Freewill Vs Fate

[2002diksha]

Hello,
I know this topic is obsolete and unconventional. Not many would like to share their experience. but is there anyone who has fought fate and through sheer power of freewill has steered away negative influence of malefic combination. Has anyone fought with destiny and cleared negativity of chart through positive karma.
Reagrds

[2002diksha]

Can anyone give input?

[nir1983]

I remember the story of Adi shankaracharya invoking Goddess lakshmi in order to fight the poverty of a woman who has lend a small amla fruit to him while doing biksha. While Goddess lakshmi stated that its that lady's fate to live in poverty, Sankaracharya justifies her good deeds with the biksha that she made and once pleased goddess lakshmi granted riches instantly. Here Adi shankara as a little boy used his wise intellect (i assume a part of free will-because lets say someone else would have been in that scenario sure they say "alright whatever you said is right because you are goddess and you know all" and would have vanished). So I think a person who is very much evolved in his consciousness gets the free will to change certain things. Normal people has to fight a lot or have to accept the fate. Even going to detail IMHO a person who has purified his soul with the sacred fire is really a pure free will beyond all boundaries yet they respect the karma and will try to change only if its required or needed. Examples: Mahavatar Babaji,Saint vallalar,all nathas,all siddha purushas,many rishis and munivars(we very well know through history vashista,vishwamithra,jamadgani and many more).

[Dev]

One may still be able to minimize karma effects by performing yagna, doing daan in a large way, helping in a very great way the depressed - like handicapped, old aged, and so on.

[basab14]

I think everything is predestined and there is no scope for free will in this world. What we think to be free will is also not in reality free will. It is God’s play from beginning to end. Just like the actors in a movie don’t decide on their roles, we also don’t decide on our roles. We do as God makes us do. Yes, everything good or bad happens as per God’s will, I feel. Why God makes us do bad things, is like asking why movies have villains in them? For God, I believe, this world is a stage and we are the characters doing His bidding.

Now coming to why I think it is destiny and not free will. What does free will mean as per every one of us? It means putting efforts to achieve something. Now, I find this very funny that on one side while discussing astrology and the charts of people we talk about how the 3rd house of a person will decide how much effort he will put in life and again when discussing about free will we talk about efforts put by a person being as per his own wish. Now if the 3rd house of efforts decides the effort we are going to put and the strength or weakness of the 3rd house is not in our hands then how can we have a choice on the efforts we are going to put in life? It proves very simply that the amount of effort we are going to put doesn’t depend on us but on our birth charts.

We sometimes end up telling other people that they should not be lazy and instead should work hard and again while discussing astrology we start saying that Saturn should be checked to see how much hard work one will put. Now again do we decide on where Saturn will be placed in our chart? No, we don’t decide it, and if that planet which will decide our fate as to the amount of hard work we will put is not in our control then how can we have control over the amount of hard work we will put?

Now let us come to mindset. We sometimes end up saying, that attitude is everything. If a person has attitude problem how can he do anything in life and we end up giving lecture to that person and after that when we discuss astrology we start talking about how the Moon decides on our thinking pattern. So now again if the Moon whose placement is not in our control decides our thinking pattern then how can we expect to change our thinking pattern to something which will help us achieve something in life?

Next comes being good and bad. Is it a choice we make about being good or bad? Should we pat our backs that we are good? Yes we do that. We feel proud that we are principled and morally upright and good natured and kind and then again when we discuss astrology we say that Jupiter’s placement in a birth chart decides that and we are not deciding on the placement of Jupiter, right? So is it a choice we have about being good or bad? We would like to believe we have that choice, but we haven’t. It is once again the planets which decides who will walk the path of morality and who will walk the path of immorality.

Now this point will come to our minds of course why the planets are placed where they are placed in each person’s chart? It is because of the karmas we have done in our previous lives. So that means we do karma, isn’t it? That means we have free will isn’t it? Yes, that’s a point to ponder on, but still when we think deeply we realize that it is not so—that we don’t have free will. Because in every life we are born with a birth chart, dictating on how we will think, how we will act, and how we will lead every aspect of our lives. So if the planets decide all that then how and when do we get the chance to use our free will?

