Afflictions and deities; confusing cases

For discussion on remedial measures (upayas) - mantras, yagyas, puja, charity, gems, ishta devata
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Dhanvanta
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Dear anupam
Rishi Parashara would not say that because Astrology is chiefly meant for common man who is not at that evolutionary state of mind. So, it is better to prescribe him proper mantras of deities relate with particular planet or periods. That will be much easy and comfortable for him instead of saying have unshakable faith in his Ishta. For reaching that state one has to be Hanuman Bhakta like Rokadia Baba or even Kali devotee like Ramakrishna Paramhansa only then it can work unless not.
I don't feel comfortable with suggesting such simplistic dichotomies and saying that either one is a common man- so he must be considered almost a fool without the slightest power of discrimination- or he is a great saint like Ramakrishna. What about so many levels of intellectual/spiritual development in between? moreover, I would say there is more to it than that. Let me give an example: We know perfectly well that In a company, it is the managing director who decides the general operations of a company and all basic decisions are made by him and by gaining his approval. But when you want to make a complaint about a product, would you insist that only the managing director should listen to your story? do we expect that the managing director himself should deal with each and every trivial matter? I believe such is the case in remedial measures. No matter how firmly you believe in God, if you are hungry you would have to go to the baker's shop instead of saying a prayer for a loaf to be put in your hand! Of course it is ultimately God who arranges all this and these are His own rules. I can not ask God to directly cure my decayed tooth, fill my hungry stomach, etc. etc. So I believe this is the reason why grahas or different deities are worshiped. Yes, there are self-realized souls who won't need any of this, but let's not forget that they have transcended karma and basically they are not seeking solutions to improve their mundane situation. Hence, they can not be the subject of our discussion as Jyotish is the science of time and karma. Meanwhile, even people who are spiritually advanced but not necessarily self-realized still would need remedies.
And believe me in that even your faith is not required. Even if you do it mechanically you get the results. For example I suggested MMM to an Italian Lady and mantra of Mercury to Sikh Doctor in London. Both got miraculous results within 15 days. Especially the Italian lady who got the results in 3 days.
Quite the contrary, at least a minimum faith is required for absolutely any undertaking. If your client or anybody else has no faith why should they come to you and why should they take your advice in the first place? What propels them to do so is "faith". I can't imagine that anybody would chant even for one day without any faith, and I don't think anything in this world has ever been accomplished without some level of faith.
And I would say Durga is most powerful for those persons who are like Ramakrishna or Hanuman is the most potent God for the saint like Rokadia Baba. Even if everybody cannot be that stage of faith but it will be enough if they are atleast on the path of true devotee.
Only to Ramakrishna is Durga the most powerful? I would say many people who have read Devi Mahatmya also believe so even if they are not at that high level of devotion. Is it really needed to be at a very high level of spirituality to believe that a deity is the greatest? Also you said earlier that faith is not required and now you say one needs to be "at least on the path of true devotee"??

Best,
Dhanvanta
Last edited by Dhanvanta on 20 Feb 2012, edited 4 times in total.
Dhanvanta
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Dear anupam,

What you said was not difficult to understand; any person with an average IQ can get it and I clarified myself about it in my very previous post. My question has to to with a technical aspect of Jyotish which happens to be a very tricky one. Again I repeat: if only solving problems is the issue, you are right in saying that unshakable faith in any form of God would suffice. Even people who have faith in the power of the mind are able to work wonders ... why not?

Thank you for your time anyway,
Dhanvanta
Nitin21

Dear Dhanvanta,

Please allow me to share what i have learnt.

Part 1
------------
There is one creator who is GOD. i.e. Shri Vishnu. Rest all are souls with a hierarchy, which is called Taratamya in the language of shastras. Now it is the attribute of the soul to aquire a skin over it to realize the self via karmas. Everyone including Lord Shiva, Navagrahas, Indra and other devatas are souls. In every kalpa the souls change but the posts like Lord Shiva, Indra etc remain same. So, the soul which is Lord Shiva today may not be Shiva in the next kalpa, but based on his sadhana towards Shri Vishnu will be promoted to the next level in taratamya. One e.g. is Shri Hanumanji is Vayu Avatara, who is next to Shri LaxmiNArayana and equal to Brahmaji. In the next kalpa, Hanumanji will be our Brahma, who will be born from the navel of Shri Vishnu.

