Mantra or Stotra?

[Dev]

Talib:

There is nothing wrong to be a person like this who cheat himself. Its just ignorance and a stage of evolution and as you said they will wake up one day, they are bound to .

Yes, true but then when they affect other's prospects or irritate others, then it is a problem for others. Left to themselves, they may improve with time, that is different.
Yes, asuras also get results when the please God and this desire is not bhakti its just creating more KARMAS as you rightly said.

He fulfills every desire of a mind but in the end he has his own ways to control the maddest elephant.
True
Dev

Sudarshan:

Sometimes there are people that practice karma yoga but are not following other shastriya DOs and Dont's like honesty, truthfulness etc. Then that is not proper practice of karma yoga and the Lord will not bless them.
It is surprising that how such diametrically opposite thoughts can coexist in a human, is he acting and trying to hide his negative part?

Proper practice of karma yoga includes sincerity in doing Nitya Naimittiga karma & Satyam vada, Dharmam chara etc. We are practising karma yoga as has been handed down by our lineage as opposed to understanding shastras & then practising as it states. even then it is fruitful as long as we do it whole heartedly.
Does it not mean those who practise whole heartedly should not have garbage inside, or atleast should be pure to a great extent?

People who follow shastras but are full of garbage inside are not truly practising karma yoga as it should be - i.e they are practising some sections out of fear, but the non-practice of some of it is pulling them down in terms of karma. Such partial practice is of NO USE WHATSOEVER.
How can people follow shastras but at the same time be full of garbage inside?
How can dharma and adharma coexist? I am talking of extremities.
Dev

[chota bheem]

How can people follow shastras but at the same time be full of garbage inside?
How can dharma and adharma coexist? I am talking of extremities.
Dev

Devji
this is very good question i also feel this sometimes when i see many people who are supposed to be great role models only doing sometimes for the sake of image consciousness
i think not speaking from the highest level this happens when we dont live with awareness...whether it is in rituals or in office if we are not aware of ourselves and thne we fall into this trap.
you must be aware of the famous verse
kurute gangasaagara gamanan
vrata paripaalanam athava daanam
jnaanaviheena sarvamatena
bhajati na muktim janmashatena....
one can do even the sacred tirthayatra of gangasaagar
or do many different vratas or give daana
if this is done without knowledge
according to all one cannot get moksha even in 100 births!

tnx
cb

[Sudarshang]

This happens when one is practising partial karma yoga withou the right attitude and knowledge it should be accompanied with.

Jnaana and karma are not independent but really interdependant.

[Sudarshang]

Talib:

There is nothing wrong to be a person like this who cheat himself. Its just ignorance and a stage of evolution and as you said they will wake up one day, they are bound to .

Yes, true but then when they affect other's prospects or irritate others, then it is a problem for others. Left to themselves, they may improve with time, that is different.
Yes, asuras also get results when the please God and this desire is not bhakti its just creating more KARMAS as you rightly said.

He fulfills every desire of a mind but in the end he has his own ways to control the maddest elephant.
True
Dev

Sudarshan:

Sometimes there are people that practice karma yoga but are not following other shastriya DOs and Dont's like honesty, truthfulness etc. Then that is not proper practice of karma yoga and the Lord will not bless them.
It is surprising that how such diametrically opposite thoughts can coexist in a human, is he acting and trying to hide his negative part?

Proper practice of karma yoga includes sincerity in doing Nitya Naimittiga karma & Satyam vada, Dharmam chara etc. We are practising karma yoga as has been handed down by our lineage as opposed to understanding shastras & then practising as it states. even then it is fruitful as long as we do it whole heartedly.
Does it not mean those who practise whole heartedly should not have garbage inside, or atleast should be pure to a great extent?

People who follow shastras but are full of garbage inside are not truly practising karma yoga as it should be - i.e they are practising some sections out of fear, but the non-practice of some of it is pulling them down in terms of karma. Such partial practice is of NO USE WHATSOEVER.
How can people follow shastras but at the same time be full of garbage inside?
How can dharma and adharma coexist? I am talking of extremities.
Dev

Dev

When sattva rajas and tamas coexist in an individual wny not extremeties such as this?

[Talib]

Dear Sudershang Ji,


All I am saying is that self effort is required at least as a seed which will give thought (which is a seed) for sharnagati.
I agree that shrnagati is PHD, agree that rest all are LKG or matric or college degrees, agree that when we surrender truly there is nothing more to ask for.
My point is, mind watching is a "Homework" which we have to perform in every class for success to reach up to PHD level. Awareness is needed for growth.