Now coming to remedies and doing prayers. We see so many times that people pray their hearts out in front of God and still nothing happens and sometimes people pray once just casually and miracles happen. Sometimes remedies are done and nothing happens and sometimes remedies gives magical results. So why this inconsistency when it comes the results of remedies? It is very simple: those whose charts promises help from remedies end up getting relief when remedies are done and those whose charts don't show it don't get that relief. So again it is the birth chart which decides that proving that nothing is in our hands.

And then we make that very smart statement: 'God helps those who helps themselves'. My question to this line is very simple: if I can help myself why will I need God's help at all? God will think this too that if the guy can help himself, he wouldn't be needing His help.

[2002diksha]

I would like to add a piece of advice. depending totally on astrology for fate and other related life issues can be very precarious. the reason behind this that astrology is too limited and it cannot reason with the world. go to a hospital and see things . there many are lying on bed. some die and some live their lives. can every illness be decided astrologically even the best of astrologers go to a doctor for cure. even if he , knows everything about Ayurveda and astrology , he will never go to them.at heart we know that astrology has its own limitations. we have the attitude , that if things don't work we just say that planet was bad or dasha was bad. if things works then we say it was fated to happen. there will be endless debate as to what preceded what. was it interned by God or we has done it by sheer action. the astrology is about mindset of people . but yes since it has survived for so many years , there has to be some truth in it. but today astrology fails to solve the multitude of problems that we face. in marriages also if the boy or girl is ill tempered then one should send to counselor and not astrologers. there astrology cannot help.astrology can give overall picture.that too it should be taken from very renowned astrologer.My own example I was advised that my marriage will not work. even in my cousins marriage was advised that marriage will not work but both were proved wrong over period of work. If a person does his duty then even God cannot prevent him from becoming what he hopes to become. today even bed ridden man has hope that's the marvel of modern science .
Best Regards

[missile]

Dear Basab, what you have said is 100 % right.

I would suggest people to go through a book written by an American psychologist Micheal Newton "The Journey of souls". Most of the questions gets cleared, we dont have free will, it appears that we have free will.

Regards

[basab14]

Diksha ji,

I have consulted more astrologers than anyone here, I guess, and they all have been wrong with their predictions for me. But does that mean astrology has limitations? No, I don’t think so—it simply means that astrologers have not been able to master the divine science called astrology, and so, they go wrong with their predictions. If a doctor can’t cure a patient will you question the correctness of medical science or point your finger at the doctor? And then, coming to the utility of astrology—just because we can’t utilize it in our daily lives, like we would like to, doesn’t mean that it is not correct. If that was so, then mathematics should also be called incorrect and can’t be depended upon because none of us use algebra and geometry and arithmetic in our daily lives. So the correctness of a subject is not decided upon by its utility in our daily lives.

Astrology is too complex a subject to be mastered by everyone. But the problem is everyone these days are becoming astrologers. Just like everyone can’t be a singer, or everyone can’t be an artist, the same way one has to be born with some aptitude for astrology to become an astrologer. If everyone wants to become an astrologer, it is not the fault of astrology; it is the fault of us humans, who things astrology is something very easy to learn.

But all said, I am definitely understanding your point and appreciating it, too. In fact I will advice people the same: to think practically, to not bother about their birth charts and do things that one should logically do, but then, that doesn't mean I will agree with this, too, that things are in our hands and astrology has limitations. Astrology is, I feel, hundred percent correct and everything is predestined, I feel, but then again, that should not stop us from thinking practically and taking our decisions with a logical frame of mind.

What I believe I can make clear by a line said by Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsha: "Do your duties in the world as if you were the doer, but knowing all the time that God alone is the Doer and you are the instrument."

[basab14]

Thank you, Missile. And thanks also for suggesting the book.

