Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

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anuradha
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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by anuradha » 04 Sep 2017

Hi Anuradha,

Sorry I tried to explain in length just for you to understand. But in short "Graha" is something that moves about through Nakshatras (from the perspective of us on Earth).
Its that simple. Hope you can understand this very basic of the basics in an Astrological context.
Meaning is given in the dictionary as planet , may be its a wrong translation
Refrain from going in circles and get your translation checked. And if you can then just answer the simple mathematical question by ChandraLagna.
But since you keep dodging both these things then every reader can gather what you are upto.

Please stop wasting everyone's time if you are just going to go in circles. Mods pease take note. :arrow:
Are you the moderator or administrator to write like this?

Please stick to your own post . Your intention are clear in the following post .
Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi
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Post by rathore » 04 Sep 2017, 07:15

Let's not get into who respects who because we all know how respectful you are. So let's not get into upbringing.

Keep doing your tukkabaazi with explaining away wrong events on correct charts. :lol: :lol: :lol: That is just plain awesome. And keep making unwarranted remarks about me. Love that you made a mockery out of yourself in public. Sorry it happened through my hands. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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A person should not be too honest. Straight trees are cut first and honest people are screwed first.
“Reasoning with a drunkard is like
Going under water with a torch to seek for a drowning man.”

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by rathore » 04 Sep 2017

Let us see the meaning of Lagna in the same dictionary, yeah?

http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mod ... &direct=au

लग्न adj. lagna following closely

So that's it "Lagna" is not what we all thought of in an Astrological context! It turned out to be something entirely different! LOL.
Apply some basic intelligence dude. :mrgreen:

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by Gautam_59 » 04 Sep 2017

Khoo Hock Leong,
Parashara Lights also shows the same thing (Vimposaka Bala) and I think it's the most advanced and genuine software even by far imagination. If Parashar Lights is wrong/ corrupted than I my view no software can be genuine.

ThankYou.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by Khoo Hock Leong » 04 Sep 2017

We go by the prediction efficacy of any technique that deviates little from the classics and the proven classics that have been used all this while with above average results, the latter given less importance than the former, but the latter gives an overall insight on how things work rather quickly.

Then modern techniques, unproven recently unearthed classics, software, general philosophical arguments etc.

Also the latter category even if proven right, does not usually mean the first category is wrong. More likely the case you have to see how overall things meshed together. The 2nd category dors not debunk the 1st category.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by Khoo Hock Leong » 04 Sep 2017

Also Parasara Light was developed some time back.

At that time (around 80s to 90s right up to early 21st century), co-exisisting with the main orthodox techniques, there was a growing group of young people spearheading their own way of thinking one of which was not to read Vagra charts as Rashi charts. So of course you have Parasara Light coming out of it including its enhancements.. It does not mean just that it has been around some time, it is caste in stone, no criticisms can be levelled on it.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by Gautam_59 » 04 Sep 2017

So you want to say that all Astrology Softwares in world are incorrect?? Because most of them shows the same thing and then why to rely on Astrology softwares as we must cast our charts on our own without the use of any softwares?? Than it can also be said that Parashara Light's should be banned because it's cheating on its customers as it charges hefty amount close to Rs. 10,000 from them and can't even provide correct Vimposaka Bala True???? But still I don't know why most of the professional astrologers use it and rely on it heavily instead of being corrupted, as Quoted by Our Junior CS Patel I.e. Shri Khoo Hock Leong(Ji)😂😂😂. One more Question can a planet become Combust in so called D9 "Chart"????

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by anuradha » 04 Sep 2017

Let us see the meaning of Lagna in the same dictionary, yeah?

http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?mod ... &direct=au

लग्न adj. lagna following closely

So that's it "Lagna" is not what we all thought of in an Astrological context! It turned out to be something entirely different! LOL.
Apply some basic intelligence dude. :mrgreen:
Yes I am a learner I can make mistake . I have my credentials and I do not need your endorsement. Prove that you can make a correct prediction and correct all the wrong translations of classical text for the benefit of astrology.
A person should not be too honest. Straight trees are cut first and honest people are screwed first.
“Reasoning with a drunkard is like
Going under water with a torch to seek for a drowning man.”

