding the view that exalted planets when retrograde have no strength, tells us that whereas retrograde benefics confer kingship, retrograde malefics give misery and aimless wandering.

-Uttara Kalamrita agrees with the view that retrograde motion is equal to exaltation, if a planet joins a RP its strength is reduced by half, if retrogression is in own sign of exaltation then the RP acts as though debilitated, if it is debilitated and also retrograde it acts as though it is exalted.

- A retrograde planet at the time of birth affects a person immensely by its qualities. If more than one planet is retrograde then the planet most advanced in a sign affects the most.

- An exalted planet when retrograde certainly loses its power to help but a debilitated planet which is retrograde becomes more helpful in many possible ways; in fact the debilitated and retrograde planet situated in its exaltation navamsa becomes very helpful.

- Natural benefics i.e. Moon, Mercury, Venus and Jupiter, if owning the 4th, the 7th or the 10th house and retrograde become more adverse and spoil the house they own, occupy and aspect.

- Natural malefics such as the Sun, Mars and Saturn, become more helpful. Retrograde Jupiter gives results of the bhava it occupied at birth, rest give the results of the bhava in which they began retrograding.

-RPs give the effect of the house previous to the one they are positioned in. For example, if Saturn is in Aquarius sign it will also give results of its occupation of Capricorn sign and therefore, it will then cast its 7th house-aspect on both the opposite signs, Leo and Cancer. Accordingly, during their retro motion Saturn, Mars and Jupiter, all three, in addition to their respective three special aspects gain a fourth aspect

- Agastaya states that retro motion, in general, intensifies the effects of planets for good or evil, according to their functional attributes and overall disposition at the time of birth, and a malefic planet, exalted and retrograde, and otherwise invested with yogas, can confer both Raja yoga during its Dasha or in the Dasha of a planet which happens to occupy the nakshatra of the malefic concerned, and also throw him out of power or inflict very adverse effects.

Please keep the questions rolling in.I assure you I will not answer them.

[elipsis]

Very enlightening.

Do you know any chart that you could share with us for basic illustration purpose or should we try to find a famous/in famous person's chart?

I am sure there are plenty of famous people with retrograde planets, you can apply these rules to their charts and check if it works out.

Few more Qs for discussion:

- Would a RP deny a Dhana yoga that it promised, for it being in a money house, like 2nd house.Or a Raja Yoga,for example a Kendra lord in a trikona.

Asking this because we learnt that it destroys the signification of the sign it is situated in, but its natural significations are still intact. But the sign it is in needs to be happy to participate in the Raja Yoga?

Signs are more important than bhavas themselves. If a sign is not conducive to the bhava then that bhava has a very limited role in the chart. The geography highlighted by the sign is far more important because where and how a planet finds a suitable role is linked to the geography. A dhana bhava in Pisces is as good as having two 12th house adjacent to the lagna. Keeping that in mind when a retrograde planet sits in dhana bhava it indicates that particular geography is inconvenient for that planet and therefore the bhava itself becomes weak.

- If the positive signification of the sign is destroyed, it possibly implies that the conjunct planets are affected? For example: Mercury was in a friends house with retrograde venus conjunct. But that house has become a very hostile environment, like a dushthana ,and Mercury starts to suffer?

Retrograde gives bad results no matter what conjunction or aspects. It's only by chance that they give good results when they come in contact with another planet in the preceding sign. Conjunctions may not work properly too - combinations such as Sun-Jupiter forms Jeevatma Yoga making the individual become aware of time, the knowledge of time resulting into timely actions and so on but when Jupiter is retrograde the yoga may not have any effect at all on the chart.

- I read that RPs have more Cheshtabala.What side effect can that have? Does it just make it stronger to promote its natural significations?

I don't take these into account anymore.

Few things I read elsewhere, and paraphrasing (not verified).Do comment on these too:

- Since RPs could be on the fence(cusp)of two signs, they have affinity to tread into Gandantha(bad) degrees, and we have to pay special attention to this in making a prediction.

