Somewhere in the Gita, Krishna says that "I am trikaala jnani", that means he knows what happened, whats happening and what will happen in future. Bhagwan Buddha also says the same thing. That means if we have freewill these people would not have known the future. That means there is no freewill!
Regards
Freewill Vs Fate
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Hi Violet,
Yes, of course, Lord Krishna is giving them the result of their karmas, but did they have a choice about their karmas? That is the biggest question. Did it take an effort on the part of the Pandavas to be good?—they were born with good nature, and even if they wanted to, they wouldn’t have been able to do anything bad. Same with the Kauravas—they were born with bad nature. Expecting Duryodhana to become good if he tried is like thinking that Yudhisthira could do something immoral if he tried. They all did their karmas based on the personalities they were born with, so obviously the karma they did were predestined, isn’t it? You can’t expect a lion to meow, even if it tries its utmost with its free will, just like you can’t expect a cat to roar like a lion. You can’t expect a deer to have the aggression that a lion is born with, just like you can’t expect a lion to be so meek, like a deer. They are doing just as per their nature. It’s the same with human beings.
Coming to suffering the result of smoking cigarettes, do we have a choice whether we choose to smoke cigarettes or not? I don’t think so. Some people have a tendency to go for some addiction, and some don’t. I tried smoking and found it so disgusting that I didn’t go ahead with it and same with drinking. I tried it few times, and I didn’t like it, so I stopped that also. So did I put extra effort to not indulge in those addictions? I naturally didn’t feel inclined to them, and even though I tried, I left. And there are some people, who are chain smokers and drinks like a fish, and how much they try to stop, they can’t. And at the end of the day I will stay healthy for not indulging in a bad habit, and they will get sick due to indulging in it, though no credit should come to me as I didn’t need to make any effort to stay away from those addictions when all their efforts to curb it were in vain. So is it fair to say that we have a choice? I don’t think we have a choice. The karmas we do are as much predestined as the results we get of it, which is why I always say, it is all God’s play from the beginning to the end.
I see Gita the way you see it. But those lines, which I had quoted, had attracted my attention, too, in the book because whenever I read a spiritual book, I always keep an eye for lines, which gives a hint on predestined destiny.
I think, if I am not wrong, the lines after the ones you have quoted, where Krishna talks about his doing karma, is he says that as ordinary people follows people in high position (like kings), so he is setting an example for them. That’s the purpose behind his doing karma, that is, he is being a role model for society and not because he can’t be free of karma (as because there are exalted saints, who don’t do any karma being only absorbed in God contemplation all the time).
But then, I think I am not sure I got your point. You mean to say that we should find purpose in life, or we shouldn't? I feel we should try to find some purpose in life, even if it's not there, so that we can give some meaning to our lives. Even a saint has a purpose... to attain salvation, which is why he practises spirituality. So everyone ends up finding a purpose anyway I think. That's natural.
Yes, of course, Lord Krishna is giving them the result of their karmas, but did they have a choice about their karmas? That is the biggest question. Did it take an effort on the part of the Pandavas to be good?—they were born with good nature, and even if they wanted to, they wouldn’t have been able to do anything bad. Same with the Kauravas—they were born with bad nature. Expecting Duryodhana to become good if he tried is like thinking that Yudhisthira could do something immoral if he tried. They all did their karmas based on the personalities they were born with, so obviously the karma they did were predestined, isn’t it? You can’t expect a lion to meow, even if it tries its utmost with its free will, just like you can’t expect a cat to roar like a lion. You can’t expect a deer to have the aggression that a lion is born with, just like you can’t expect a lion to be so meek, like a deer. They are doing just as per their nature. It’s the same with human beings.
Coming to suffering the result of smoking cigarettes, do we have a choice whether we choose to smoke cigarettes or not? I don’t think so. Some people have a tendency to go for some addiction, and some don’t. I tried smoking and found it so disgusting that I didn’t go ahead with it and same with drinking. I tried it few times, and I didn’t like it, so I stopped that also. So did I put extra effort to not indulge in those addictions? I naturally didn’t feel inclined to them, and even though I tried, I left. And there are some people, who are chain smokers and drinks like a fish, and how much they try to stop, they can’t. And at the end of the day I will stay healthy for not indulging in a bad habit, and they will get sick due to indulging in it, though no credit should come to me as I didn’t need to make any effort to stay away from those addictions when all their efforts to curb it were in vain. So is it fair to say that we have a choice? I don’t think we have a choice. The karmas we do are as much predestined as the results we get of it, which is why I always say, it is all God’s play from the beginning to the end.
I see Gita the way you see it. But those lines, which I had quoted, had attracted my attention, too, in the book because whenever I read a spiritual book, I always keep an eye for lines, which gives a hint on predestined destiny.