[2002diksha]

Basabji,
Even I believe in astrology. I dont think it has helped me but yes I do believe in astrology. I am also yet to find the correct predictions.
Regards

[basab14]

Diksha ji,

If anyone has bitterness about astrology, it is me. I have so much bitterness that I stopped studying astrology 4 years back after studying it for 3 years before that. I even swore that I woulf never check anyone's chart, but couldn't keep my promise as friends were very insistent when it came to asking for readings. Otherwise, I have cut down a lot when it comes to giving readings. So I understood what you meant when you wrote your previous post, and I agree with you completely, but the thing is it is not the fault of astrology, it's just that astrologers are not good enough to predict people's fate correctly.

[VioletTwilight]

If I may add a few words...

I wonder why fate and free will should be a dichotomy. Nothing is fixed (even the great cosmos, milky way and the Sun), and nothing is free (we can't become dolphins or dinosaurs by wishing).

What astrology and birth chart gives us is a potential. It is similar to what weather report tells us. If you see a large cyclone on the ocean from aerial view, there is going to be a storm. But, who is good enough (even with best satellites and tracking) to tell where exactly it crosses the shore or how it turns out. Sometimes, we miss it and sometime it is worse than what we thought. But, a few times we can get it exactly right.

Our jataka is like our DNA. There are lot of genes we inherit. Some gives us "risk" of different diseases, from heart attack, diabetes to cancer. That doesn't mean everybody (i.e, every child in that family) WILL get it. It is not 100%. You can fight it as much as you can, that is your free will. But you can't take out your DNA and wish to put in other gene without disease-risk. That is fate.

So, isn't free will in our hands as to see what we can do with what we have? Every graha and every placement have their good points and all those functions are needed in this world.

[basab14]

Violet,

I get your point. It does make sense what you have said. I thought that way too for sometime as to it is up to us as to how we react to a situation, which destiny has got us into, but isn't it fated too as to how we will react to that situation? From an individual's birth chart one can understand what kind of a personality he is, and how he will react to situations by seeing the placement of the planets, so it's kind of predestined, too, isn't it how one will react to a situation? That is what I tried to explain in one of my previous posts here that on one side while discussing astrology we talk about how a person is like nature wise as per his chart, and how he will deal with his life, and then, when discussing free will we say that it is our choice as to how we will react to a situation.

[VioletTwilight]

Violet,

I get your point. It does make sense what you have said. I thought that way too for sometime as to it is up to us as to how we react to a situation, which destiny has got us into, but isn't it fated to how we will react to that situation? From an individual's birth chart one can understand what kind of a personality he is, and how he will react to situations by seeing the placement of the planets, so it's kind of predestined, too, isn't it how one will react to a situation? That is what I tried to explain in my post that on one side while discussing astrology we talk about how a person is like nature wise as per his chart, how he deals with his life, and then when discussing free will we say that it is our choice as to how we react to a situation.

Dear basab14,

That is exactly what I tried to say.Our "karma" is not 100% fixed from the birth chart. For some, it is 50% but for others may it is 90%, but as we live our life, don't we accumulated more karmas?

What happens to them and where are we seeing them? Aren't people doing prasna saying that it reflects "birth+ up-to-now"?

That's why I gave analogy of genes. Many studies show "very high risk" of diabetes if both of your parents, grand parents, siblings have it. If you continue the same food habits, living style as you learned from your family, you will. You may think it is "fate". But, like every graha is calling us to do different things, the person has the "choice" or "free-will" to allow which graha they will pick to lead them. Then, that may lead them away from diabetes. That is "free-will" of avoiding diabetes.

No, I don't think it is destiny as to how we will react to the situation. That's why, I said every graha has two sides. Same Saturn can make you very strong in taking a lot of sorrow, or very mean at other people because you have seen sorrow and are afraid of it. Same Mars can make you very angry or very courageous and protective. Same Sun can make you generous and give out your last penny or make you as arrogant as acting like the center of the world.

Often, people will display both sides. Which side they pick most of the time, is the free-will, in my opinion.