Very good question, there are special areas in the chart where retrograde theories do not apply but they require very advanced skills in chart reading. For instance, a retrograde transiting ashlesha turns that planet into benefic. Also I remember one scripture mentioning the fact that retrograde Mercury in Uttaraphalguni doesn't behave like one. As for gandantha degrees you might have noticed the same degrees have sometimes worked in favor of the native in special circumstances but I haven't really evaluated retrograde planets in these degrees as I don't fully buy gandantha degrees.

- RPs tend to blurr the modalities of time and space, and involve karmic lessons, and you tend to be experiencing more than what this lifetime offers, with your focus turned inwards.Also there is a repetion of same/similar events, with the purpose of your soul learning a lesson( I have personally experienced this).

- RPs operate through multiple dimensions at the same time.Thus, the person may be either behind or ahead of himself in this life while still another part of self is not yet in this life at all. In addition to this lack of synchronization with chronological time, which in itself would be enough to upset most individuals, he also experiences on still another plane, a rather unique orientation in space.

While this is true I personally don't see it as karmic lessons. Life just a phenomenon which is neither a lesson nor a punishment, there aren't any cosmic norms of good and bad, nor there is any moral code of conduct etched in the heavens and yet there are many who add moral attributes to our actions. What was moral then is immoral now and vice-versa...because as society changes so does our code of conduct and so does astrological dictums and by applying those ancient dictums when we try to find meaning to life we'll lose ourselves in the present times. The basic truth is any action stretched over space and time will eventually resolve itself irrespective of it's space and time of initiation- creation, sustenance and death in the infinite loop of space and time.

- A planet hemmed between two RPs behaves as a RP.

-Phaladeepika holds the view that a RP in its sign of debilitation is equal to its occupation of exaltation sign, and that exalted retrograde planets act as though they are debilitated.

- Saravali holding the view that exalted planets when retrograde have no strength, tells us that whereas retrograde benefics confer kingship, retrograde malefics give misery and aimless wandering.

-Uttara Kalamrita agrees with the view that retrograde motion is equal to exaltation, if a planet joins a RP its strength is reduced by half, if retrogression is in own sign of exaltation then the RP acts as though debilitated, if it is debilitated and also retrograde it acts as though it is exalted.

-RPs give the effect of the house previous to the one they are positioned in. For example, if Saturn is in Aquarius sign it will also give results of its occupation of Capricorn sign and therefore, it will then cast its 7th house-aspect on both the opposite signs, Leo and Cancer. Accordingly, during their retro motion Saturn, Mars and Jupiter, all three, in addition to their respective three special aspects gain a fourth aspect

- Agastaya states that retro motion, in general, intensifies the effects of planets for good or evil, according to their functional attributes and overall disposition at the time of birth, and a malefic planet, exalted and retrograde, and otherwise invested with yogas, can confer both Raja yoga during its Dasha or in the Dasha of a planet which happens to occupy the nakshatra of the malefic concerned, and also throw him out of power or inflict very adverse effects.

I don't know...I only go by those points that are consistent in my analysis, I don't blindly accept any astrological norm just because some scripture or sage says so.

Regards

[abhishek]

You can test this on the transit chart if you want, when saturn turns retrograde and aspects natal Ketu most of us experience setbacks and trauma, this is mainly because saturn activates past life karmic balances which results in panic and confusion for most people as they can't really understand what is really going on with their life. Anything that is untimely results in panic so retrograde planets are untimely.

Dear elipsis ji,

you have hit the nail on the head. I am running jupiter- ketu dasha....when saturn turned retrograde in scorpio, he was aspecting my natal jupiter in taurus and ketu in leo.That time i lost my job in abroad and faced setbacks in every sphere of life. It was a roller coaster ride and still it continues but to a lesser extent.You are just awesome...please keep writing

regards

[Khoo Hock Leong]

Elipsis

The way you do astrology is rather unorthodox Like saying that the planet who is in neecha there is really nothing bad.