I think, if I am not wrong, the lines after the ones you have quoted, where Krishna talks about his doing karma, is he says that as ordinary people follows people in high position (like kings), so he is setting an example for them. That’s the purpose behind his doing karma, that is, he is being a role model for society and not because he can’t be free of karma (as because there are exalted saints, who don’t do any karma being only absorbed in God contemplation all the time).
But then, I think I am not sure I got your point. You mean to say that we should find purpose in life, or we shouldn't? I feel we should try to find some purpose in life, even if it's not there, so that we can give some meaning to our lives. Even a saint has a purpose... to attain salvation, which is why he practises spirituality. So everyone ends up finding a purpose anyway I think. That's natural.
Last edited by basab14 on 19 Dec 2013, edited 1 time in total.
"Go thou and follow Him, who was born and gave His life for others five hundred times before He attained the vision of the Buddha!" -- Swami Vivekananda
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VioletTwilight
- Frequent Contributor
- Posts: 489
- Joined: 14 Nov 2012
Dear basab,
The point is not that some have things easy and some have it difficult. The point is, can the person do something that is difficult for them by their own free will ?
Some can't give up smoking, I can't give up milk, but if it turns out I shouldn't have milk products. Then it is my freewill to abstain from it or to continue with it. The karma is that my favourite thing causes trouble to my body, the freewill is that I endure that hardship without turning to sugar water or soda or stimulants or getting mad at other people when they enjoy ice cream since I can't have milk products. I am not saying I am the saint who is being peaceful doing this, but it is my free will to fight my karma of being born with love of milk. When I fail (many times I do), I try to strengthen my free will and not do it many more times instead of giving it up as predestined that I should love milk. See the difference about where free will is coming?
It is also possible that "will power" is destined. But we are not talking about "success" or "failure" of fighting addiction. Instead, it is the struggle within yourself to resist, the way a child falls down again and again and yet tries to walk.
It is that slow torture that you do to yourself to go against your previous vasanas is the free will. Things coming easy for you isn't free will. That is the nature acquired by previous karmas. You can say it as a way of burning your karmas by yourself instead of waiting for them to catch up with you.
I know that it sounds strange that I am saying we shouldn't look for purpose of life. It makes sense for me but I don't suppose it does for everyone. Their karmas may guide them to a different direction.
Thanks very much for the discussion and taking time to write. It motivates me to check in once a day and think, even though it feels like I have absolutely zero time or energy to turn on the computer.
Best regards,
Violet
The point is not that some have things easy and some have it difficult. The point is, can the person do something that is difficult for them by their own free will ?
Some can't give up smoking, I can't give up milk, but if it turns out I shouldn't have milk products. Then it is my freewill to abstain from it or to continue with it. The karma is that my favourite thing causes trouble to my body, the freewill is that I endure that hardship without turning to sugar water or soda or stimulants or getting mad at other people when they enjoy ice cream since I can't have milk products. I am not saying I am the saint who is being peaceful doing this, but it is my free will to fight my karma of being born with love of milk. When I fail (many times I do), I try to strengthen my free will and not do it many more times instead of giving it up as predestined that I should love milk. See the difference about where free will is coming?
It is also possible that "will power" is destined. But we are not talking about "success" or "failure" of fighting addiction. Instead, it is the struggle within yourself to resist, the way a child falls down again and again and yet tries to walk.
It is that slow torture that you do to yourself to go against your previous vasanas is the free will. Things coming easy for you isn't free will. That is the nature acquired by previous karmas. You can say it as a way of burning your karmas by yourself instead of waiting for them to catch up with you.
I know that it sounds strange that I am saying we shouldn't look for purpose of life. It makes sense for me but I don't suppose it does for everyone. Their karmas may guide them to a different direction.
Thanks very much for the discussion and taking time to write. It motivates me to check in once a day and think, even though it feels like I have absolutely zero time or energy to turn on the computer.
Best regards,
Violet
A nice practical approach VioletTwilight ji. It well aligns with Basab ji's signature line 
If everyone's freewill is made of discipline, clarity and strength probably God would provide us with much more liberty and power of execution, but since kali yuga lacks these, I guess, destiny has a upper hand.
I am a junior member here but read a lot of posts for learnings. I find your analysis and interpretations to be very down to earth, practical and very engaging even for the novice readers. I find them interesting - always a practical approach.
I am very much in a situation similar to what you described above. I am living in a city with brutal freezing winter and if I dont feel the sunshine/sun, I am very prone to depression and lack of confidence (which I realized recently as rootcause for my problems). Since I dont have an option, I trying to fight my depressive mood and remain confident. How I perceive my situation is, my problems/weaknesses could be from karmas, but the realization and determination is His blessing (a chance He gives me), courage to fight is Him. Whether I would gain control over and win is destiny, but I am sure I could because I believe He is my strength to fight it.