This implies that Shri Vishnu is beginingless and endless and does service to the souls by making them realize their true self via Moksha for Satvikas, Andha Tamas for Tamasik Souls and Mixed stay for Rajasik ones. Just like Shri Vishnu, A soul also does not have a beginning or the end. but the difference is that Soul is inert without accepting the services of the Lord to bring it into sujaya avastha. So, Lord gives them a linga deha and various forms to realize the self. Out of all these, human birth is the best as it allows the soul to evolve and worship as per the guidelines of the Lord himself as per Shastras, which other linga dehas are not able to do like animals and plants. They come lower in taratamya. We can go on and on about taratmya, but lets leave it for some other day and come back to your original questions.

Now when the soul evolves based on his Sadhana towards Shri Hari, it steps up the ladder in taratamya as i mentioned about example of Shri Hanumanji. But this ladder stops at Brahma. No one ever becomes Shri Vishnu.

The answer to your question about Ganeshji lies in this. Ganapati devata was born with a purpose and to defeat the evil forces with powerful boons. His role is as per taratamya only. Every soul has a pratibimba in the form of Vasudeva and it is specific to the soul and its evolution. As i mentioned the soul is inert. Cannot work by itself. So, Shri Hari does this service to the soul by giving it direcctions to finish this sadhana. When this sadhana reaches its zenith, one becomes aparoksha gyani. This means, the soul sees lord everywhere, every second in all its forms. He is ever connected to the almighty and knows what exactly the Lord is expecting of him to continue his sadhana. All the pandavas in mahabharata were previous Indras and aparoksha Gyanis.

When Ganapati is termed as powerful, the term is upto his taratamya only. For e.g. Lord Shiva is greater than Navagrahas. Shri Vayu is greater than all put together. Shri Vishnu is highest and does not fall into any taratamya.

So, any offering to Shri Ganesha or Maa Durga eventually reaches the pratibimba form of the soul as Shri Narayana rupa. Why >? Because the soul itself is inert and the very fact that it is a soul, means that the true worship is towards the creator only. i.e. Shri Vishnu.

Contd..
Last edited by Nitin21 on 15 May 2011, edited 1 time in total.
Nitin21

Part 2
-------------
The word SUPREME must never be used for anyone other than Shri Vishnu. At the same time, the order of the taratamya must never be compromized. Without this knowledge, moksha cannot be achieved. This knowledge comes via shastras only, nowhere else. It is because Shastras are the mind of God. When we superimpose our Mind over the mind of God, we get delusions only. So, all the Rishis always acted as per Shastra dictums only. E.g. Shree Rama paying Sashtanga Pranaam to Ravana. Why >? Because he was a Brahmin too, apart from being a Daitya. Does Lord need to do this ? NO. But he was following Shastras, to emulate the role of Maryada Purushottama Rama to be followed by others. Was he doing for himself ? NO. He portrayed his acts for the upliftment of the soul, which is inert and need guidance all the time to tread to the right path.

In between somewhere you have answered your own questions beautifully, by giving examples of going to doctor for a tooth decay. This is an evolved mindset that comprehends the inner meanings of Shastras.

Bottomline, All the power in this world is owing to Vayu(Hanuman) Saniddhi in the soul. At times, the souls higher in taratamya occupy the body to give temporary victory to the Sadhaka in difficult times, which the sadhaka himself maynot be able to achieve. At all times when Ganesha proved to defeat all put together, he was possessed with Vayu amsha, as per the boons given to him to fructify his purpose of birth.

There is no difference between Shri Raama and Shri Krishna or other Shri Vishnu avataras. But there is a chief avatara for every yuga. For e.g. For Kaliyuga, Shri Krishna worship brings imminent results. Satyuga was for Shri Rama avatara. Similarly, every deity has been assigned a role as you rightly mentioned in your posts and must be worshipped accordingly. The deity should be always worshipped antargata Vayu antargata Shri Vishnu to get full results. this is as per Bhagvad Gita, where Shri Krishna says, whatever you offer to other deities reaches ultimately me. Who do not see me in other deities, often gain the lokas signfied by the deities as per their worship and go back to samsara. But one who worships me, gets freed from samsara and life and death.