At every step of the way, you seem to be putting forth points that to me anyway is rather misleading. That was the reason I blocked you.

My friend who has Jupiter retrogade in the 10th in Aquarius and retrogade Saturn in the 9th with ketu and Moon there as well (all three planets in Capricorn) has a Taurus Ascendant. He is doing so well.

It is a matter of houses (placements and aspects of planets) actually and the nature of the planets (the houses they rule, are they natural malefics or natural benefics, in good or bad houses etc.). Retrogade planets are strong that much I can say. But you swept that all away.

This is going to be the last time, I am telling myself, that I am going to view your posts.

[elipsis]

Elipsis

The way you do astrology is rather unorthodox Like saying that the planet who is in neecha there is really nothing bad.

Neither neecha nor ucha is bad. Good and bad is a subjective thing, millions and millions of people are doing well with neecha planets including movie stars and billionaires. What was neecha then behaves like a textbook uchha for the society today, so try to understand the lifestyle and society structure 5000 years ago - the classics are particularly written to cater those ancient societal structures.

At every step of the way, you seem to be putting forth points that to me anyway is rather misleading. That was the reason I blocked you.

I have never to my knowledge misled anyone intentionally. While my methods may be unorthodox they are nothing short of truth. Also blocking and unblocking me is your problem (typical unstable cancer asc), I am just here to share what I know. It's your problem because normally people don't block other users just because they interfere with their topic, I never blocked you when I read your annoying topics like exaltation of Jupiter in Aquarius and some other silly stuff.

My friend who has Jupiter retrogade in the 10th in Aquarius and retrogade Saturn in the 9th with ketu and Moon there as well (all three planets in Capricorn) has a Taurus Ascendant. He is doing so well.

It is a matter of houses (placements and aspects of planets) actually and the nature of the planets (the houses they rule, are they natural malefics or natural benefics, in good or bad houses etc.). Retrogade planets are strong that much I can say. But you swept that all away.

You make your point man, this is an open topic....nobody is stopping you from writing. Prove me wrong and write something useful as per the topic in question

This is going to be the last time, I am telling myself, that I am going to view your posts.

Your replies will be my retirement bonus.

Regards

[tanmish]

Dear Ellipsis-jee

Can you please respond to my query above - how does retrograde affect a potential VRY? And to begin with, how does a VRY even manifest itself, surely not in the conventional sense of a beneficial yoga/dasha, etc. right?

Thanks!

[elipsis]

VRY and NBRY usually gives gains at the expense of others' losses and it's very strong during the dasa of the yoga planet. So we can assume that when a planet is retrograde the yoga may not fully work.

[Caliber]

[quote]
It's not a text book malefic but according to my teacher a retrograde planet feels as if it is forced to give something that it doesn't want to, this constriction results into unpredictable behavior on part of the planet but there is sufficient literature that points to bad results in general. [/quote]

This is 90% true for me as benefic Retrograde Jupiter is in my Lagna and have suffered almost till 2010 during his Dasa. My RP Jupiter dasa was good only during JU-RA.

Male - 11.11.1964 - 17.20 - Guntur

[elipsis]

Jupiter and Sun are in nakshatra parivarthana making Jupiter dasa weak.

[verma]

Dear Elipsis Ji

I, too, am currently undergoing retrograde Ju MD which also is in Nakshatra parivartan with Sun. Have had very tough last few years. My Ju-Su is about to start . Just wondering if it is going to bring any improvement.

[elipsis]

Sun sub-period will be average. Watch out when Saturn transits over Ketu, pray to Goddess Durga.

Regards

[tanmish]

Hello Verma-jee

Just for clarification, are you undergoing Sade-Sati right now due to transit Saturn in Lagna Scorpio for 2.5 years? I am not disputing what Ellipsis said, mainly trying to see if Natal Saturn being in Shash yog, and Swagrahi in 4H of Aquarius will have the same effects as any other placed Saturn.