Love
Talib

[Sudarshang]

Talib-ji

I agree with "Awareness is needed for growth" - but it appears you are equating "mind watching" with "Awareness". Questionable. While it can definitely promote alertness,it has been my experience it does not foster awareness/knowledge acquisition about the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th aspects of the Artha-Panchaka.

[Talib]

Sudershang ji,

Its completely Ok that your experience is different. But that is your experience and i respect it.

If it is "your experience" that means people may have different other experiences too. Which also means there are different paths. Different experiences, different paths.

I have met people who has that Awareness by watching mind or even by controlling mind.

There is another way which is to "let go".

Love
Talib

[Sudarshang]

Sudershang ji,

Its completely Ok that your experience is different. But that is your experience and i respect it.

If it is "your experience" that means people may have different other experiences too. Which also means there are different paths. Different experiences, different paths.

I have met people who has that Awareness by watching mind or even by controlling mind.

There is another way which is to "let go".

Love
Talib

True there are different methods. But all methods are not equal. Perhaps you might want to know that all methods except one yield results only at the end of all Karma, which could potentially take several life times, while there is one and only one that the Lord has assured WILL give the ultimate result at the end of this life.

Why would someone want to experiment with the various different methods for several life times, when this life could be his/her last? of course the choice is up to the individual and how much time each wants to spend in samsaara taking repeated births.

[Talib]

Perhaps you might want to know that all methods except one yield results only at the end of all Karma, which could potentially take several life times, while there is one and only one that the Lord has assured WILL give the ultimate result at the end of this life.

Sudershang Ji,

Earlier you said there is no shortcut.

Some people says, the "path" is full of thorns, some says its a "pathless path" or "endless", some says there is nothing like path at all and all we do is to sustain the feeling of "doer". I go with all the statements. I feel they all had same experiences but they tried to explain the unexplainable in their own way.

Sir, even in the sense of true surrender there is no path, isn't it dependent on his grace how many births one has to take or if there are any births at all. intellect and books dont dictate his will. it's only his will which dictate "EVERYTHING".

I dont think any individual can define "what is the path" or any individual has the sole authority to his "letter of will"

Sir, before you reject me, just for a sec think on Ravan's story, he was born asura, he did many adharmic things, he was destructive and egoistic to the heights but look at his end, he got direct darshan of lord, got slain by lord himself. Where are we in comparison to RAVANA. Many says that was his goal and if we believe it, than it wasnt sureender, infact, totally other way around. Many says it was leela of lord almighty, now, if we believe that, even then where is surrender.

Any path told by the sadguru is the best and we should walk on that with full faith. But while walking on it we should not have the attitude of comparison. one must should just keep walking.


Love
Talib

[Sudarshang]

Talib-ji

Assuming I agree with you for a moment, please recommend how one will find a "sad-guru" - who is a sad-guru in the first place?

There-in lies many answers to mantra, tantra, shastra, and shlokas, and any mundane practices that take the pyasa to the kuan.

[Dev]

Sudarshan:
When sattva rajas and tamas coexist in an individual wny not extremeties such as this?

I have seen people having shantha swabhavam getting extremely angry at times, those who sing too well no singing good enough on a particular day and so on, I would not call these extremities.
I am talking of persons who can help others and also committ murders. These are the ones who act I said.
Also acting, not exposing one's true self. Like appearing to show love and respect to others but then back stab them. This is all acting.

When one is internally and externally the same, then it is a great virtue, but those who pose and pretend as something else, then comes the problem to identify the true person, what he portrays himself as is different from what he really is.

Satwa rajas thamas coexist in all of us to different extents, I agree. But are most of us showing maximum anger, hatred, vyengance and so on towards others? no, so it is not a display of extremity.

Dev


Dev

[Sudarshang]

Dear Dev,

Just a little bit from my side. I just want to know which God did not show aggression ever, No matter it was for propounding Dharma in the name of killing Demons or sinners but then would we refer it as Satwa or Tamas because spilling of blood was there.

Does it mean whenever there is Deha the three gunas must be there !!! Okay, fine, the quantity can be a little bit different but does not it show the three gunas have to co-exist in everybody whether they are humans or divine. Aims can be different and that very aim decides who we are!!

