Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

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astrolearner15
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Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by astrolearner15 » 09 Nov 2016

I have seen many top astrologers like Joni Patry and Komilla Sutton say that retrograde and exalted planets act like debilitated and vice versa.
Have astrologers on this site found this rule to work?



marian i.
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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by marian i. » 10 Nov 2016

Hi,

Yes, this rule always works.

Exalted+ retrograde= debilitated;
Debilitated+ retrograde= exalted.

Retrograde means "the opposite results", astrologicaly. Also, for all the retrograde planets this rule works. If someone has Jupiter in Gemini retrograde, he will act like Jupiter in Saggitarius. The worst placements are of natural malefic planets in kendra, in own house but retrograde. Hell on earth type of results.
The rule is given in a book which is considered authoritative (I forgat for now the title/ author of that book).

Regards,
M

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by GNE » 10 Nov 2016

If this concept does work,
would a debilitated retro 9th lord in a kendra as = exalted 9th lord in kendra,
thus a lakshmi yoga(If venus/lagna lord is also strong), for example?

Also what about neechbhanga, if an exalted but retrograde planet is conjunct the lord of the sign in a kendra , or an exalted retrograde planet is conjunct a debilitated retrograde planet - both are giving each other a cancellation technically speaking. It is worth research / testing.

I myself feel there is no difference (exalted retro is still exalted...) but then I haven't tested that out on too many charts to say for sure.

Obama's chart would then have 'hell on earth' results from his Retrograde saturn in capricorn, no?

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by marian i. » 10 Nov 2016

Hi,

My understanding is that this rule realy works. Thus, my answer is Yes for the first 2 issues: Lakshmi Yoga and Neechbhanga. I think that we can try this on charts.

In Obama's chart, both Jupiter and Saturn are retrograde. Thus, as per above rule, Jupiter debilitated but retrograde act like an exalted planet. Also, Saturn by retrogradation is like if is in Cancer, a great Rasi for Saturn in 1st or 10th houses. It is considered a great Raja Yoga. See the charts of A. Hitler (Saturn in 10th in Cancer); Napoleon (Saturn in 10th in Cancer); Indira Gandhi (Saturn in Lagna in Cancer); Bill Clinton (Saturn in Lagna in Cancer) etc.
Thus, Obama is having heaven on earth type of results in his life.

Regards,
M

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by astrolearner15 » 11 Nov 2016

I have seen many examples of retrograde and debilitated working as exalted, but few of exalted and retro working as debilitated, hence my doubt.
I know of a few charts with mercury retrograde in Virgo but the persons concerned had decent results, not bad. I know of the same placement giving bad results to two people due to tough aspects.

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by marian i. » 11 Nov 2016

Hi,

If you can, maybe you will put some charts about which you are unsure, on this issue, for all of us to learn.

[Small off-topic: I do not have the right to access the P.M. box, thus I cannot read the messages sent by members.]

Regards,
M

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by GNE » 12 Nov 2016

There's Bachchan's chart, where exalted mercury is retrograde. If it's "debilitated" now, then would that not severly weaken the chart since it's the dispositor of many things and does not get any significant neecha bhanga. ? It would also be 5th lord debilitated for him.
His saturn also retrograde in taurus....using this concept it would be as though it's in Scorpio, which is much worse for it

Though I'm not too confident in his birthtime, even though 99% of people agree to use the one with aquarius lagna.
But even with birthtime change, mercury would likely be either 7 or 9th lord, still very important and troublesome if acting debilitated in his case

Sure he had some career setback in mercury dasha, but did not fall too far and also had a good number of success's too. Any issue I would think could be explained by mercury's placement itself + Transit at the time (or other dasha too..chara, yogini...) And not just that mercury is acting debilitated now. But that's just my opnion.
http://www.astrosage.com/celebrity-horo ... -chart.asp

Of course I am not rebuking the concept over just one chart.
Would be great to test on more examples too.