I believe in surrendering
If everyone's freewill is made of discipline, clarity and strength probably God would provide us with much more liberty and power of execution, but since kali yuga lacks these, I guess, destiny has a upper hand.I am a junior member here but read a lot of posts for learnings. I find your analysis and interpretations to be very down to earth, practical and very engaging even for the novice readers. I find them interesting - always a practical approach.
I am very much in a situation similar to what you described above. I am living in a city with brutal freezing winter and if I dont feel the sunshine/sun, I am very prone to depression and lack of confidence (which I realized recently as rootcause for my problems). Since I dont have an option, I trying to fight my depressive mood and remain confident. How I perceive my situation is, my problems/weaknesses could be from karmas, but the realization and determination is His blessing (a chance He gives me), courage to fight is Him. Whether I would gain control over and win is destiny, but I am sure I could because I believe He is my strength to fight it.
I believe in surrendering
Maataa Raamo matpithaa Ramachandra-ha |
Swamee Raamo matsakhaa Ramachandra-ha |
Sarvaswam me RamachandrO dayaalu |
Naanyam jaane naiva jaane na jaane ||
Shree raamachandra charaNau sharaNampradhye ||
Swamee Raamo matsakhaa Ramachandra-ha |
Sarvaswam me RamachandrO dayaalu |
Naanyam jaane naiva jaane na jaane ||
Shree raamachandra charaNau sharaNampradhye ||
Hello Violet,
There is a point in what you have said that trying to do something which is difficult for a person to do is his free will. But it’s not that simple, I think. I will tell you about it as I have thought on it, too.
Coming to the example you have given, I am not sure it’s a case of free will. If a person loves eating something and is asked not to have it due to medical reasons and because of that the person forces himself with his will power to stay away from it, I don’t think it’s free will, but will power generated out of compulsion. "Use your will power and stay away from a certain type of food, or else, you get sick"—where is the freedom of choice there? So that is not free will, I feel. In the situation, you are not left with a choice, other than surrendering to your fate, as otherwise, the consequence will be not to your liking. You have to use your will power then out of compulsion, not because you choose to. And free will means it’s your choice to use your will power, whichever way you want to.
If you think deeply, when we are striving hard to get something, even though there are obstacles coming our way, we very proudly say that we are using our free will, but how much freedom is there in that will of ours at that time? Aren’t we all slaves of our senses? Aren’t all our efforts put to acquire things, which will sate our senses? So aren’t we just doing things as per the dictates of our senses? And if we are doing that—if we are slaves of our senses—then how can we have the freedom of choice? Can a slave have freedom of choice? It does what its master commands it to do—in our case our masters are our senses, who gives us desires, and we try to fulfill those desires, like obedient servants. That’s what we are—nothing better than slaves, and we talk about free will!
Now let us come to those, who are using free will in the true sense. It’s the saints. They keep themselves away from all worldly pleasures by their own free will. Their senses tempt them all the time to enjoy the pleasures of the world, and even though they can, they, by their determination, stay away from them and contemplate on God instead. Now, are their will free, either? That’s a point to ponder on. Why the saints stay away from worldly pleasures? Why such a thought come in them, and not in everyone of us? Why some people bother about the message of Gita, while the rest doesn’t? It’s because the planets compel each of us to think in a certain way. Even the saints are not free from the effect of the planets. If you check their charts, you will see there are spiritual combinations in them, which make them realize the meaninglessness of this world and direct their whole energy in finding God. So in their cases they are using their will force, too, on the dictate of the planets and not as per their own choice.
Now coming to worldly life and free will, some years back I had tried to test my free will, getting inspired by the saints. When I felt sad for some reason, I immediately detached myself from that feeling; when I felt disappointed, again I detached myself from that feeling, so it was using of free will. Instead of reacting to the situation as destiny wanted me to, I reacted differently, and I saw the result of it, too, as my destiny, I felt, changed in small ways. So, I feel, when you use your free will and react differently from how you normally would that will have an effect on your future, and I was in that kind of mindset for an year or two, after which my planetary sub-period changed, and I saw that even though I knew it, and understood it, I couldn’t control my mind that well anymore. I again started reacting to situations, like a normal person does, and then, I realized when and how much one will use his will force will also be decided by destiny, and when destiny decides when and how much you will use your will force, then it is will power definitely, but that will is not free because it is under the control of destiny.