Sattva, Rajas, Tamas are the basic constituent gunas of prakriti. as long as there is karma-krita prakriti sambandam it will be there in the deha. That said, shudda-sattva akarma vashya ichha krita deham is possible only in nitya vibhooti where sarvam sattva mayam.

[Talib]

Talib-ji

Assuming I agree with you for a moment, please recommend how one will find a "sad-guru" - who is a sad-guru in the first place?

There-in lies many answers to mantra, tantra, shastra, and shlokas, and any mundane practices that take the pyasa to the kuan.

Sudarshang ji,

Thanks for reply and listening, except that i was not looking for defintion of sad-guru because it can not be judged externally nor should it ever be judged externally.

Anyways, My understanding is sad-guru is the one who removes the darkness from you and that inner light shines forth.

In this game pyasa goes to kuan or kuan comes to the pyasa depends on the honesty of the seeker and above all the grace.

I was not looking for any answer through my last post about mantra tantra shastra or shloka, i was just giving my view's about the Grace which removes all the thirst and even the need of well.

Love
Talib

[Talib]

Anupam Ji,

Nice to read your post after long

Love
Talib

[Dev]

Anupam and Sudarshan:

As human is bound by his karmas, satva, raja and tama guna combinations do exist in him in different percentages and atleast most of the humans are aware that they need to increase thier satva guna and minimise rajo and tamo gunas and work towards it conciously.

As far as God is concerned he is beyond Karmas and we can not call his act of killing as his rajo guna expression.
He is beyond the three gunas and is suddha satva as Sudarshan you have said.

So I believe we cannot compare the acts of God with those of humans and also cannot compare horoscopes of God with those of Humans.

Among humans when we compare, the more satvik the person is, we can call him to be in a higher spiritual plane and he must have consciously controlled his mind to win over it.
Dev

[Dev]

Anupam:

How can God appear before or after human, he is beyond time and is omnipresent.?

Dev

[Dev]

Anupam:

True that each one has his own logic, that applies even to atheist, there will be some supporters for him too who would have 100% faith in his sayings.

Yes, I am also saying that we cannot erect a boundary in the case of God, even among humans, if the whole world existed as one entity without boundary and with a single currency, then we would not have had fights and war for territory or water or electricity or whatever.

God is beyond boundary and so is his knowledge, that is why I said, may be we should not analyse his horoscope or compare with human being's.

Dev

[Kuja]

Dear Anupamji
Your statements are profound.
I especially found the following thought provoking.
"At last I retired towards mine meditation room and stopped searching the answers because all the answers whatever I got, from various sources, were contradictory to each other."
"Most of the times the reason is to propound something like sect, religion, philosophy in this mortal world. When we go through all these we find lots of contradictions. Finally we find everyone has had his own set of logic and reasons. We find ourselves in a big mess. To come out of this mess we have no way but to keep somebody at the highest pedestal thinking only one was right and the others were utterly wrong".
Regards

[Sudarshang]

But then what about the people or saints who said there is no Creation, it is just a hallucination !!! If it is a truth then this question itself dies a natural death- Who came first !!! The other person who accept it just hearsay has his own set of logic.

If God is endless so is His knowledge. Better don't erect boundaries. I stop here.

Anupam-ji

Contradictions only exist within mind and not in knowledge. Knowledge (Prama) based on unambigious understanding of Pramana (Pram karanam iti Pramanam) is undoubtedly based on the Vedas which is the primary non-contradictory wholistically true pramanam.

That said, the Vedas do have "apparently" contradicting statements that need to be "made sense of" in such as way as that the statements of apparent contradictions make sense wholistically together.

Vedas clearly state in Shrishti prakaranam (Chandogyam et al) that
1. Creation is not an illusion but a cyclical process that happens again and again over vast time periods called Kalpa.
2. Everything is as real as we see and nothing is an illusion and everything emerged from that Brahman. Therefore the egg emerged from him, and so did the hen. the human body emerged from him and so did the Jeevatma.
3. He performed "anupravesahm" (anEna JeevEna aatmanaa anupravishya) into each Jeevatma at the time of creation.
4. If one were to understand that Brahmam (adesham) (utatam aadesham aprakshyaha?) - yena ashrutam shrutam bhavati (not an illusion but Bhavati), amatam matam, avignyaatam vignyaatam..." etc (6th prapathakam of chandodgyam - discussion between shwetaketu and uddalaka). Therefore, there is no contradiction whatsoever in these statements - If you understand the one Brahmam you can very well understand all of the creation and whatever that exists in this world.