I would share my chart but it is confusing (there's an exalted+debilited retrograde planet conjunct one another...so even if the exalted one becomes deb, and vice versa...they still are giving each other a neech bhanga + they are in kendra)

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by astrolearner15 » 12 Nov 2016

marian i. wrote:Hi,

If you can, maybe you will put some charts about which you are unsure, on this issue, for all of us to learn.

[Small off-topic: I do not have the right to access the P.M. box, thus I cannot read the messages sent by members.]

Regards,
M
Hi Marian
The charts are of family members and a friend, so I will have to ask them first.
I will check with them and post the charts if they are ok with it.
I will also look for more charts of public figures.

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by astrolearner15 » 12 Nov 2016

GNE wrote:There's Bachchan's chart, where exalted mercury is retrograde. If it's "debilitated" now, then would that not severly weaken the chart since it's the dispositor of many things and does not get any significant neecha bhanga. ? It would also be 5th lord debilitated for him.
His saturn also retrograde in taurus....using this concept it would be as though it's in Scorpio, which is much worse for it

Though I'm not too confident in his birthtime, even though 99% of people agree to use the one with aquarius lagna.
But even with birthtime change, mercury would likely be either 7 or 9th lord, still very important and troublesome if acting debilitated in his case

Sure he had some career setback in mercury dasha, but did not fall too far and also had a good number of success's too. Any issue I would think could be explained by mercury's placement itself + Transit at the time (or other dasha too..chara, yogini...) And not just that mercury is acting debilitated now. But that's just my opnion.
http://www.astrosage.com/celebrity-horo ... -chart.asp

Of course I am not rebuking the concept over just one chart.
Would be great to test on more examples too.

I would share my chart but it is confusing (there's an exalted+debilited retrograde planet conjunct one another...so even if the exalted one becomes deb, and vice versa...they still are giving each other a neech bhanga + they are in kendra)
Thank you for sharing. Didn't he get KBC in Mercury dasha? 90s were bad for him, yes.

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by lightray94 » 12 Nov 2016

Dear members,
If in that case shahrukh khan has saturn (r) in aquarius at 17.14 degrees, even though you can see his following and sasa yoga coming to play.
Note: highest mooltrikon degrees for saturn is 17-20 in aquarius.

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by marian i. » 13 Nov 2016

Hi,

First I want to say something about A. Bachchan's chart.
It looks like a weak chart at a first glance, but it is not so. Jupiter is the ruler of 2nd and 11th houses, exalted and in Vargottama and aspects Lagna by Rasi Drishti: this gives Srimanta Yoga (wealth). The strenght of Jupiter gave a lot of money. Jupiter is in 10th from Moon- great fame and he is even worshiped like a God in some temple.

Dwi-saptati sama dasa (applicable if lagna lord is in 7th or 7th lord is in lagna):

Maha Dasas:

Rah: 1939-11-24 (2:05:49 pm) - 1948-11-23 (9:27:47 pm)
Sun: 1948-11-23 (9:27:47 pm) - 1957-11-24 (4:44:08 am)
Moon: 1957-11-24 (4:44:08 am) - 1966-11-24 (12:10:31 pm)
Mars: 1966-11-24 (12:10:31 pm) - 1975-11-24 (7:36:11 pm)
Merc: 1975-11-24 (7:36:11 pm) - 1984-11-24 (3:02:18 am)
Jup: 1984-11-24 (3:02:18 am) - 1993-11-24 (10:11:03 am)
Ven: 1993-11-24 (10:11:03 am) - 2002-11-24 (5:45:02 pm)
Sat: 2002-11-24 (5:45:02 pm) - 2011-11-25 (1:09:01 am)

I will use this Dasa because Rahu as co lord of Aquarius is in the 7th house. His rise came in Mars and Mercury Dasas. Both planets are in 8th house with Yogakaraka Venus and Sun. Sun is the 7th lord, marriage, and with karaka Venus gave marriage to him. Mercury is the 5th lord- children were born to him in that period. In Virgo with these planets are UL (marriage) and A5 (children).