I am not saying at all that it is strange that one should not have a purpose in life. In fact even I don’t have a purpose in life. I am a completely aimless person. I don’t plan anything. I am just going as per the flow, having surrendered completely to God, and His will. The difference between you and me is, you feel it is an illusion, having a purpose in life, whereas for me, I don’t believe in planning and have not discovered the meaning of my life, if there is any at all, and not trying to find it either, so I don’t have a purpose in life that way. So we all have a different way of leading our lives, and there is nothing strange in it.
I am enjoying the discussion, too, and nice of you, too, to take out time from your busy schedule in replying to my posts. I appreciate it very much.
There is a point in what you have said that trying to do something which is difficult for a person to do is his free will. But it’s not that simple, I think. I will tell you about it as I have thought on it, too.
Coming to the example you have given, I am not sure it’s a case of free will. If a person loves eating something and is asked not to have it due to medical reasons and because of that the person forces himself with his will power to stay away from it, I don’t think it’s free will, but will power generated out of compulsion. "Use your will power and stay away from a certain type of food, or else, you get sick"—where is the freedom of choice there? So that is not free will, I feel. In the situation, you are not left with a choice, other than surrendering to your fate, as otherwise, the consequence will be not to your liking. You have to use your will power then out of compulsion, not because you choose to. And free will means it’s your choice to use your will power, whichever way you want to.
If you think deeply, when we are striving hard to get something, even though there are obstacles coming our way, we very proudly say that we are using our free will, but how much freedom is there in that will of ours at that time? Aren’t we all slaves of our senses? Aren’t all our efforts put to acquire things, which will sate our senses? So aren’t we just doing things as per the dictates of our senses? And if we are doing that—if we are slaves of our senses—then how can we have the freedom of choice? Can a slave have freedom of choice? It does what its master commands it to do—in our case our masters are our senses, who gives us desires, and we try to fulfill those desires, like obedient servants. That’s what we are—nothing better than slaves, and we talk about free will!
Now let us come to those, who are using free will in the true sense. It’s the saints. They keep themselves away from all worldly pleasures by their own free will. Their senses tempt them all the time to enjoy the pleasures of the world, and even though they can, they, by their determination, stay away from them and contemplate on God instead. Now, are their will free, either? That’s a point to ponder on. Why the saints stay away from worldly pleasures? Why such a thought come in them, and not in everyone of us? Why some people bother about the message of Gita, while the rest doesn’t? It’s because the planets compel each of us to think in a certain way. Even the saints are not free from the effect of the planets. If you check their charts, you will see there are spiritual combinations in them, which make them realize the meaninglessness of this world and direct their whole energy in finding God. So in their cases they are using their will force, too, on the dictate of the planets and not as per their own choice.
Now coming to worldly life and free will, some years back I had tried to test my free will, getting inspired by the saints. When I felt sad for some reason, I immediately detached myself from that feeling; when I felt disappointed, again I detached myself from that feeling, so it was using of free will. Instead of reacting to the situation as destiny wanted me to, I reacted differently, and I saw the result of it, too, as my destiny, I felt, changed in small ways. So, I feel, when you use your free will and react differently from how you normally would that will have an effect on your future, and I was in that kind of mindset for an year or two, after which my planetary sub-period changed, and I saw that even though I knew it, and understood it, I couldn’t control my mind that well anymore. I again started reacting to situations, like a normal person does, and then, I realized when and how much one will use his will force will also be decided by destiny, and when destiny decides when and how much you will use your will force, then it is will power definitely, but that will is not free because it is under the control of destiny.
I am not saying at all that it is strange that one should not have a purpose in life. In fact even I don’t have a purpose in life. I am a completely aimless person. I don’t plan anything. I am just going as per the flow, having surrendered completely to God, and His will. The difference between you and me is, you feel it is an illusion, having a purpose in life, whereas for me, I don’t believe in planning and have not discovered the meaning of my life, if there is any at all, and not trying to find it either, so I don’t have a purpose in life that way. So we all have a different way of leading our lives, and there is nothing strange in it.
I am enjoying the discussion, too, and nice of you, too, to take out time from your busy schedule in replying to my posts. I appreciate it very much.
Last edited by basab14 on 20 Dec 2013, edited 6 times in total.
"Go thou and follow Him, who was born and gave His life for others five hundred times before He attained the vision of the Buddha!" -- Swami Vivekananda
Hi all,
IMO, no one can know if the thought arising in the mind is due to freewill or due to destiny. Both freewill and destiny exist. As all the people said in this thread, one should think as far as possible in the dharmic way (once again we do not know if it is destiny or freewill that allows this) and do the duties as The Gita says. No one can convince any one on this topic which is of interest to all.