Best regards,
Violet

[vaglram]

I am neither old enough to talk from experiences nor in knowledge, though I would like to share my two cents....

I agree with Basab ji and thanks for the quote from Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa teachings.

Fate as we consider is the result of our karmas. And Freewill - if we describe it as "I fought/choose to fight", where does this "I" come from? If I understand it correctly, when we get "I" into picture, we are helping fate to become stronger to experience it in this life/subsequent lives.

The only way to get rid of or override the malefic influence (resulting from our bad karmas) is have HIM as our charioteer to safely drive the chariot (our life) as powered by horses (planets) while we are on it. This in itself needs a blessing. Any yagnas, remedies would be fruitful only when we surrender the chariot (life) to an able charioteer capable of controlling and leading it towards a safe destination. Without a good charioteer, no measure would safely lead the chariot.

As I understand, in a battle, the success of king (rider) also depends on how efficient Charioteer is. Charioteer would always act proactively to ensure rider's safety.

Below is a story that I would like to narrate in this connection. Apologies if its a very common one.

A man being a true devotee got a boon from God that God should always accompany him throughout his life, not leaving for a second. When it was granted, obviously, he was very happy. Whenever he walked, he would always see 4 footprints, 2 of his and 2 of Lord accompanying him. The man was glad to have God beside him all the time.

As times passed, the man entered a difficult phase of his life. During this difficult time, he could only see 2 footprints and not 4. He was very upset thinking God left him alone. He decided to face the challenges and fight it out. Eventually, all the problems were solved and his good times begun again.

Now, with his good times, he started to notice 4 footprints again. The man was very angry at God. When God appeared before him, the man in all his anger, started asking about how could he vanish during his bad times and return for good times?

God smiled and said, "I never vanished during your bad times". But the man not convinced with God's statement questioned again asking why wasn't he seeing 4 footprints as he is supposed to, it was only his 2 footprints.

God smiled again and said, "Dear, you are right, there were only 2 foot prints and not 4. But you are wrong in thinking those 2 footprints you saw were yours. The truth is the 2 footprints you were seeing were of Mine and not yours".

Man shocked at God's response, requested God to explain. God explained, "you could only see my 2 footprints because I was CARRYING you during your bad times for you to safely cross them".

It was the man's footprints that were missing and what he could see was God's footprints carrying him thru his difficult times.

A story I could vouch for in my life.

[basab14]

Violet,

I understand what you are trying to say. And maybe you are right, too. But I kind of don’t agree with it. And I have my own logic for that, which can be wrong. But it is convincing for me.

Coming to the first point you have mentioned: about our karmas not fixed in the birth chart, that is something I don’t agree with because in the astrology books I have read so far, I have never till date come across this concept. No astrology book ever talks about a birth chart showing flexible karma. And it makes sense that it doesn’t mention it because astrology is a predictive science, which it will no more remain if we go by what you are saying, as the individuals will then have it in their own hands to change their destinies.

Coming to our deciding which planet we choose to lead us, I don’t agree with it. The planetary period decides it for us, I feel. The period of the planet we run gets the main focus, I believe. If a person is running the period of Mars in own sign in ascendant, he can’t decide on leading the life of some other planet. And the planetary dasha goes down to the fifth level where the period of the planet changes every 2-3 days. So even for every 2-3 days our lives are dictated by the effect of some planet. Now leaving all these influences aside, us choosing on our own which planet will lead us, I don’t think makes sense, as far as I am concerned.

I again don’t agree with you that we decide which side of a planet we allow to rule us. You have given the example of Saturn and Mars and Sun. Let me take those same examples and make my point. Yes Saturn can make one have endurance and again it can make us mean, but it is not a choice we make, but a choice destiny makes because Saturn will react in different ways depending on its condition in the chart. If it’s a good Saturn, well placed, unafflicted and strong, it will bring out the positive side of it and make the person have endurance, and if it is afflicted and ill placed, it will bring out the negative side of the planet, making the person mean minded.