For the issue of this thread this chart is not very helpful to see the results of Mercury retrograde in Virgo. In that sign are 2 lords of kendras and 2 lord of trikonas. Venus is also Yogakaraka. Thus, all the houses ruled by these planets are benefited, even in the case of Mercury retrograde in exaltation, because even if a planet is badly placed if is yuti with lords of trikona/ Yogakaraka planets, that planet will be benefited (Parasara).
One Yoga says that if the 2nd Lord is debilitated and also aspected by another debilitated planet one is a beggar. But, if a debilitated planet is aspected/ yuti by a trikona lord, good results will follow. It is like if to that homeless beggar with 2nd in debility some rich person has made a donation of a big some of money (yuti with trikona lords etc): he will not remain a beggar. The houses/ planets yuti/ aspected by trikona lords/ Yogakarakas are dipped in Nectar.

Regards,
M

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by npl » 13 Nov 2016

Hello Members,

I don't have much knowledge about astrology, but what about Rahu and Ketu? They both are always retrograde still the results are seen from normal prospect. Please share your views on it.

Regards,
Npl.

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by lekha » 15 Nov 2016

So if one has Rahu in Taurus and automatically Ketu in Scorpio......how do we perceive it.
do we see as two retrograde exalted planets aspecting ....so they act as debilitated?

Then what's the point of Rahu being exalted in any sign, as it automatically is aspected by exalted ketu and as they are retrograde.always.....they are debilitated?

Confused newbie.....
Lekha

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by lordmihira » 15 Nov 2016

Rahu and ketu they move in apasavya (retro motion)

that dictum exalted + retrograde = debilitated is for 7 planets
and not for Nodes (rahu & ketu)

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by marian i. » 16 Nov 2016

Hi,

Thus, we have a list of charts for study:
1. Shahrukh Khan;
2. Kevin Costner;
3. Kurt Cobain;
4. Jimmi Hendrix;
5. Elizabeth Taylor;
6. Denzel Washinghton;
8. Edward Kennedy;
9. Diana Ross.

Of these, I am sure about the t.o.b. only in the case of Kurt Cobain (Leo Lagna) and Elizabeth Taylor (Scorpio Lagna). Let's see these charts one by one, for all of us to learn something.

Thus, who wants to show in the case of Shahrukh Khan, from his chart:
- that he has 3 children;
- that he has an elder sister;
- that his wife is from another community/ religion;
- the job of his wife;
- his career as an actor etc.


Regards,
M

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by astrolearner15 » 17 Nov 2016

In the case of Mercury, isn't it both exalted and mooltrikona in Virgo? So does the latter help?

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by GNE » 18 Nov 2016

Sorry I cannot reply long, very busy at the moment but I will just say, thank you very much for the reply marian.
I'd like to add Audrey Hepburn to the list - retrograde exalted yogakaraka venus in the 2nd house.

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by GNE » 18 Nov 2016

True Jan,
At first I was thinking venus seems exalted because of her face - but I know not to blame "1 factor" for someone's appearance that way, however it does seem more exalted for reasons you mentioned.

The father troubles may also be Ketu in 9 + the fact that 9th lord is 6th from itself, whereas 4th lord is 11th from itself...
Again, not that this is the only factor to cause these things. Just at a glance it seems more obvious there could be father issues without needing to blame the Retrogression of Venus in her chart.

another chart , Marlon Brando. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Brando,_Marlon
Exalted retrograde Saturn.

3rd lord too.... many say that is the lord of 'acting'/media. Certainly not acting debilitated for him (considered by most - at least in north america - to be the best actor of all time).

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by GNE » 19 Nov 2016

Good points Jan,
I could see that being a possibility for sure - that an exalted retro planet still acts exalted but may slow down(or stop) giving such good results over time, and vice versa for a retrograde debilitated planet.