IMO, no one can know if the thought arising in the mind is due to freewill or due to destiny. Both freewill and destiny exist. As all the people said in this thread, one should think as far as possible in the dharmic way (once again we do not know if it is destiny or freewill that allows this) and do the duties as The Gita says. No one can convince any one on this topic which is of interest to all.
Last edited by map on 19 Dec 2013, edited 1 time in total.
I believe, we are. We act according to our destiny framed for this life by own karmas. Because there is a destiny, we have saints/prophets who could predict our future including the actions that we might take under the assumption of freewill. We are mere actors in a movie called life, directed by Lord. Everyone is given a role that they wished for/capable of/deserve.map wrote:Ojas ji,
If your question is to me, then my answer is - we are not. I said both freewill and destiny exist. But we can not identify which of our actions and thoughts are because of freewill or destiny.
So because we know this now, we cannot cease our actions and be quiet. Knowing this might make one lazy enough to work, but the truth is, his mind would never cease to work. Mind always is restless and running after something even if it would know there is a destiny. Mind would always be after something influenced by maya. If we could really control our mind and organs and be real quiet, then we would ourselves become a saint breaking the illusion of maya.
For now, we just have to keep doing whatever we get to do in this life and do it well. That is why Bhagawat Gita says to concentrate on our efforts (and do our best) without having our mind dreaming about the results. IMO, this is because we have no control over outcome, we are capable of doing but not for deciding the outcome. Arjuna was asked to fight the war as his duty, but Krishna decided the outcome even before the war began. Arjuna was the instrument in carrying out the actions as directed by Lord. There lies the clue.
We cannot arrive at an answer because we are using our mind to comprehend something that is beyond the capabilities of our mind.
Thanks.
Last edited by vaglram on 20 Dec 2013, edited 1 time in total.
Maataa Raamo matpithaa Ramachandra-ha |
Swamee Raamo matsakhaa Ramachandra-ha |
Sarvaswam me RamachandrO dayaalu |
Naanyam jaane naiva jaane na jaane ||
Shree raamachandra charaNau sharaNampradhye ||
Swamee Raamo matsakhaa Ramachandra-ha |
Sarvaswam me RamachandrO dayaalu |
Naanyam jaane naiva jaane na jaane ||
Shree raamachandra charaNau sharaNampradhye ||
In our life, success are rewards for our good deeds/thoughts and failures/problems are repayment for our bad karmas. The illusion is about our deep desire in wanting to write the test TO SUCCEED.
Only if we could let go off that desire to succeed......
Only if we could let go off that desire to succeed......
Maataa Raamo matpithaa Ramachandra-ha |
Swamee Raamo matsakhaa Ramachandra-ha |
Sarvaswam me RamachandrO dayaalu |
Naanyam jaane naiva jaane na jaane ||
Shree raamachandra charaNau sharaNampradhye ||
Swamee Raamo matsakhaa Ramachandra-ha |
Sarvaswam me RamachandrO dayaalu |
Naanyam jaane naiva jaane na jaane ||
Shree raamachandra charaNau sharaNampradhye ||
basab ji
I invited myself in to this party, fate and freewill.
You are saying events are predestined, I am not saying you are wrong, but in these predestined events opportunities arises or freewill needs to be exercised.
I will cite example. as you are a spiritualist person I will quote Lord Brahma's lineage Suka brahma rishi.
Suka rishi practised all meditations and yogic proccesses to give up all desires in his life but still he could not able to achieve. Brahma rishi went to seek guidance from Universal guru, Lord Brahma adviced brahma rishi to go to Janakapuri kingdom and seek advice from King Janakar,Sita devi's father. Janakar also a rajarishi.
Janakar with nyanadristi came to know about Brahmarishi visit to his kingdom. Sukabrahma rishi once reached Janakpuri stood near the entrance gate and waited for King to come to receive him.
Guard came inside and informed about sage sukar's arrival,Janakar said o.k. Sukar waited near the gate almost for a day. Next day,Guard took brahma rishi to a room in place where beautiful girls were singing sensual songs and dance,guard asked brahmarishi to stay with them as long and said this was the message from Janakar. After a week, rajarishi called brahmarishi to his durbar and Janakar gave full respect to brahmarishi by washing his feet.Janakar inquired with brahma rishi is there any help from his side for fullfillment.
Sukabrahmar said his idea of coming here to seek advice from him how to liberate desires and he also why Lord Brahma chose you to impart me wisdom without saying a word.
Brahma predestined Janakar in this event, through free will of Brahmarishi i.e by keeping quiet, did not curse, did not had anger, meditated (core competency of Sukar), did not engage into relationship with females, was waiting patiently all the time and thus he got the advice indirectly from Janakar.
.....contd
I invited myself in to this party, fate and freewill.