This is a clear enough message of what EXISTS as per Shastras.

Regards
Sonu
Last edited by Nitin21 on 16 May 2011, edited 1 time in total.
spidey
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Dear Sonuji,
A question for you - why Vayu amsha only ?
Bottomline, All the power in this world is owing to Vayu(Hanuman) Saniddhi in the soul. At times, the souls higher in taratamya occupy the body to give temporary victory to the Sadhaka in difficult times, which the sadhaka himself maynot be able to achieve. At all times when Ganesha proved to defeat all put together, he was possessed with Vayu amsha, as per the boons given to him to fructify his purpose of birth.
Thanks and regards,
Spidey
I am a student of this subject , and hence I might be wrong in my calculations. Kindly seek other opinions too , before coming to a conclusion.
Nitin21

spidey wrote:Dear Sonuji,
A question for you - why Vayu amsha only ?
Bottomline, All the power in this world is owing to Vayu(Hanuman) Saniddhi in the soul. At times, the souls higher in taratamya occupy the body to give temporary victory to the Sadhaka in difficult times, which the sadhaka himself maynot be able to achieve. At all times when Ganesha proved to defeat all put together, he was possessed with Vayu amsha, as per the boons given to him to fructify his purpose of birth.
Thanks and regards,
Spidey
Dear Spidey,

It is Vayu as Cheif Instrument of PRANA that does japa of Shri Vishnu every second on our behalf to help us live. Without the incessent ajapa by Mukhya Prana (Vayu), sustainence of life is not possible. Where there is Vayu there is Narayana, without Narayana, Vayu does not exist. :)

Regards
sonu
Dhanvanta
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Dear Sonu,

Thank you very much. It was a delight reading your explanation. Meanwhile, let me come back to one Puranic story I referred to in my first post:
We all know that Ganesha is the remover of obstacles while Saturn is (generally) considered to be the creator of obstacles. When Parvati made Saturn bliss the baby Ganesha, Ganesha's head burned to ashes because of the immense power Saturn's gaze had. Now this is one of those specific cases of confusion: Now that Saturn is so strong, how come we invoke Ganesha even before chanting the mantras of Saturn?

It would be a pleasure to have your thoughts on this issue.


Best regards,
Dhanvanta
Zarna
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My 2 cents on this....
To run a country,It needs a prime minister,President,attorney general........etc.It needs Police as well as Army commanders etc.....list is long.Each & every person has their own defined work & areas to do.Everybody has their own powers & weapons.Sometimes a pen which signs an agreement is quite powerful than a gun but it doesnt mean that the person who posses gun isnot much powerful than the person who has a pen!!Jst think the administration/management of whole world/universe????
DhanvantaJi,
A single story of shastras doesnt determine everything which concerns the real knowledge.Sometimes you need to keep your logic away while thinking such things.jst Keep faith....
ShreeKrishnarpan Astu..
Thanks & Regrds,
Jai shree Krishna,
Zarna
Jai shree krishna
Nitin21

Dear dhanvanta,

Shri Ganesha's head was blown away by trishula of Mahadev while Ganapatiji was guarding the entrance of Mata Parvati. It was not Saturn influence. Rudra devaru is above 9 planets. Without Rudra upasana Shri Vishnu krupa cannot be obtained. The pratibimba rupa of Shri Rudra devaru is Lord Narasimha who has three eyes. Hence Lord Shiva is also known as Trayambakeshwar.

Lord Ganesha was granted Gaja mukha on his own request in Vishwambhara roopa. Hence the events unfolded and He got gajamukha.

Him being remover of obstacles and guardian of all spiritual activities and to be worshipped first among all deities is also a boon from Shri Vishnu, Shri Mahalaxmi and Brahmaji ( all higher in taratamya) , to empower Gajanan after the head replacement episode.

My daughter has special love towards Ganeshaji. So much so that if I do not fulfill any of her wish to watch a ganesha movie, i get punished instantly :).