Though for that I feel we'd have to test on some charts of people who went through the time periods of the exalted or deb. retro planets. It is difficult with celebrities sometimes, since we cannot talk to them and ask how they felt the time truly was to them, or how much they "Struggled". We just see the end result.

Denzel's 4th lord/house is clearly exalted indeed: https://billionaireaddresses.files.word ... =590&h=462
(That is an ariel view of his estate)

With so many conflicting opinions on retrograde planet results among the classics, it is certainly an area where I feel people should not say " oh some planet is retrograd = so it is always bad." (or always good. ...or whatever the person believes) since really, they don't know for sure.

The topic is a close one to me because I have 3 retrograde planets, one is debilited+retro (mercury), the other is exalted+retro (venus). :shock: (and the third is saturn in scorpio).
It is difficult to judge from my own chart - first of all, because my lagna on a cusp so not 100% sure which that is.
and second of all, I have not really lived long enough to say without a doubt how the retrograde planets have behaved.

If I did have to judge based on my life up to now though, I'd say Saturn still acts as though it's in scorpio, Mercury and venus are both exalted but the yoga/results are delayed due to retrograde. lol that's just how it feels.
(exalted based on house rulership results and during their AD or PD phases that I've had, it's always been a good (or even the best) time in my life)

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by marian i. » 21 Nov 2016

Hi,

"If a planet is retrograde while in exaltation, it produces no effect (i.e. nothing good will happen). This is the view held by some. Even if it is in exaltation by its entry in retograde motion from the next sign (for ex, Jupiter entering Cancer from Leo), the effect is the same, for it takes unduly time in such traversion" ("Saravali" 5.14).

"A retrograde planet will yield results similar to that of one posited in another's (i.e. enemy's) amsa" ("Narada Purana" 55.176).

The translation of Narada Purana is done by a layman, not an astrologer. Thus, that sloka can mean that all retrograde planets gives the effect of placement in the opposite Rasi (ex. Jupiter in Cancer acts like Jupiter in Capricorn). This is the view of some important astrologers of our time.

Ex: In the case of Kurt Cobain, Saturn with exalted Venus in 8th house shows medium life, but the 8th Lord Jupiter is exalted but retrograde. For Leo Lagna this placement of Jupiter gives long life, but not for Jupiter retrograde. Of course, the rules for longevity given by Parashara/ Jaimini shows short life for this chart.

Dear Gne, you don't know your real Lagna? It is very easy for a case with Lagna close to Rasi sandhi to reactify the chart. You have some thread about it on the forum?

When we study Vedas or Vedangas, we must consult three sources: Guru, Sastras and Sadhus. I think that the two quotes from above hints at this rule for all the retrograde planets. Also, the learned astrologers of today gives the same rule. And they are Guru also in astrological field.

Regards,
M

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by GNE » 21 Nov 2016

Marian,
You are correct, I am not 100% sure of my lagna. It is either Gemini or Cancer.
I have had rectifications with a few astrologers aswell as forum threads and it has still remained unclear. Some astrologers sweat by Gemini, others select Cancer for me. One issue I think is they all mostly use rectification with vimshottari dasha , which i find is not reliable (most can (and have) talked themselves into make any event fit any chart of mine)

I even had two astrologers see me in person and check my palm/face, and one said 'for sure' I am Gemini. But another (on a different day) said Cancer. :?

But when I imagine my chart as either gemini or cancer, either way the retrograde exalted venus seems to be giving good effect (at least during it's AD/PD) , and just in general when I read what an exalted venus does to a native's life it seems to match me more than when I read about debilitated venus.
Sure I am not married yet and am 31 years old, but in both charts I can see reasons for delay of marriage without looking at venus acting debilitated.
Also if we follow what some believe, that retrograde = delay, then could be that simply (venus retro = delay of love/marriage). As until only recently I never cared much for finding love or marriage.

it is also confusing in my chart since Venus is giving NeechaBhanga to mercury...but if we reverse which is 'exalted' because of retrogression, mercury is sort of giving neechabhanga to venus. lol

There is a book "mystery of retrograde planets" by MG Katswar , that has a compilation of various sloka's from classics/sages on retrograde. In it we see there are many conflicting views even among them.
Some say retrograde benefics in any sign are more benefic / and malefics more malefic... etc.