You are saying events are predestined, I am not saying you are wrong, but in these predestined events opportunities arises or freewill needs to be exercised.
I will cite example. as you are a spiritualist person I will quote Lord Brahma's lineage Suka brahma rishi.
Suka rishi practised all meditations and yogic proccesses to give up all desires in his life but still he could not able to achieve. Brahma rishi went to seek guidance from Universal guru, Lord Brahma adviced brahma rishi to go to Janakapuri kingdom and seek advice from King Janakar,Sita devi's father. Janakar also a rajarishi.
Janakar with nyanadristi came to know about Brahmarishi visit to his kingdom. Sukabrahma rishi once reached Janakpuri stood near the entrance gate and waited for King to come to receive him.
Guard came inside and informed about sage sukar's arrival,Janakar said o.k. Sukar waited near the gate almost for a day. Next day,Guard took brahma rishi to a room in place where beautiful girls were singing sensual songs and dance,guard asked brahmarishi to stay with them as long and said this was the message from Janakar. After a week, rajarishi called brahmarishi to his durbar and Janakar gave full respect to brahmarishi by washing his feet.Janakar inquired with brahma rishi is there any help from his side for fullfillment.
Sukabrahmar said his idea of coming here to seek advice from him how to liberate desires and he also why Lord Brahma chose you to impart me wisdom without saying a word.
Brahma predestined Janakar in this event, through free will of Brahmarishi i.e by keeping quiet, did not curse, did not had anger, meditated (core competency of Sukar), did not engage into relationship with females, was waiting patiently all the time and thus he got the advice indirectly from Janakar.
.....contd
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CherryBlossom
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Last edited by CherryBlossom on 02 Dec 2015, edited 1 time in total.
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karthik1984
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CherryBlossom wrote:
We are programmed to act according to our karma as well as to Brahman's leela, but our own karma depends on our freewill. We have the choice to perform many actions, but whether we perform dharmic or adharmic actions corresponds to the future karma of our soul.
So yes, our fate is prewritten by Bhagwan based on our past karma, and our current freewill will decide the karma and fate of our future.
If you are interested in Indian Music, you must read this Article. This is a clear example of destiny
http://www.rediff.com/movies/slide-show ... 130928.htm
basab ji
In the previous example how Guru's advice changes the destiny by exercising learning through freewill... I had cited.
Now I will quote present example how Guru's blessings changes the fate by just seeking blessings.
Jagadguru Shankaracharya of Kanchipuram mutt,devotees call His Holiness as Walking God or Periyaval means respected senior.
During blessing hours from Periyaval,devotees stand in queue and seek blessings from the hand of His Holiness through thirth prasadam and akshatai and fruits.As usual, devotees standing in line will chat with other devotee in line about their and seek blessings from Periyaval to come out of the problem.In such chats, a devotee telling other devotee that his son has been lost for more than four mnths old, he has approached various alternatives like police, missing notice,jyothis referrals uet they could not able to trace his son,lastly now here to seek from Paramacharyal for the solution.Other devotee who was listening said periyaval will bless you but may not able to tell you the location of boy to be traced. The devotee had the darshan of Guru, he narrated about his lost son episode to Periyavar,His Holiness offered thortham to devotee and kept from his Holiness Hand Vibuti and archanad flower and fruits on a stotram book. His Holiness asked devotee to take the prasad from stotram book.Devotee picked up the prasad from the book, he requested a mutt person to give a bit of paper to him so that he can pack the prasad in the newspaper and as well vibuti.The mutt person tore a paper and gave it to the devotee.
After 10days or so, the devotee communicated to another devotee who was standing in the periyavar darshan line, he said my son is back with me and it is because of anugraham of Periyaval.He said, he had folded prasad in the paper given by the mutt person, at home he opened vibuti folded paper and applied on his forehead and offered to his wife.The remaining vibuti he was puiting inside vibuti box, he could see a photograph of his son in that newspaper and he read full article in that paper saying this photograph of a small kid the person has found him in a lonely place,parents of this small boy are requested to meet below person at this address where boy is s
In the previous example how Guru's advice changes the destiny by exercising learning through freewill... I had cited.
Now I will quote present example how Guru's blessings changes the fate by just seeking blessings.
Jagadguru Shankaracharya of Kanchipuram mutt,devotees call His Holiness as Walking God or Periyaval means respected senior.