Also, I read somewhere that Saturn MD if it is 6th in sequence (as in your case) will be very beneficial. Doesn't mean it won't harm at all, since after 56 years of age Saturn is also Maraka to most natives.

Thanks.

[Caliber]

[quote="elipsis"]Jupiter and Sun are in nakshatra parivarthana making Jupiter dasa weak.[/quote]

Does it mean, Jupiter Retrograde did not damage? Is it only because of Sun Nakshatra, JU (R) dasa was weak?

[elipsis]

Retrograde causes sudden unpleasant changes every once in a while, where as a Parivathana can either cause positive or negative change for the native. The soul of a planet is the nakshatra along with its four padas (dharma, artha, kama and moksha) and the outer body (shareera) becomes the planet, the outer body is the latent force which is yet to evolve where as the inner soul is already evolved. So when there is a nakshatra parivarthana there will be a change of heart regarding many aspects of life.

[verma]

Sun sub-period will be average. Watch out when Saturn transits over Ketu, pray to Goddess Durga.

Regards

Thanks Elipsis Ji. When will Saturn transit over Ketu? Do you mean during the last phase of my Sadhe Sati?

Thanks

[verma]

Hello Verma-jee

Just for clarification, are you undergoing Sade-Sati right now due to transit Saturn in Lagna Scorpio for 2.5 years? I am not disputing what Ellipsis said, mainly trying to see if Natal Saturn being in Shash yog, and Swagrahi in 4H of Aquarius will have the same effects as any other placed Saturn.

Also, I read somewhere that Saturn MD if it is 6th in sequence (as in your case) will be very beneficial. Doesn't mean it won't harm at all, since after 56 years of age Saturn is also Maraka to most natives.

Thanks.

Thanks Tanmish. I am indeed undergoing Sadhe Sati right now. What do you think with regards to my profession and family life?

[tanmish]

There's no connection between your 8H and 10H lords, so that factor is ruled out. Your 8H lord Mercury is in fact good for you and well-placed in Lagna. 10H lord Sun is in 12th house of losses so job-related expenses may be there.

A bigger concern is Saturn now in the Lagna, casting 89% negative aspect (10th) on your 10H of professional livelihood. It could be that this might cause delays in your work, office matters, promotions, etc. Saturn is a known trouble-maker and Sade-Sati is compounded by the fact that Saturn is in Dhanishta nakshatra (Mars) plus the 10H is that of his enemy Sun. The Sun is OK in Vishakha, Jupiter's nakshatra, albeit in 12H of losses. So temporarily at least, 3 malefics are in kendras - natal (4H) and transit (1H) Saturn with natal Mars (10H), plus 8H significations of Mercury to the lagna.

So overall this period will be stressful and turbulent. What are you finding in your work life and otherwise? As pointed out by Ellipsis, the move to 2H over natal Ketu/Moon will be more stressful for which you may want to prepare and go for remedial help. Do take care that work problems do not impact family, for which the potential is there.

Please note that I'm a learner, so not much by way of inference or analysis. I'm only stating what is visually evident.

TM

[verma]

There's no connection between your 8H and 10H lords, so that factor is ruled out. TM

Thanks, Tanmish, for your efforts. Which factor have you ruled out, I am not sure?

Further, I understand your logic of Sat aspect on 10th house but my problems have been ongoing since last 4 years, when Saturn was elsewhere.

Thanks
Verma

[Shivarajjj]

Hi i have retrograde Saturn in second house of Aquarius in dhansihta what are the effects my dob is 16/08/1993
Time 05.25 pm and location Hosur

[zayanth]

I have 3 retrograde planets (Mercury/Jupiter/Mars) in my horoscope according to my time of birth ;

14 Oct 1988 ; 17.05 ; Madurai India ; Male

I have completed my Mercury dasa before a year.
Mercury is my 7th lord, exalated and Retrograded.
Can someone guess/say what could had happened

Thanks in advance