One is Brihat Jatak, says 'when five planets, mercury, mars, jupiter, saturn and venus are retrograde, they acquire more strength'

now depends on what we take 'strength' as....but generally most think strength = more positive (or gives more results). like when talking about shadbal strength.


Jatak Tatva - mahadeva,
states: "Retrograde planets or those in exaltation possess great strength".

now it's saying OR those in exaltation of course, not retrograde+exalted...but still, mentions it being a good thing similar to exaltation in a way (mentioned along side it as way to make a planet strong)

it also has a sloka that says: " if benefics are retrograde, they bestow a kingdom and wealth. while malefics cause harma and evil".

The book shows Saravali also saying a similar sloka (benefic retrograde = giving kingdom/wealth..malefic=more malefic)
Along with the sloka Marian wrote from saravali.

but then Bhavartha Ratnakar - Ramanujacharya, says:
"Malefic planets when retrograde give auspicious results".

...

some text called the Bhavamanjari (mukunda daivajna) states:
"Benefic planets when placed in exaltation and retrograde become more benefic and very strong. Malefic planet become more malefic".

Sarvarth Chintamani lists results of the dasha of each retrograde planet, basically benefic ones (mer, ven, jup) give recognition, honor, wealth, etc.. and malefic mars/sat retrograde dasha brings failure, unhappiness,etc..
according to this.
But no mention of the result changing if debilitated or exalted

Another text called "Jyotish Jatva Prakash, chapter 2, sloka 90, says: " malefic retrograde planets are very evil and benefic retrograde planets are very good".


anyway, there is more, but basically all repeat similarly.

Thing about malefic being more malefic, I don't agree with if following vimshottari dasha - since I've seen many celebrities charts (aswell as some family members) who had the best times/rise in life during the Dasha of retrograde Saturn or mars. (especially in saturn...seen many rise during retrograde saturn MD.)

so...still a topic worth testing / researching, as we're doing.

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by marian i. » 23 Nov 2016

Hi,

Yes, many books gives different rules to judge a retrograde planet. This maybe is due to the inffluence of Kali Yuga, which brings, as per shastras, this splitting tendency among people/ nations/ religions and even in the understanding of Vedas/ Vedangas given in the books of Sages/ Gurus etc.
But, if we have a problem with the Shastras, we must consult Gurus and Sadhus. Guru means your teacher (if you/ we have one) and Sadhu means some other authorities on the subjects. What is their's opinion on this? For me Pt Sanjay Rath is a great teacher/ authority on this subject, so I follow his teachings. He gives this rule: if a planet is retrograde it will give the results as if it is in the opposite Rasi.

Maybe we can understand/ see also, another rules related with this issue. If a planet is retrograde and exalted, we must look or not at some combination for Necchabanga or not? And also, in the Nadi texts, if in a chart Mercury, Venus and Saturn are togheter they are strong, because they are friends. Also for Sun, Mars and Jupiter if they are togheter. In the chart of A. Bachchan Mercury and Venus are togheter in the Sign of Mercury, thus they are strong. Also, in your chart Venus and Mercury are togheter in Pisces, the Sign of exaltation for Venus, thus they both are strong, even without looking at the Graha Yuddha or their's retrogradation state. If Mercury is defeated in Graha Yuddha, still Venus is a friend of Mercury, thus is helping him. Or, if Venus is weak being exalted but retrograde, he is helped by Mercury, his friend. Also, Saturn is in the same direction (trikona house) from Venus- Mercury, being the friend of Mercury and Venus (this is a also a great Dhana Yoga in Nadis).