Coming to Mars, same rule applies. If Mars is well placed and unafflicted in the chart, it will bring out the positive side of Mars, making the person courageous and protective but if it is ill placed and afflicted, it will bring out the negative side of Mars, that is, the person will be angry.

Same rule applies for Sun, too. If Sun is well placed and unafflicted, then the good qualities of Sun like generosity will show up in the person, and if it is afflicted, then the bad qualities of Sun will show up, which is egoism.

So it is very clear that which side of the planet will show up in our personality is not our choice, but is dependent on the condition of the planet in our charts.

Now coming to present life karma, which you have mentioned, it is so much dependent on our previous life karma (which again is very much dependent on its previous life karma, and so it goes on) that the individual doesn’t have a choice in deciding something on his free will.

A person, who has Moon in ascendant will break into tears when confronted with a difficult situation and and accept his fate, but a person with Mars in ascendant in the same situation will try to fight back, the latter thinking that the former is surrendering to destiny, while he is trying to fight back, using free will, not realizing that it is Mars in ascendant in his birth chart, and not his free will, which is making him a fighter.

So our choices in life are not decided by us, it is decided by the planets, which influence our thinking every moment of our lives. That's what I believe in, which is why, I don't try to make people believe in what I believe as they will believe what the planets will make them believe. Our thinking is controlled by different planets after all.

[basab14]

I agree with Basab ji and the quote from Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa teachings.

Thank you, Vaglarm ji. And thanks for sharing the beautiful story.

[2002diksha]

I am really fascinated with discussion. astrology can be dangerous too. For example when you predict that a child who is born will never see victory and he /she will be be very poor then think of the plight of parents. they will never take care or child or get into paranoia. similarly before a battle if it is predicted that the battle will end in defeat then will soldiers fight. no they will simply give up.

astrology may be predictive but at the end it the mortal man who makes his life. in the game if life where life and death goes on its the responsibility of man alone to live his life. uneducated man especially women who are taught right form the beginning that their life depends on how the husband keeps them, if they surrender to astrology then it is understandable but educated men who has so many choices in their life if they surrender to astrology then it is their mistake.to be victorious in life depends on one single moment of realization . astrology I believe clouds the mind. this I am telling form my personal experience. many will not agree to it but not very one is the same.
Regards

[basab14]

Diksha ji,

I completely agree with you. Astrology definitely clouds the mind. You are absolutely right that if a person is told beforehand that his life is going to be doomed,then he will not put any effort only, and then, who knows, the astrologer may even have made a wrong prediction for the person. So it is definitely very wrong to depend on astrology. I never encourage anyone to depend on astrology, in fact, I tell everyone to stay away from it and think logically and practically about their lives. I avoid checking my chart, too, as it influences my thinking.

One definitely will have to take responsibility for his deeds, or otherwise, a person will do a crime and say that what to do he was destined to do the crime. Society doesn't work that way, and we individuals can't lead our lives that way, either. I know you are wondering why I am contradicting myself, but it is not actually so. All these points that I am making about destiny being predestined are okay to discuss and believe in, but when it comes to practical life, one should think practically, and not from an astrological standpoint.

And Diksha ji, I feel, no one depends on astrology that way. I don't think anyone decides on their lives based on astrology. It is only when a person is stuck up in life, and don't see any light at the end of the tunnel, they go to an astrologer to know about the future if it holds some hope for them, but I have never come across someone, who took their decision based on their chart. We think it happens that way, but it is not so, I think.

[2002diksha]

basabji,
I completely agree with you that one does astrology according to their needs and compulsions.
Regards

[basab14]

Yes, Diksha ji, that's exactly how it is. And you know what the worst part is: astrology sometimes gives us false hopes, and when we realize that it was that, it shatters us once again as it feels terrible to discover that the prediction made of a bright future was just a wrong prediction of the astrologer, and the reality is something completely different. I have seen such cases, too, and the pain of that disappointment is tremendous, making people develop a hatred for the subject.

[vaglram]

Thank you, Vaglarm ji. And thanks for sharing the beautiful story.

Thanks Basab ji.