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by tylorechandra » 04 Sep 2017

Coming back to the main topic of whether a varga chart can be read as a rasi chart, I have a few questions – this time a bit of arithmetic is included :
0-3 deg 20 min, 40- 43 deg 20 min, 80-80 deg 20 min, 120-120 deg 20 min, 160-160 deg 20 min, etc till 320-320deg 20 min (in steps of 40 deg) of the main rasi chart occupy the same sign in Navamsa. Similarly, nine amsas 0f 3 deg 20 min occupy each sign in the Navamsa chart. The question is :
a) would you call the navamsa signs by their rasi sign names ?
b) would you attribute ownerships, exaltation, Moola trikona etc in Navamsa chart ? How can you do so when the sign is consisting of so many broken angles with no continuity ?
c) And yet, do not all classics a) use the same names b) use ownership etc in varga charts ?
d) Is it not true that a Navamsa chart consists of 9 sub charts each covering 40 degrees of the main chart and these are then superimposed to get the whole Navamsa chart ?. Does it not imply that creating a Navamsa chart from the rasi chart is like placing a part (amsa) of each planet (with the planets DNA intact!) in different signs of the rasi chart ? If yes, then would not aspects in Navamsa be valid ?
May be the query is very basic, but I still would like some rational inputs.

TKC

anuradha
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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by anuradha » 04 Sep 2017

Yes, 3.33 degrees in the physical plane (rasi) are mapped to 30 degrees in navamsa. But, once you are seeing navamsa, it is silly to consider it as 3.33 degrees. It is now 30 degrees.

As 3 deg 20 min Aries to 6 deg 40 min Aries is mapped to Taurus, will one say that Taurus has a length of 3 deg 20 min? It still has 30 degrees.

Don't conflate degrees in rasi and divisions.

Best regards,
Narasimha
A person should not be too honest. Straight trees are cut first and honest people are screwed first.
“Reasoning with a drunkard is like
Going under water with a torch to seek for a drowning man.”

GNE
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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by GNE » 05 Sep 2017

Taylor,

to your first question "a" : Yes we would call the navamsa signs by their rasih sign names, as we then map where that sign is in rashi and can see if the planet's navamsa falls in certain houses from the rashi lagna.
Ex: Virgo rising with Venus in Sagittarius but in Virgo navamsa = so venus now has it's navamsa in the 1st house or "lagnasma" .

B: Classics do speak of exaltation navamsa, or a planet being in it's "own" navamsa, so yes. Mooltrikona I guess is just the entire sign now (like venus in libra d9) but someone can correct on that one.

C : I don't see classics using ownership like a planet becoming "5th lord of navamsa" , instead if they do it's only in a more "modern" classic where they use navamsa tulya rasi / rasi tulya navamsa techniques, (overlaying charts... like placing the d9 lagna into the rasi and read the chart from that. or Rasi lagna into navamsa and read from there)

D : I see it similarly to how many read nakshatra.....where say if Moon is in Krittika, then some say it's in the nakshatra of sun - so then we see where sun is placed and say moon is giving some results of sun's position.
So example: Cancer rising with moon in Taurus but in Aquarius navamsa , we say moon has given it's navamsa to the 8th house, but moon is not suddenly also aspecting the 2nd house (from the 8). since moon is not actually there, instead it's sitting in a navamsa/sign that being 8th from lagna; carries with it 8th house results (the sign) from the lagna.
Sort of like with nakshatra moon in krittika does not suddenly mean moon is also throwing an aspect from wherever sun is sitting, (or say sun is conjunct jupiter, it does not create a "moon+jupiter conjunction/gaja kesari" just because moon's nakshatra lord is placed over there)