Regards,
M

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by GNE » 24 Nov 2016

True Marian, (regarding guru/sadhu opinion...)

Of course because you follow Sanjay Rath, that is great reason to follow his teaching, but as goes for anyone's guru - just because they say something doesn't make it 100%, until tested over many many charts and working probably 80% or more, ideally.
I am not saying Sanjay is wrong of course, I have no right even to say that. Like every opinion on retrograde planets in this thread, it all is just a "it might be this way..." to me.

The points you bring up about mercury/venus/saturn being friendly to one another and thus not harming much is accurate though, I must agree. As it is also mentioned in shastras / classic texts. And a very good point I was overlooking....the fact that in bachchan (and my chart) case the planets are with best friends, further in my case mercury/venus have no other aspect of any malefic, using both Rashi or Graha aspect. And the Saturn in trine, thank you for mentioning. I have a book on Nadi but have not really read it in detail yet, however I do recall them mentioning planets in trine if are friends, sort of acts like a conjunction/aspect type of yoga together.

Anyway,
Back to the retrograde debilitated = exalted, and vice versa...
I think it would help if we could find other charts with a more simple "lone retrograde exalted planet" (not conjunct), to judge results, especially if the person was through the mahadasha of such planet.

I think Elizabeth Taylor is a great case study... Retrograde exalted Jupiter alone in the 9th.
And it was near the start of Jupiter Mahadasha (Jup-Sat) she rose to fame and achieved stardom. There is an article(paid article..) from this site on actors and the 3rd house that talks about her rise and success during jupiter dasha

Thank you for all your replies so far.
Last edited by GNE on 24 Nov 2016, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by GNE » 24 Nov 2016

Question just came to me, Marian,

Do you know if Sanjay Rath considers the concept of retrograde acting like the sign across from it in varga charts too?
Ex: Saturn in Leo navamsa (or any varga) retrograde, so it's acting like being in Aquarius, and thus is really great. ?

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Re: Retrograde and Exalted = Debilitated?

Post by marian i. » 25 Nov 2016

Hi,

Jan,
Kurt Cobain had his great period in Saturn- Venus. Venus is the 10th lord exalted- fame as an entertainer. Saturn with Venus shows his downfall, also. That success was like a big rock hanging on his weak mind and great sensibility. It was to much for him, he was an anti- rock star, and for the same reason, he was so great (in his field). Saturn with Venus (in Pisces) makes one very wealthy- he was in that period. Saturn is so bad for a Leo Lagna, as the 6th/ 7th lord, and also Venus is in Jupiter Nakshatra. Jupiter is the 5th house- stomach, and is very weak (what we discuss here) in 8th from 5th house in 12th house - self undoing house, exalted but retrograde. He suffered greatly from some digestive/ stomachial disease which became very painful in that period prior to his death.
[The education (primary school) is shown by the 4th house. Mars is the lord of 4th placed in 12th from 4th in Satru Rasi- he gave up school. Ketu in 3rd afflicts the agility of hands, but with Yogakaraka Mars shows a great guitarist also (Venus the 3rd lord is exalted). AL is in Taurus- entertainer/ voice, with Venus exalted in 11th from AL aspected by Moon- singer/ vocalist/ poet etc. Exaltation of Venus shows very big gains. Sun aspects the 3rd house from AL & Lagna- death by fire/ bullet. Sun is Lagna Lord with Mercury, AK planet, thus suicide. Jupiter in 3rd from AL shows death in a room being conscious/ aware that he is going to die (suicide). Saturn with the Lord of 6th from AL shows a drug addict. Etc.]

GNE,
Yes, this rule is applicable also in all divisional charts.

P.S. The primary education is shown by the 4th house. The MahaPurusha Yogas are formed only from Lagna, not from Moon. Both these points are from classics.


Regards,
M

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