Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

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ChandraLagna
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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by ChandraLagna » 09 Sep 2017

Khoo Hock Leong wrote:
06 Sep 2017
Chandra Lagna

BPHS has to be read jointly with the edicts of the scriptures. That is why logic does not have the full say of everything, and that is why there is not just 108 padas in a person's chart.
Khoo,

The above post has a beautiful paradox because it is intended to be against logic and yet the moment you say .."that is why", you are trying to be logical. In other words, there is an initial statement, a logic or reason & finally a conclusion. The reason or logic is what connects the initial statement and the attempted astrological conclusion regarding navamsas.

Initial statement: BPHS has to be read with edicts of scriptures.
Logic (connecting the statement above to conclusion below): "that is why logic does not have full say.."
Conclusion: there is not just 108 padas in a person's chart.

It is another matter that there are 108 Nakshatra padas in zodiac, not more, not less. So unless you can point out which exact scripture says there are more than 108 navamsas, the conclusion is incorrect, the connecting logic does not make sense, and so the entire supposition is then called illogical. Note that this still does not answer how aspects work in navamsa.


--भज गोविन्दं... भज गोविन्दं...गोविन्दं भज, मूढमते --

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ChandraLagna

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by ChandraLagna » 09 Sep 2017

Khoo Hock Leong wrote:
06 Sep 2017
Chandra Lagna :

9th house is Lakshmi Stanth. So Navamsa which is an expansion of the 9th house shows Lakshmi's influence, just like Venus is one of the significators of Navamsa.

Lakshmi represents the globlets of protein and nutrients that swamp the body, making food easily digestible by various parts of the body (organs).

We thus have more than one navamsa for each of us.

Initial statement: Lakshmi represents the globlets of protein and nutrients….
Causality, or Logical part : “We thus “
Conclusion: have more than one navamsa for each of us.

While Rathore has asked for the source of this highly suspect initial statement, I am completely stumped at this post - what has globlets of protein & nutrients got to do with navamsa?!

“We thus have more than one navamsa for each of us”. Of course. Yes, in previous post you mentioned we have more than 108 navamsa, so of course, the zodiac has 108 Navamsas which certainly more than one. Since the connecting logic between initial statement and conclusion is not clear, this supposition can also to be termed illogical. And this post also does not even touch upon how aspects work in navamsa.
--भज गोविन्दं... भज गोविन्दं...गोविन्दं भज, मूढमते --

With Regards,
ChandraLagna

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by ChandraLagna » 09 Sep 2017

Khoo Hock Leong wrote:
06 Sep 2017
Have you ever though how Jyotish charts can tie to a person's fortune or misfortune in all areas? It must be something relating to the planetary energies that get linked with our microscopic physical elements. Even without recourse to the books I mentioned earlier, you should know explanation has to be something to do with energy bands, theoretical physics, cosmology, quantum mechanics, statistical mechanics etc. but in a way that you need a Turing machine to translate the scriptures alphabet by alphabet to the settings of modern physics and not the physical geometry which you and Chandra Lagna is talking about.

And yet modern physics is still evolving, whereas the knowledge of all the ancient scriptures has been settled eons ago.
There is no causality between quantum mechanics, statistical mechanics and all the other stuff to support the theory of aspect in navamsa. If anything, the subjects you mention are pure mathematics and actually support the central theme of this thread – that vargas are not the same as rasi and do not read a varga like you would a rasi.
--भज गोविन्दं... भज गोविन्दं...गोविन्दं भज, मूढमते --

With Regards,
ChandraLagna

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by ChandraLagna » 09 Sep 2017

So Khoo, If I have to finally summarize your viewpoint, it appears to be:

Yes, aspects work in navamsas because:
- BPHS has to be read jointly with scriptures and hence there are more than 108 navamsas ( but still does not answer how this means aspects work in navamsas)
- Lakshmi represents globlets of proteins and nutrients and thus we have more than one navamsa ( this makes no attempt to answer how aspects work in navamsa)
- Quantum mechanics and statistical mechanics etc etc ( this is actually an anti-example, because these subjects are highly mathematical!)
- Lord Yama rides the bull ( This again has no bearing, much less support aspects in navamsa)

As you can see, none of your posts support Aspects in Navamsa.
--भज गोविन्दं... भज गोविन्दं...गोविन्दं भज, मूढमते --

With Regards,
ChandraLagna

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by tylorechandra » 09 Sep 2017

@ChandraLagna ji,
It is really very nice to see the conviction you have regarding aspects in Navamsa. If I have followed you correctly (Pl correct me if I am wrong), the continuous 108 amsas corresponding to 108 nakshatra padas each with a 3deg 20 min span occupy 12 signs which are designated as Mesha, Vrishabha etc repeated nine times for the 108 amsas (simailarly, say for shashtiamsa, the names repeat 60 times). Also, all the amsas falling in the sign with the same name have the same dispositor (or depositor if that term is preferred) irrespective of their longitudes.
Is my understanding of your views correct ? or is there something I am still missing ?