Sorry that may have all seemed very confusing...I just woke up. ha

I believe varga "charts" started because it was an easy way to create a reference diagram to see what signs every planet's navamsa was in, and specifically to see where those signs fell from the lagna's navamsa sign.
Then astrologers could see which planets were 6/8/12 or kendra,etc from the sign of the lagna's navamsa (note: "navamsa of lagna, not "navamsa-lagna")
Also perhaps originally navamsa "charts" were drawn by using the Rashi lagna as the ascendant, that was astrologers could just see which houses from rasi that planets navamsa fell in (mostly to check any planets falling in 6/8/12 from rashi lagna).

Anyway we will see what other members respond, and prepare for the topic to go crazy again. Lol

And in other news still, people quoting PVR - which is fine - but please tell us why you don't use Pushya paksha ayanamsa then? Since PVR himself is so passionate about it being correct, I assume followers of his would try it out, no?

And Khoo saying we have a group of young people spearheading their own way of thinking that varga charts are not read as rashi.... but in my experience with 2 different very old (70-ish) indian astrologers in real life (neighbors guru and some other one my friend and I went too) they did not use any varga chart to predict, however did check my navamsa planet's sign strength only.
Just saying it's not a "young" thing only. And they said they used techniques from their family/parampara

sure they could be "Wrong" ,like how everyone : KNR , PVR, VPM , etc.. can be "Wrong" too.
*like PP ayanamsa

:mrgreen:

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by anuradha » 05 Sep 2017

And in other news still, people quoting PVR - which is fine - but please tell us why you don't use Pushya paksha ayanamsa then? Since PVR himself is so passionate about it being correct, I assume followers of his would try it out, no?
I have not given the reference of only PVR but the other greats like K.N.R, Gaytri Devi vasudev. Moreover the translation of Mansagri by different scholars[RAMCHANDRA PANDEY AND MADHUKANT JHA] says the same thing.{ aspect in Navmansha] Which you have not seen. Had it being only said by PVR I would have certainly used Pushya PaKSHA AYANAMSHA.
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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by Khoo Hock Leong » 05 Sep 2017

Guatam

Those techniques that rank as above average from the classics giving above average results (and not 100%) is because we as mankind are less than God, so we may not know all the intricacies that the classics has to offer. It does not mean that they are wrong sometime. But with due diligence, we can finally get the hang of it.

That is why this second category of dicta from the classics, I rank it as giving the astrologers great insight on how to analyse the chart.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by ChandraLagna » 05 Sep 2017

anuradha wrote:
04 Sep 2017
Yes, 3.33 degrees in the physical plane (rasi) are mapped to 30 degrees in navamsa. But, once you are seeing navamsa, it is silly to consider it as 3.33 degrees. It is now 30 degrees.

As 3 deg 20 min Aries to 6 deg 40 min Aries is mapped to Taurus, will one say that Taurus has a length of 3 deg 20 min? It still has 30 degrees.

Don't conflate degrees in rasi and divisions.

Best regards,
Narasimha
Undeniable fact: There are 108 navamsas in zodiac.

So as per above theorizing, zodiac is 108X30 = 3240 degrees!

Correct calculation is: Navamsa is 3deg20min and 3.33X108 = 360 degrees.
--भज गोविन्दं... भज गोविन्दं...गोविन्दं भज, मूढमते --

With Regards,
ChandraLagna

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by rathore » 05 Sep 2017

Tylore ji,

Good to see a real contribution here. GNE ji answered the questions as well, but if you are specifically needing to hear from me then:

a) Yes the name for Taurus stays the same in Rashi and Navamsa. The difference is one is a 30 degree Rashi and the other is a 3 deg 20 min navamsa. 108 Navamsas = 12 Rashis.