During blessing hours from Periyaval,devotees stand in queue and seek blessings from the hand of His Holiness through thirth prasadam and akshatai and fruits.As usual, devotees standing in line will chat with other devotee in line about their and seek blessings from Periyaval to come out of the problem.In such chats, a devotee telling other devotee that his son has been lost for more than four mnths old, he has approached various alternatives like police, missing notice,jyothis referrals uet they could not able to trace his son,lastly now here to seek from Paramacharyal for the solution.Other devotee who was listening said periyaval will bless you but may not able to tell you the location of boy to be traced. The devotee had the darshan of Guru, he narrated about his lost son episode to Periyavar,His Holiness offered thortham to devotee and kept from his Holiness Hand Vibuti and archanad flower and fruits on a stotram book. His Holiness asked devotee to take the prasad from stotram book.Devotee picked up the prasad from the book, he requested a mutt person to give a bit of paper to him so that he can pack the prasad in the newspaper and as well vibuti.The mutt person tore a paper and gave it to the devotee.
After 10days or so, the devotee communicated to another devotee who was standing in the periyavar darshan line, he said my son is back with me and it is because of anugraham of Periyaval.He said, he had folded prasad in the paper given by the mutt person, at home he opened vibuti folded paper and applied on his forehead and offered to his wife.The remaining vibuti he was puiting inside vibuti box, he could see a photograph of his son in that newspaper and he read full article in that paper saying this photograph of a small kid the person has found him in a lonely place,parents of this small boy are requested to meet below person at this address where boy is s
contd.....
son is staying. The devotee said Periyaval usuakky offers prasad on the hands for him Periyaval kept prasad on stotram book.
It was destined for devotee. ...Son disappearance, free will to visit Periyaval to get blessings to change the course of destiny
...contd
son is staying. The devotee said Periyaval usuakky offers prasad on the hands for him Periyaval kept prasad on stotram book.
It was destined for devotee. ...Son disappearance, free will to visit Periyaval to get blessings to change the course of destiny
...contd
Beautifully said. We have the choice between Dharmic way/God's feet and maya/pleasure of this world. While we keep accruing our current karmas, what path we choose depends on purva janma vasana too. Hence there are people who fail to get out of that vasana and to realize the Supreme. When failures in materialistic world makes them frustrated, they then realize Supreme removing the vasana they have been carrying over.CherryBlossom wrote:We are programmed to act according to our karma as well as to Brahman's leela, but our own karma depends on our freewill. We have the choice to perform many actions, but whether we perform dharmic or adharmic actions corresponds to the future karma of our soul.Ojas wrote:Are we only meant to be karma-bots? That we are programmed to act according to our own pre-written code.
So yes, our fate is prewritten by Bhagwan based on our past karma, and our current freewill will decide the karma and fate of our future.
However, surrending our karmas to Lord and remaining beyond the maya of accumulation is the ultimate path to reach Him.
Maataa Raamo matpithaa Ramachandra-ha |
Swamee Raamo matsakhaa Ramachandra-ha |
Sarvaswam me RamachandrO dayaalu |
Naanyam jaane naiva jaane na jaane ||
Shree raamachandra charaNau sharaNampradhye ||
Swamee Raamo matsakhaa Ramachandra-ha |
Sarvaswam me RamachandrO dayaalu |
Naanyam jaane naiva jaane na jaane ||
Shree raamachandra charaNau sharaNampradhye ||
What if destiny of that person is to meet Periyaval after such an incident? Destiny for "realization to seek His feet" is only after an emotional turbulence?rjnth wrote:contd.....
son is staying. The devotee said Periyaval usuakky offers prasad on the hands for him Periyaval kept prasad on stotram book.
It was destined for devotee. ...Son disappearance, free will to visit Periyaval to get blessings to change the course of destiny
...contd
We never know, certain incidents could be destined as catalysts for the main one to happen - the big picture.
Maataa Raamo matpithaa Ramachandra-ha |
Swamee Raamo matsakhaa Ramachandra-ha |
Sarvaswam me RamachandrO dayaalu |
Naanyam jaane naiva jaane na jaane ||
Shree raamachandra charaNau sharaNampradhye ||
Swamee Raamo matsakhaa Ramachandra-ha |
Sarvaswam me RamachandrO dayaalu |
Naanyam jaane naiva jaane na jaane ||
Shree raamachandra charaNau sharaNampradhye ||
-
tmr
A child asked God "If everything is already written in our destiny then why should I pray?"
God smiled and replied "May be in few places I write 'As you wish' !! "
I hope this answers most of the questions. Free will is doing as you wish.
TMR
God smiled and replied "May be in few places I write 'As you wish' !! "
I hope this answers most of the questions. Free will is doing as you wish.
TMR
basabji
The idea of destiny or meaning of it we have to understand.
In Ramayan,Ravanan strong Shiv Bhakt and Brahman, a great astrologer himself was a ahaankar.He was a great veena recitalist and he had mesmerised Lord Shiv with his samaveda chanting to Him. samaveda priyan.