TKC

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by ChandraLagna » 09 Sep 2017

Hi Tylorechandra,

Your understanding is correct, each of the 12 rasis have 9 navamsas each, thus adding up to 108 navamsas. The question of amsa having same depositor does not arise, because an amsa merely means " a part of", thus all 9 amsas of mesha or Aries are owned by Kuja or mars, but each navamsa within Aries still has different owners. Vargottama happens when owner of rasi is Kuja, and navamsa owner is also kuja, thus first navamsa of mesha is vargottama. I recommend all readers to please look up a circular diagram of 108 navamsas and it will clarify all the doubts.

In the same example I quoted above, when you look at drekkana, then Jupiter still is in Sagi drekkana and now moon goes into Kanya drekkana. So, in drekkana, jupiter does not aspect chandra, and in fact can form gaja kesari yoga! So, look at the inconsistency here - in Rasi there is shakata yoga, in navamsa, Guru aspects chandra via 5th drishti and in drekkana, there is GK yoga ! If you start taking chaturamsa and other vargas, I am sure more interesting puzzles will come up.

I again want to clarify that this is not my view, but I am merely advocating the view as in astrological texts and calling out that the widely prevalent practice of reading varga charts similar to Rasi chart has no authoritative textual, mathematical or logical basis.
--भज गोविन्दं... भज गोविन्दं...गोविन्दं भज, मूढमते --

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ChandraLagna

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by tylorechandra » 09 Sep 2017

Thank you ChandraLagna ji.

TKC

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by tylorechandra » 09 Sep 2017

Astrology is also evolving like other sciences – physical, chemical, mathematical, engineering, biological etc. Many articles are being written in astrological magazines using many different techniques for prediction while keeping the basics same. These are all to be considered in the realm of hypothesis which can progress to laws in due course as and when its consistency can be ascertained.
During the mid 1900s a new system was developed. Known to many as the Krishnamurthi Paddati, it involves, basically, a division of nakshatras into 9 unequal parts (in proportion to the vimsottari dasa). Each part is given the lordship of a planet. Each of these divisions is further subdivided and lordships assigned to get the nakshatra lord, sub lord and sub sub lord. The lagna point is considered to be the beginning of the bhava and the bhava lengths are as per the placidus system of houses. The beginning points of each bhava are called cusps (I may be slightly wrong here, but I think this more or less is the case). The chart is called the cuspal chart.
Interpretation generally involves analysing the bhava cusps, nakshatra/sub/sub-sub lords.
Many of the postulations used in this system are not prescribed in original texts. Division of nakshatras unequally is a new concept. Yet, some astrologers practise this technique. They also achieve a fair amount of success in their predictions ( about the same percentage as astrologers using the Parashara). Over the years, this system has also become accepted in some places in astrological circles. Some even claim this to be the most perfect system.
It is therefore quite possible that long ago some one (or group of) astrologer(s) started looking at varga charts differently. I will take the example of navamsa since it is most used varga charts but principles are same.
According to original texts, the 108 amsas of the rasi chart form a continuous circular stream. Ownership of these amsas are given to the planets owning the signs in the rasi chart – for e.g Kuja of Mesha rasi owns the amsas 1, 13, 25 etc. Next Venus of Vrishaba owns the amsas 2, 14, 26 etc and so on.
In the process of Astrological evolution, some astrologers might have tried to consider the arrangement differently – e.g. amsas 1,13,25 etc OCCUPY the rasi owned by Kuja, amsas 2,14,26 etc OCCUPY the rasi owned by Venus and so on. They retained the length of these rasis as 30 degrees (9 amsas of 3 deg 20 min each). The chart so obtained, they called the navamsa chart. This arrangement gave a new set of parameters for analytical purposes – position of navamsa lagna w.r.t. natal lagna, position of planets w.r.t. natal planets, placement in Kendra/Trikona etc in the navamsa chart (Not possible if only the longitudes and ownerships are considered) , aspects in the navamsa etc.
In due course, more astrologers might have used this system of prediction. Good results must have been obtained else the system would have eventually died down.
Today, there are a number of practitioners who use these concepts. Other techniques like shifting of lagna as per time since birth, using lagna of natal chart of one as the lagna of navamsa of the spouse (specially for marriage matching) are also evolving. It is therefore, not possible to condemn outright the usage of aspects in navamsa (varga charts) and other newly developing techniques. In fact, very good results have been achieved by using them.
Forum readers can ponder over the same.