b) You wouldn't see a text saying that Planet X is 'exalted' in Navamsa. Simply because it can't be (Exaltation is a function of degrees). It will say - the planet is in its 'Exaltation Navamsa'. Note the difference. And when each sign is divided into 9 then those divisions get lordships, just like the zodiac is divided into 12 signs and each 30 degree section gets lordship. Lordship is always of the Rashi or Amsa, the house just overlaps it. Lordship is continuous.. its just that Navamsa (as its drawn) is not a continuous diagram and Rashi chart is a continuous diagram. This is one of the reasons many a people have gotten confused thinking Navamsa is continuous like Rashi. A continuous Navamsa diagram looks like a circle with 108 sections. But that is too cumbersome. And since the same 12 navamsas repeat 9 times, so it can be drawn in a simpler manner (i.e. the way it is drawn).

c) Again ownership is of Rashi or Amsa (the house just overlaps the Rashi). But Rashi and Amsa are not the same thing. Amsa is a division of Rashi and the Rashi is a multiple of amsa. That's how the zodiac has been divided. So if a circle is divided into 4 equal parts with giving each part a name and then this each part is again divided into 4 equal parts and again each part is given the same name, then what's the issue with it? The names are the same but the lengths different.

d) Navamsa is actually the whole 360 degree but as said in point b) for ease its drawn as a 40 degree. And in that diagram it is discontinuous. Planets are just 'points' in the Rashi or amsa. Planets are therefore not divisible like the Rashi, if that is what you meant.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by anuradha » 05 Sep 2017

Navmansha is the 9th part of each rashi i.e degree 2o minutes. When the planet is Vargottama then why it called same In Rashi and Navmansha though it only in the same degree 20 minute not in 30 degree the measure of Rashi. But that is taken as 30 degree is the meaning of the above post by PVR. As per him 3.33[ 3 degree 20 minutes] is taken as 30 degree.
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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by rathore » 05 Sep 2017

Vargottam means Varg + Uttam i.e. Excellent classification. So if a planet is in Taurus Rashi and Taurus Navamsa it means it is in a certain section of the zodiac (Rohini Pada 2) which is classified as excellent. Planets gain additional strengths in such Vargottam areas. Just like planets gain additional strength near deep exaltation.

PVR has assumed that since Taurus is the same name in both Rashi and navamsa so it must be 30 degrees in both. Not only that is messing with absolute Unit of measure (degrees) and inflating the zodiac but anyone considering it seriously needs to think its repercussions. For e.g. now the same planet running its course of 30 degrees in Rashi at a certain speed needs to increase its speed many folds in Navamsa to get through the Navamsa 30 degrees. Otherwise the same Venus in Navamsa will be behind Venus in Rashi. There is only one Venus for God's sake.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by tylorechandra » 05 Sep 2017

@GNE ji:
Regarding c) – It appears to be a case of how the writings are interpreted. When someone says that planet X is in Kuja’s Navamsa, it makes sense to me to assume that the said Navamsa is owned by Kuja.Your other statements about Rasi-Tulya etc are not relevant to the current topic.
Regarding d) – I have gone through a lot of astro literature and also discussed with many other astrologers but I have not come across anyone attributing aspects, yogas etc combining a planet and the nakshatra lord of another.

@ChandraLagna ji:
The fine print is that “Taurus” has a length of 30 degrees, not the nakshatra pada. There are 9 Nakshatra padas in any rasi leading to a total of 30 degrees for the rasi.

@rathore ji:
a) As stated earlier, there are 9 Nakshatra padas in the Navamsa called “Taurus”. So this “Taurus” is also 30 degrees – not 3 degrees 20 minutes.
b) To my understanding, a planet is in its exaltation Navamsa means that it is placed in the Rasi where it exalts in the Rasi chart. Take for e.g Moon. It exalts at 3 degrees in Vrishaba but in Navamsa, gets placed in Makara. It cannot be said to be in its exaltation Navamsa – unless the definition of exaltation is different in Navamsa.
c) Agreed that ownerships are same. This is the precise reason why I specifically mentioned Navamsa as consisting of 9 sub charts overlapped into one. The ownership is then very clear. I do not agree that the lengths of signs in Navamsa is different from that in Rasi. It is, therefore, a matter of perception. Giving same names to many differently sized signs does not appear to be correct.
d) Not agreed. Planets are situated at specific angles from the reference. Many of them, per say, are not mere points. The varga charts simply decide which Varga will contain that specific angle. I am fully aware that planets are not divisible.