But his freewill, of kidnapping mata Sita was the adharmic karma. Ravan was destined to meet his death through the avatar of Lord Vishnu and not the other way.In this avatar, Lord Ram through Lord Hanuman communicated Ravan saying hand over Sitadevi and in bargain I will forgive you and live with Mandodari, but Ravan accepted fate through his own freewill.
Fate can be changed by exercising the freewill which advocated by Parents,Guru, and God himself... through good Karmas as per Dharmasastra.... highlighted with three e.gs... viz Parent/guru,guru,and God.
The idea of destiny or meaning of it we have to understand.
In Ramayan,Ravanan strong Shiv Bhakt and Brahman, a great astrologer himself was a ahaankar.He was a great veena recitalist and he had mesmerised Lord Shiv with his samaveda chanting to Him. samaveda priyan.
But his freewill, of kidnapping mata Sita was the adharmic karma. Ravan was destined to meet his death through the avatar of Lord Vishnu and not the other way.In this avatar, Lord Ram through Lord Hanuman communicated Ravan saying hand over Sitadevi and in bargain I will forgive you and live with Mandodari, but Ravan accepted fate through his own freewill.
Fate can be changed by exercising the freewill which advocated by Parents,Guru, and God himself... through good Karmas as per Dharmasastra.... highlighted with three e.gs... viz Parent/guru,guru,and God.
But, if you are already acting as per your previous karma then the future karma will play out per the current actions.CherryBlossom wrote:We are programmed to act according to our karma as well as to Brahman's leela, but our own karma depends on our freewill. We have the choice to perform many actions, but whether we perform dharmic or adharmic actions corresponds to the future karma of our soul.Ojas wrote:Are we only meant to be karma-bots? That we are programmed to act according to our own pre-written code.
So yes, our fate is prewritten by Bhagwan based on our past karma, and our current freewill will decide the karma and fate of our future.
Previous karma = Present bhagya = leading to current karma = future Bhagya.
In this cyclical, interlinked flow chart is the unknown component, that is Divine Grace.
Rjnth,
I have no problem if you wish to believe in free will. Each and every person can believe in what they wish to.
My point is very simple: if I put a lot of effort in life and fight every obstacle that come my way, even then I will believe it was my destiny which made me put the effort. If God helps me or some saint helps me, I will believe I was destined to get that help. I am not saying I am right, but that is what I believe in. And that is something Sri Ramakrishna had also said: even a leaf can't move if God doesn't will it.
A couple of quotes about predestined destiny:
'Whatever belongs to a man he will get. It was ready for him before he was born.' -- Swami Vivekananda
'It is all decided beforehand by God what each one shall receive.' -- Sri Ramakrishna
P.S. I have read Ramayana, Mahabharata, Gita, stories from Bhagavad Purana and many books on saints and their teachings and after reading them what I understood was everything is predestined.
I have no problem if you wish to believe in free will. Each and every person can believe in what they wish to.
My point is very simple: if I put a lot of effort in life and fight every obstacle that come my way, even then I will believe it was my destiny which made me put the effort. If God helps me or some saint helps me, I will believe I was destined to get that help. I am not saying I am right, but that is what I believe in. And that is something Sri Ramakrishna had also said: even a leaf can't move if God doesn't will it.
A couple of quotes about predestined destiny:
'Whatever belongs to a man he will get. It was ready for him before he was born.' -- Swami Vivekananda
'It is all decided beforehand by God what each one shall receive.' -- Sri Ramakrishna
P.S. I have read Ramayana, Mahabharata, Gita, stories from Bhagavad Purana and many books on saints and their teachings and after reading them what I understood was everything is predestined.
"Go thou and follow Him, who was born and gave His life for others five hundred times before He attained the vision of the Buddha!" -- Swami Vivekananda
And what it takes for God to will it is greater than our capacity to truly understand, given the Illusory nature of mind and ego.basab14 wrote:
And that is something Sri Ramakrishna had also said: even a leaf can't move if God doesn't will it.
I only said what I believe in. Others can believe what they wish to. I will always give credit for all my efforts to God, others can take the credit themselves. That's all the difference there is between one who believes in destiny and one who believes in free will. Nothing else.Ojas wrote:And what it takes for God to will it is greater than our capacity to truly understand, given the Illusory nature of mind and ego.
"Go thou and follow Him, who was born and gave His life for others five hundred times before He attained the vision of the Buddha!" -- Swami Vivekananda
I thought you just said it's your efforts that will earn you your destiny:basab14 wrote: I will always give credit for all my efforts to God,
in other words, how are you destined to get that help?basab14 wrote: If God helps me or some saint helps me, I will believe I was destined to get that help.
Again, Divine Grace.