Nothing is an hallucination - halucination only exists in the realm of mind and not knowledge. knowledge is svayam prakasham and svasmai prakasam. Halucination is neither. Therefore there is no possibility of "If it is a truth...." If people or a saint has said that there is no creation and everything is hallucination he/she is categorically wrong (not as per me, but as per the vedas which is the primary pramaanam for creation and Brahma Gyaanam).

That said, I agree with God is Anantam (endless) and therefore cannot be constrained in boundaries of religions, faith, and even "INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCES".

[Sudarshang]

Anupam-ji

Continuing the earlier post about Creation, the Chandogyam also gives an example: yatha EkEna mrut pindEna sarvam mrunmayam vignyaatamsyaad - i.e the same way as knowing a ball of clay you can know all things created with clay - in the same way, tattvamasi shvetakEtO - you are that Shvetaketu.

That is to say, "In the same way as knowing a clay pindam you can know all things made from clay, you are made from that Brahmam Shvetaketu." This prakaranam's purpose was to establish that the Brahmam is the material cause of this universe. and therefore that is what is established. if someone were to mistake the clear meaning of this prakaranam - He is the sole material cause of creation and everything/everyone emerged from HIM. It does not state anywhere that ONLY He is truth and everything else is Illusion. What it means to say is that without HIM things cannot exist because everything emerged from HIM.

Another shastra vakyam (subalopanishad) establishes the context how to understand the Jeevatma tattvam which is a sookshma tattvam, together with paramatva tattvam. "Yasya aatma shariira" - clearly states "To whom this aatma is shariiram".

Therefore, the same way as the shariiram is the body to the Aatma, the Aatma is the body to the paramatma thereby establishing the equation:

Body : Jeevatma :: Jeevatma : Paramaatma

In the end there is truth in Brahma Satyam, but Jagat is also satyam by being His Body. There is no illusion and no contradiction. All jeevatmas including the 33 crore devatas, and life on other planets and universes, all the material universes and 14 lokas in each of the crores of universes - all of it are His Shariiram. He having performed anupravesham and as the swami of the Jeevatma is the Sarva Bhokta or the experience in the individual experience. In fact, He is the experiencer in all Jeevatma's experiences. That is the reason why I stated he cannot be confined even within Individual Experiences, because, He is finally the Experiencer and not US. And that, is the reason why there is no boundaries as well - Everything emerged from HIM, He Owns everything, boundaried by human conditioning or not.

I will stop here.

[Sudarshang]

Anupam-ji

unless and until I experience it.

If that is not ego, what else to call it? Enjoy "Your Experiences."

By the way, I am not against individual experiences - but when the Experiencer in the Individual is HE, what individual experience are we talking about? The very idea/thought of the aham being the bhokta of an experience itself stands on faulty ground according to me, and the so called "individual experience" is nothing but another ploy of the ego.

[Sudarshang]

Sudarshang Ji,

Being obsessive till the time we prove our 'Point' does it not show 'Ego'!!!:) We feel hurt that why we were not accepted in spite of our all sound logistics emanated from our exceptional knowledge that also when the other has accepted that he is not evolved enough to take all this knowledge to his heart. Does it not show Ego on your part Sudarshang ji .

Why we want to win the race !!! Just for feeling jubilant that we are on high pedestal in terms of knowing because we have something that others do not have. Why we are feeling impatient enough for others growth instead of concentrating 'Inside' in our very Self.

Let everybody go on his own pace, even if he is on the wrong path, if Mahavishnu is there he will grab his hand one day. Who are we to dictate the terms in the name of Shanstras . I respect your faith you should respect Mine. That is the sign of evolved souls unless it is just the game of Win and Loss.

That we terms as Ego.

That is all I can say Sudarshang Ji. Now I hope we may not start a new thread to decide who has greater 'Ego' . If this is going to happen then I accept in advance I have greater Ego. You are far more humble. What more can I say !!

Except that when we talk about Individual Experience we just use words to put the things according to our Mind. In reality there is no 'Individual Experience'. Or I should say there is no Experience at all because Experience comes in the realm of Mind. But I do not want to begin Shastrartha on it Sudarshang Ji. Believe me.

Anupam-ji

You post is full of smilies, but I can understand what's behind the smilies.

Beacuse I understand you, I will let go here at this point....sarvam khalvidam Bramha.