TKC

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by GNE » 10 Sep 2017

To the above post,
of course people using aspects/yogas in navamsa "works" for people - because it gives them way more options to explain away anything.

Someone comes to an astrologer saying they are having trouble having a child.... but the astrologer see's 5th house well disposed, and 5th lord in 11th or something in the rasi chart....so they chech d9 and see some malefic in 5th there so they blame that. Or they see 5th lord of "navamsa chart" in the 4th, aspected by 8th lord and blame that.
or d9 looks good, so they check D7 and find some flaw - anything - on 5th house/lord and blame that.
or d7 looks good too, so they can see d60 and see ketu in 5 and blame that. etc. Then they proclaim that "See! using varga's as charts works, as I explained why that person is childless!"

Meanwhile the real reason always would still be in the rasi (using things like beej /khestra sphuta , or seeing 5th from lagna+jupiter+moon together, or 5th lord combust or in mrityu bhagya, with certain aspects(in rasi) that form complex yoga's for childlessness, etc.)

Anyway don't mind my crappy examples there, lol ,
I'm just trying to say that just because a number of practiioners use aspects in varga's doesn't mean it's correct. It "works" for them, because it does make their job seem easier (gives more charts to find the answer to a question in) - BUT usually those answers are after the fact explaining things away(or rather, "always"...in my experience with astrologer) .
I mean people say their issue "I haven't had a job in 5 years!" = then the astrologer checks d10 and see's a bad aspect to the dasha lord and blames that.
Whereas it's rare to see someone just plop their chart down and say nothing...then have the astrologer correctly predict: "you haven't had a job in 5 years or so have you?"

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by rathore » 10 Sep 2017

Tylore ji,

All subjects must evolve. The basis of Mathematics and newtonian motion across Space and Time cannot evolve, it just is. Our understanding can evolve but the hard sciences mentioned (not soft) reject theories that are illogical, doesn't go with Math or just break the concepts of space / time.

For example Astronomy which is a hard science (and the basis of Astrology) tells us at what relative positions from the Sun do outer planets appear in retrograde motion. So when Saturn is retrograde in 6th from Sun and at some point of time will be in the same Navamsa as Sun.

Question: Is Saturn direct in D9 now? If so, then the same Saturn is in two different motions and that invalidates the first Law of Motion itself! But if one still wants to accept the absurdity then next question - Is it combust in D9? If one accepts that absurdity as well, next question - What Samvatsar is running in D9 now? What Tithi? What Vaar? Just bulldoze the whole Panchang system :mrgreen:

I would only spend time on Astrological magazines, journals especially new theories, methods, concepts sections after spending several years studying actual texts. Sure one can get into 'new revelations' but if they are breaking fundamental laws and postulates then they are not in the realm of Hindu Astrology anymore. This thread is in context of classical texts only.

About your statement of 'good results must have been obtained else the system would have died down' .... here is what is really going on. Most so called 'predictions' are just betting against the odds of life. And many of these bets are good bets statistically speaking.

E.g. if a 20 year old asks about marriage they are told - yes somewhere after 2024. When a 30 year old asks, now the prediction given is anytime in the next 12 months. So if ten people in late twenties ask this question and I give all of them a 1-2 year time frame then my hit rate will be anywhere between 60 to 100%. Don't need Astrology for that. Similarly I can tell ten unemployed people who are desperately looking that you will find a job in the next 3 to 9 months and again my hit rate will be impressive.

Astrologers are not working with zero information so they are able to make calculated guesses. They know the native's age, they can guess their socioeconomic status and their lives by looking at them, by the way the native talks and behaves. Additionally a good amount of info is given by the natives themselves or through questions asked by the Astrologer. Inject some Universal truths, feel good statements, incomplete sentences and you have a recipe for a nice cold reading. I am not saying its done purposefully, I am just saying that the basis of the statement that "D chart system should have died down if it was bad" is questionable.