TKC

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by ChandraLagna » 05 Sep 2017

tylorechandra wrote:
05 Sep 2017


@ChandraLagna ji:
The fine print is that “Taurus” has a length of 30 degrees, not the nakshatra pada. There are 9 Nakshatra padas in any rasi leading to a total of 30 degrees for the rasi.

TKC
Taylorechandra, these are all well-known facts & there is no fine print here. I was not even responding to your post - please read again what I responded to. There's a claim
But, once you are seeing navamsa, it is silly to consider it as 3.33 degrees. It is now 30 degrees.
which I refuted with math.

Now that you have my attention, let me point out the same flaw in your post.
a) As stated earlier, there are 9 Nakshatra padas in the Navamsa called “Taurus”. So this “Taurus” is also 30 degrees – not 3 degrees 20 minutes.
Completely wrong. A navamsa has no further padas within it. A single navamsa represents a single pada of a nakshatra. Merely drawing a parallel Navamsa "chart" that looks similar to rasi chart has an optical illusion that they are both same and both are 30 degrees. This is plain incorrect. There are 108 nakshatra padas, 108 navamsas in the Zodiac. One navamsa = One nakshatra pada= 3deg20 mins. Period.

Dont confuse, or overlap or do anything with the taurus navamsa in aries rasi with taurus navamsa in taurus rasi; they are separate.
--भज गोविन्दं... भज गोविन्दं...गोविन्दं भज, मूढमते --

With Regards,
ChandraLagna

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by rathore » 05 Sep 2017

Tylore ji,

For visual representation here is what Navamsa diagram looks like in the zodiac.

[IMG]http://i63.tinypic.com/2wfied5.png[/IMG]

a) One can see here that the zodiac is divided into 12 sections. These 12 sections (names starting from Aries) are further divided into 9 subsections. These 9 subsections have the same names starting from Aries. So each of the subsection (such as Aries) repeats 9 times. But as you can see in the diagram SUBSECTION is NOT equal to the SECTION. Subsection is 3 deg 20 mins and Section is 30 degrees.

You said there are 9 nakshatra padas in the Navamsa called Taurus. Not sure if I understood correctly because there are 9 nakshatra padas in the SIGN called Taurus and not Navamsa called Taurus.

b) Yes Moon in Makar Navamsa is not in its exaltation navamsa. It is simply exalted.
When a sloke talks about Moon in own navamsa it means its in Cancer Navamsa (Whatever Rashi it maybe in). Similarly exaltation navamsa is Taurus (Whatever Rashi Moon maybe in).

For e.g. there is a Yog: If Moon is in own navamsa and aspected by Jupiter and its day time the person will be wealthy. It means Moon maybe in any Rashi and is aspected by Jupiter in day time and goes on to occupy Cancer navamsa, the native will be wealthy.

c) The attached visual representation should clear the doubts, or at least I hope it does.

Units of Measure such as KM, Degrees, KG etc. are absolute and therefore devoid of perceptional differences. The zodiac around us is divided into 360 absolute degrees. From there it can only be subdivided and not inflated.

One can have 3 kids and name them X, Y, Z and each of them can have 3 kids each and name them X,Y, Z. It is therefore the basis of Astrology, the postulation that each sign is divided into 9 parts and the part names keep repeating. If we reject a postulate then we have rejected the subject itself. Keep in mind 'Degrees' are absolute just like Kilometers.

d) From an Astrological perspective, planets are points. This is why they transit from one sign to the other in less than a second (and not minutes, hours) when its time. From a cosmology perspective Sun and Moon obviously are not points.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by tylorechandra » 05 Sep 2017

I get a feeling that our perceptive differences are irreconcilable.I am not convinced by your line of argument at all. To me, it seems illogical. It is better for me to simply continue to believe what I perceive as correct.
Thank you all.