On Ganesha Chaturthi last year Lord Ganesha blessed us by allowing to the mantap tobe right outside our bldg out of many. Such was his grace, i was allowed to do part of seva too although i was not in core committee. To get full blessings of Lord Ganesha, we must worship Ganapatiji in the Vishwambhara roopa with 19 heads, with nine human heads on each side and Gaja mukha as main head.

Shani devata is my Guru. I have no words of Praise for the deity. :) . The Lord has given me much needed discipline in spiritual matters. Although, like everyone else i have my own inner battles with shadripus to fight. Shani devata sparing all who worship Vayu antargata Narayana is another example of taratamya establishment.

Regards
Sonu
Dhanvanta
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Dear Sonu,

There is another version of that story in which Ganesha's head burns because of Saturn's gaze. I can give reference if needed.
Just wanted to add that as an advocate of Advaita Vedanta, it is quite natural for me to use the word "Supreme" for Brahman. To me, the ultimate truth is Brahman (Tao).

I enjoy reading your comments and experiences.

Best regards,
Dhanvanta
Nitin21

Dear dhanvanta,

In padma puran there is a verse wherein pauranic smritis are divided into satvik, tamasik and rajasik. Padma purana itself has been categorized as satvik by shri ved vyasa. All contents of satvik puranas are to be taken as correct. The other two types have been extrapolated in bits and pieces to delude the tamasik souls from gaining access to the supreme gyana, by order of Shri Ved Vyasa who is Shri Vishnu himself. Ganapatiji learnt and wrote all scriptures under his guidance.

So just check the source of content from where it is originating. Anything that contradicts Bhagavath Purana can be safely sidelined by satvikas. Meaning it is there to delude demons to induce brahma hatya by accepting wrong dictums to give gati to their souls to andha tamas.

Regarding Brahman you can safely use the word Supreme as it is Shri Vishnu who is termed as Brahman in Vedas. There is also a verse in Shri Vishnu Sahasranama to describe him as Brahman.

Dwaita Advaita philosophy results are best left to the Lord to decide. In both sects Sadhana towards the Supreme Brahman is of paramount importance.

Regards
Sonu
Zarna
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astrosonu wrote:Dear dhanvanta,

Dwaita Advaita philosophy results are best left to the Lord to decide. In both sects Sadhana towards the Supreme Brahman is of paramount importance.

Regards
Sonu
SonuJi,
One final dot. :)
Jai shree krishna,
Regards,
Zarna
Jai shree krishna
Sudarshang

Astrosonu-ji

A pleasure reading your postings on this thread!
Nitin21

Thank you Sudarshanji. I am humbled.
namitha
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Namaskar,

Thank you Dhanvanta ji for this question - Both Sonu ji and Anupam ji 's reply have boosted my knowledge.

We can find more than one puranic story about the same episode - so we cannot blindly follow it- broadening our horizon is the best we can do.
Mercury + Jupiter+ Sun these combination in a chart or prashan chart (in trines to each other or aspect ) can show not just Ganesha - but can also show a saligram or specific deity a family has or which they worship.

Sir Rahu can also show Naga devata.

Thanks
N
Every thing seems to end some times, but we forget that it is the beginning of some thing new and powerful
thcricketfan
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Dhanvanta wrote:Dear Mahesh and friends,

Similar to sacred iconography, mythology is the key to deep layers of the psyche. Thus, it could confuse if interpreted quite literally. The hidden meaning of myths cannot be grasped by relying upon the intellect alone.


Warm regards,
Dhanvanta
Jai Sai Ram, Dhanvanta Ji, what is the meaning of this statement - "Similar to sacred iconography, mythology is the key to deep layers of the psyche. " Please help me understand how iconography is key to deep layers of psyche.
Thank You!
God Bless.
Dhanvanta
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Dear thcricketfan,

What I mean is that sacred images, like yantras and mandalas, are revealed to sages in higher states of consciousness during meditation. The best way to understand them - which differs from our usual linear intellectual understanding- is to meditate on them. It is also worth mentioning here that sometimes things are revealed to us in dreams in the form of symbols and when you have such dreams, a deeper layer of your psyche - or perhaps your soul- is talking to you. Such are also omens (Nimitta) which are interpreted in Vedic astrology.


Regards,
Dhanvanta
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