In India all sorts of people are predicting ... some of them get a deity in them, some are looking at rice grains, others are looking at your clothes while some others smell it, some just look at the photo and what not ... all these are also "systems" that are alive because most of the practitioners are just betting against the odds of life. Outside India they take the form of Psychics, Tarot Card readers etc.

So please only discuss in context of classical texts, otherwise the thread gets diverted.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by tylorechandra » 10 Sep 2017

An alternative view point has been put forward. The thinking forum members can form their own opinions. It is best left to their own thinking abilities.

TKC

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by pank » 14 Sep 2017

very interesting thread to read!

I have a question then how do we use Jaiminii techniques that require navamsa if we are not using varga as rasi?
what is different between karakamsa , swamsa, lagnamsa mentioned in books then without navamsa chart?

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by tylorechandra » 14 Sep 2017

I was wondering why no one brought up this topic earlier. In the BPHS that I have (commentary, annotation and editing by R. Santhanam), free use of rasi names for navamsa is made by the sage (Ch.33 - effects of karakamsas). He also talks of angles, trines and aspects in Navamsa in the same chapter.

Is Navamsa different here ?

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by rathore » 14 Sep 2017

Karakamsa is plotting the navamsa of the Atmakarak to the Rashi in D1. So the Karakamsa chart is the Lagna chart seen from the Karakamsa Lagna. And though some teachers may have made exceptions but there are verses such as if Saturn is in the 7th from Karakamsa and is in 1 to 10 degrees then X result. 10-20: Y result and 20-30: Z result.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by Nitin21 » 15 Sep 2017

rathore wrote:
14 Sep 2017
Karakamsa is plotting the navamsa of the Atmakarak to the Rashi in D1. So the Karakamsa chart is the Lagna chart seen from the Karakamsa Lagna. And though some teachers may have made exceptions but there are verses such as if Saturn is in the 7th from Karakamsa and is in 1 to 10 degrees then X result. 10-20: Y result and 20-30: Z result.

my ak mars is in gemini in navamsa. So mercury is the dispositor. Mercury is in Lagna Aquarius in Rashi D1. So is my karakamsa aquarius here ? please educate.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by pank » 15 Sep 2017

Thank you for the reply

I have seen articles that did talk about certain planet I think it was venus being in certain degrees in karakamsa causes different effect. They were using degree so I was confused since it looked like using d1 chart not d9.

I remember about karakamsa in d1, the KN Rao method.
but I am confuse on what is difference of swamsa or lagnamsa that some sloka mention? I see most websites saying swamsa is AK in the navamsa chart ?

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by GNE » 15 Sep 2017

hey Pank,

There are many different opinions on what is karakamsa and swams exactly, as I'm sure you've noticed around the internet (and in books).

But yes if we take karakamsa in rasi chart,(see AK d9 sign, then read rasi chart from that sign.)
and lagnamsa is the sign of lagna's navamsa (so if you were taurus rising for example, and d9 was "pisces rising", then take pisces location in the rasi chart as lagnamsa)
As for swamsa there are beliefs that it could just mean "either" karakamsa/lagnamsa or AK position in d1,etc... (according to some authors opinions).
Yes others say it's AK's place IN d9 as a chart. ...but we must first know exactly what jaimini is referring to as "swa" here. Could mean AK, or could be lagna, or lagna lord....or arudha, etc..

so best to not based reading varga as a chart on this topic of "well, what is swamsa then?", because even that isn't totally agreed upon by astrologers, so it could just start another endless debate of opinions.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by Rache » 01 Nov 2017

Rathore Ji and Chandralagna ji, it's a great post for learning so much things from you guys..
Now,I have a very simple question which is extremely confusing is that
1-) What is the true aspect of Rahu-Ketu? And do they really have aspect?
Some will say 5,7,9 houses in retro motion from itself, but how can extremely desirous Rahu aspect 7 house from itself to ketu who's a planet of moksha?
2-)In some divisional charts rahu-ketu comes at a single house,like D30,D40,D45 ,so how can two planets aspect each other when ultimately they'll become same.
3-)Aspect of Ketu, according to mythology Ketu is headless, it's only the body so how can ketu aspect/give Drishti if it doesn't have an eye?
4-) Rahu being a class 1 malefic how can have same aspect as of Jupiter which is a class 1 benefic?
It'll be great if Rathore Ji or Chandralagna ji can explain these two simple questions for me..
Thank You.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by rathore » 01 Nov 2017

Rache ji,

As you have discovered that texts differ in terms of nodal aspects. I think aspects are essentially relative positions of a planets including Rahu-Ketu from another Sign. Some 'relative positions' are more influential than others. This means Jupiter has influence on 4th from itself as well, its just that we need to know what and how much, are the results of such influences.