TKC

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by rathore » 06 Sep 2017

No problem Sir.

It is not an opinion or perception, it just is the way it is. It is the only model that has zero inconsistencies while the D 'chart' model has many. This statement is for others (not trying to convince you). But if anyone can find an inconsistency please let me know.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by GNE » 06 Sep 2017

Taylor,
Me mentioning navamsa tulya rasi/rasi tulya navamsa is fitting and relevant of the whole "how to read varga's?" topic of this thread (you said it wasn't relevant. ...perhaps not to your questions, but even still it wasn't like I went way off topic completely). When I answer questions I also give more information than needed so that other readers/lurkers can learn more and/or have more points and concepts said to them so they can decide for themselves which is right or wrong. :)

Oh and sorry I must have not typed clearly regarding the nakshatra lord stuff, so there was miscommunication. = Yes I know there is no text talking about aspects from one to another...I was mocking people (on forums/facebook groups I've seen...) who have written about nakshatra lords doing those things.
Basically I was saying that it is NOT what happens - so technically we are in agreement, because yes, there is no literature / classic that mentions nakshatra lord placement/aspect/yoga stuff. Just the same as there is not one mentioning aspects within a Varga or new yoga's formed inside a varga.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by Lex » 06 Sep 2017

CL ji, Rathore

What we wanted to debate, aspects in Navamsa ( you will find in this thread a poster in place of Navamsa writes as Navmansha, if traditional astrology to be followed first pronounce and writings to be aligned with Sanskrit, if challenged, Sanskrit spoken dictionary will throw at us , than will give vague reasoning like typo etc, if one time time ok, but it is in multiple times happened of Navmansha)
Now CL gave a astrological mathematics and a logical and scientific way for debate

As usual, poster will drag outside personalities in this debate of aspect in Varga chart. It proves, mathematical skills is bereft in debate. If Poster has come to party for debate, than cry baby attitude should not be there

I point blankly said, there are no aspects in Varga charts that includes Navamsa. Debate turned to all over place to strength of planets, like Vargottama. A vargottama not only seen in navamsa but also seen when a planet occupies in vargas of that sign whether in Mesha or Rishabha in vargas of Drekkana, Navamsa etc, also said to be vargottama, similarly Bhavattoma

Aspects debates went to Surya siddhanta, but poster cannot able to reply mathematic debate of astrology, which was presented. Without astrological mathematics understand, a person cannot learn astrology. Budha, a karaka for Jyotisham. It should be strong to understand evil cascading teachings of aspects in Varga charts.

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by anuradha » 06 Sep 2017

As usual, poster will drag outside personalities in this debate of aspect in Varga chart. It proves, mathematical skills is bereft in debate. If Poster has come to party for debate, than cry baby attitude should not be there
Aspects debates went to Surya siddhanta, but poster cannot able to reply mathematic debate of astrology, which was presented. Without astrological mathematics understand, a person cannot learn astrology. Budha, a karaka for Jyotisham. It should be strong to understand evil cascading teachings of aspects in Varga charts.
I accept Mr Lex that I do not know astrology and my Mercury is weak. No further debate on this please.
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Going under water with a torch to seek for a drowning man.”

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Re: Vargas are NOT to be read as Rashi

Post by SWARNIM » 06 Sep 2017

It is not good to compel anybody to follow our views, howsoever correct we may be. If Jyotisha were only related to mathematical calculations, every mathematician or even a computing machine would have been a great astrologer. Further, we need to keep in mind the qualities of Daivagya as narrated by Shri Varah Mihir and others. With due regards to all knowledgeable persons in this forum, would request everyone to respect the views of others especially if one is a lady.

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