Dear basab14,

No, I don't think it is destiny as to how we will react to the situation. That's why, I said every graha has two sides. Same Saturn can make you very strong in taking a lot of sorrow, or very mean at other people because you have seen sorrow and are afraid of it. Same Mars can make you very angry or very courageous and protective. Same Sun can make you generous and give out your last penny or make you as arrogant as acting like the center of the world.

Often, people will display both sides. Which side they pick most of the time, is the free-will, in my opinion.

Best regards,
Violet

Thought provoking discussion.

Truth is, ultimately, as an individual one needs to understand being the instrument and not doer - a thought which would eventually refrain him from accumulating bad karmas.

Birth as a human being is a boon as its supports spiritual advancement of soul. And I believe it has an intelligence to choose. When a new soul enters the world, it has two paths - sacred texts/Joy/Bliss and Pleasures/Shadripus/consequences. That could be when goodwill and two sides of grahas come into picture. Once the soul chooses its path, the subsequent lives will have the impact and carry its influence.

Subsequent lives, even when grahas still might have their two sides, soul gets inclined towards poorva janma taste and fragrance as realized by it. Probably is that we call natural traits for a person?

Soul could have a free will to choose between Supreme Joy and Pleasures. However from an astrologer's perspective, when a prediction is made about fate, I agree, he might need to acknowledge to the native the possibility of freewill (by bhakti/intelligence/remedies) to instil a confidence in him (and not leading to a depressive or escaping mentality, especially for sensitive people).

And wouldn't this mention of freewill by an astrologer always lead the soul in direction of choosing Joy over Pleasures - recommend good deeds, remedies, poojas establishing connection with Lord? Isnt it the reason we have self-realized souls visit earth to provide guidance?

I am not an astrologer and have very limited exposure to sacred texts. Please guide me if I am wrong.

[Caliber]

Basab,

After a long time, I see a very good discussion. You are right to the point.

One good thing with Human is that even if we are going through bad part of life and even if astrology predicts that we will not have good life in "x" number of months or "y" number of years, we still will continue to try to overcome and only when we do not see the relief, we then think it is fate.

But I completely agree with you that, we are driven by fate. But as a human being, we still continue to work towards progress.

You know that I am from A.P. In the past 10 years, there is more liquor available than water in many villages as Govt is trying get more revenue. In my village, many of my cousins (and cousin's kids) died in the past 5-6 due to heavy drinking. I am sure, not everyone 's fate is written to die like that in young age. If Govt makes it hard the availability of liquor so easily, so many kids will not die. Here I fail to understand the astrology part as it is related to mass deaths.

Thanks for matured discussion.

[basab14]

Hello Caliber,

Thank you. Coming to your point, you are absolutely right, we don’t stop putting effort if our chart says time is not favourable for us, unless we know logically that it is a hopeless situation and accepting the situation would be better than fighting it.

Coming to the point you have made about mass deaths, and how it is possible that so many people were destined to die at the same time, well, I think here mundane astrology comes in, which shows the effect of the planets on states and countries. If the horoscope of AP shows a bad planetary period then the mass deaths there could be explained astrologically.

[vaglram]

sharing another story I learn from...

A father and his little daughter were walking along bankside of a river. They had to cross the river on a narrow wooden bridge built across it. Father fearing his little one might lose balance on the bridge asked his daughter to hold his hand.

The little one said to her father, "its better if you hold my hand instead of me holding you". Surprised, father asked, "Whats the difference, aren't they one and the same".

Little one said, "no father, if I hold your hand I might lose the grip in fear if something unexpected happens, but if you hold me, you will never let go of my hand come what may"

Common one but I liked it a lot when considering role of father as played by God and little daughter as Humans and river as life. Made more sense to me in this perspective. Isnt it very true ji? Always safe to ask Him to hold our hand than us trying to hold Him. When He holds us, He will make sure to save us during difficult times and guide us (from ego and other wrong directions) during successful times

posting here, so I will always remember it in life Basab ji, hope you like this too Thanks.