So I would think if a text says Rahu has 11th aspect, then the Yogas given in that text should be considered with Rahu's 11th aspect. If a text says Rahu has 5th aspect then consider it accordingly. Sure there maybe later day additions to the texts as well, therefore doubts linger around nodes.

Since we kn ow aspects are essentially real relative positions of heavenly bodies so it can only happens in D1. So doesn't matter if Rahu-Ketu go to the same Trimsamsa etc.

I wouldn't mix mythology too much with Astrology. Astrological texts are given in very specific contexts and one must not jump that context. So just like there is a Kaal-purush in Astrology, I think there is an Ayurved-Purush (something like that) in Ayurved. These 'Purush' are just models to start explaining the subjects and obviously not some huge guy standing around. And once modeling is used to describe a subject, then deviation from that model leads to strange conclusions. Hence context is vital.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by Rache » 02 Nov 2017

Ok,so one should always look into 5,7,9 aspect of Rahu..
Thank you for the reply Rathore Ji.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by Rache » 02 Nov 2017

Actually the confusion arises because of this new age rules like where some will say 7 aspect,some will say 5,7,9 and even some one will say 12 aspect, actually for me rahu-ketu is the most overrated and confusing part in the astrology.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by Crystalpages » 03 Nov 2017

Aspects (drishti) are about connections or bridges between two entities (planet to planet), an entity and a sector (between planet and a sign/house) or two sectors (sign to sign). Nodes can work well with sign-aspects, if someone has problems with the concept of drishti (sight or glance).
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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by Rache » 03 Nov 2017

Ok,now it sounds better for me..rashi Drishti of nodes,along with its conjunction and dispositor strength will give an complete idea about the nodes functionality specially in case of Ketu..

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by karthik1984 » 01 Apr 2018

Hello Rathore Ji, I wish to talk to you through Email .

Thanks,

Regards,
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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by Gautam59 » 04 Apr 2018

To Rathore Sir,
Sir I'm following your thread from last one year and thus I have gained much information about Divisions. But there is still one question in the back of my mind that the Classics have only told about the technicalities of Divisions and nothing About regarding its interpretations. So keeping technicalities aside I want to ask you that have you yourself tested the working of Divisions in real world? They do really work? Because I have seen around 35-40 Charts (my close relatives) in which atleast 45% of planets were in immical Navamsa but still they got good results in those planetary periods and as well as other good results indicated by those planets. It might also due to the fact that those same planets were placed in their Great Friends Rashi and decent houses in Lagna. So does it means that Placement of planets in Signs of Lagna is more important than placement in certain Navamsa? Even in my personal case my certain planets like Mars and Jupiter are placed in Mercury ruled Navamsa (My Mercury is Combust being within 5 Degrees from Sun) but I never got any bad results (as both the planets are sworn enemy to Mercury especially Mars + Mercury being Combust) or any results related to Mercury in there planetary periods. My Mars Antardasha was quite intense and at the same time was very enjoyable and Good, but still I didn't got any good/bad results related to Mercury, instead my Mars delivered the Pure results just related to it's placement in Rashi and house of Lagna and same with Jupiter as it delivered Excellent results but they were just related to it's placement in Rashi and House of Lagna and results regarding Mercury or its Navamsa were simply absent. So in short I just got the pure results of the planets according to their placements in Lagna and I got nothing related to Virgo or Gemini Navamsa or even of Mercury in theirs Dasha or other general things. By this I actually started doubting the actual significance of Divisions. Do they really determine the strength and results of Planets?Do they really hold much water in Real World? Going by the results I got, it seems Divisions doesn't hold much significance. Also there are no Classical Texts which clearly tells us the methods regarding its interpretations. I think these are just guesses that a certain planet placed in Certain Navamsa or Shastiamsa will give this and that results but behind that there is no support of Classical Texts, in short these are just man made theories, which hold very less water. What's your take Rathore Sir on that? In my view Divisions doesn't stand a chance against Lagna whether it's Navamsa or any other Division.

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