Question to all astrologers - About Poor people

[Balwinder]

Has anybody looked at the horoscope of poor people whom you are in contact with? There are so many unfortunate people in our country. My question is - are there yogas or placements which lead to poverty? Like daridra yoga or kemadruma yoga. How can such yogas be present for some many millions of people who are poor in our country?

[Suresh_Chauhan]

Balwinder

It is interesting you ask this question. First let us talk about poverty itself, and then maybe what causes it, yogas or doshas etc.

There is physical poverty - like you see in India, Bangladesh, Asian and mideast countries, where people do not have assets, no roof over the head, no belongings, daily life is a struggle - this is poverty of the body, and affects a person the most. Your mind cannot think on an empty stomach, and even if someone offered you a great job, you still first need to get fed, get some clothes to wear, and then perhaps think about how you will get to the job and perform it.

Then there is mental poverty as seen in the West, America, Europe where the people have lots of luxuries, government-provided services, free healthcare in some countries, etc. But they also have a lot of mental illnesses like depression, bipolar, suicidal, manias and phobias, etc. It causes them to fall off the tracks, the marriage may break apart, violence and physical aggression is there, and other problems. Its just that the manifestation of mental poverty is different due to different socio-economic factors.

Poverty in India is a social illness - there is NO WILL on the part of people to change, to improve, to uplift themselves. Country has plenty of natural and physical resources, but the people lack collective willpower, direction, etc. So we say, the entire nation's destiny is in tatters. They will not go anywhere! Some other countries, have many physical resouces but few natural ones (Japan, China) and through sheer effort build up the living standrads of their citizens. Yet others (Saudi, Dubai, etc.) have abundant natural resources, they in turn import laborers and try to build a better future for themselves.

Doshas in the chart can indicate a downfall (leading to poverty, death-like suffering, loss of assets, etc.). When a person is born into poverty, they are simply victims of "desh kaal patra" - your birth circumstances have made you a victim, not any actions you took or decisions you made. This will NOT be reflected in the chart, indeed the charts of poor people also promise dozens of textbook yogas. But 9 out of 10 times, right dashas (opportunities, events, crossing paths with right people) will not come in their life, or if they come, will not be able to benefit from it, or soome other such unfortunate thing. So the average poor person, will face TWICE as many difficulties as someone with similar chart but born in a well-educated and middle class family. They face many more hurdles - physical, financial, social, educational - to get the simplest things, whereas you and I may not.

The same poor person if born and living in a rich country will have shelter to live in, free food offered to him, perhaps donations by the church also. again desh, kaal, patra in effect - the physical needs of a poor are better met in Western countries than in third world countries. Almost always, where you end up in life has a LOT to do with where/how you started, with whom, under what conditions, etc. -- you have a good headstart, it means you have BETTER chances of finishing ahead of others, nothing more.

Do you agree? What is your explanation for poverty yogas?? I think daridra doshas only indicate difficulties and arishtas (bad conditions) but do not dictate the final results. Those will depend on specific individual's chart and circumstances. A so-so job in a great company that pays 1 crore a year, is better than being the CEO in an average company, lot of responsibilities, stress, politics etc, and pay is only 1 lakh. Which would you prefer?? let us also hear what others have to say.

[Balwinder]

Dear Suresh

Thanks for your reply. I agree with your observations and your explanations. I think desh kaal patra provides the context for astrology. In a sense this is a limitation of astrology, because astrology cannot override desh, kaal, patra. But on the other hand, this also means that individuals have freedom to act in the way they want - within their own limitations, of course. We are neither totally bound by fate, nor are we completely free.

If a country is at war - like during World War 2 which killed millions of people. Did the charts of all these people show that they would die. Or during the Bengal famine of 1943? Or recently when the Yazidi communities were destroyed by fanatics? I am sure if you examined the charts of many people from these places, you would not have seen any danger coming to them.

But maybe our astrologer friends could attempt to answer another question -

Will we ever see the end of material poverty in our country?

I do agree about the observations made above about mental poverty in rich countries, but I think that our Hindu philosophy is more than capable of dealing with the problems of the modern world. That is why yoga & meditation have become popular in the more affluent part of the world. So if we can improve our living standards - i.e. do away with physical poverty, then I think we can also deal with the problems which affluence brings.

[Suresh_Chauhan]

There is mundane astrology for predicting world events, famines, earthquakes, etc generally determined by the transits of the heavy planets, jupiter and Saturn. Every 20 years, they're in same house, every 60 years, in same sign... etc.

At individual level, there is horary astrology which most people are interested to get "predictions" - when will i marry, how will be my spouse, how much money I can make, etc. That is such wrong application, but fashioanble in INdia (because we are always looking for short cuts.). Its real purpose is internal analysis, self-awareness, trying to find out, one's own strengths and weaknesses, and then taking actions to correct them. But you don't find most people trying that, and our astro friends take full advantage of it .

About free will, you're right - the quota differs by chart. You may have 20% free will, and 80% unchangeable fate, I may have 70% free will, the rest being fate, etc...that is generally accepted. If you are familiar the with Maslows hierarchy of needs, it says that you can become free to think and rise to 4th and 5th levels only after your basic needs such as food, shelter, etc are met. In India, 500 million people cannot get food every day, some have to beg daily. Whats the use of astrology in this case? What can it change? nothing.

Achieving change on such massive scale requires turnover of many many generations, or some sort of big catastrophic event, which forces people to change. That is why we will not see it in our lifetimes.

[hari766]

But maybe our astrologer friends could attempt to answer another question -

Will we ever see the end of material poverty in our country?

I do agree about the observations made above about mental poverty in rich countries, but I think that our Hindu philosophy is more than capable of dealing with the problems of the modern world. That is why yoga & meditation have become popular in the more affluent part of the world. So if we can improve our living standards - i.e. do away with physical poverty, then I think we can also deal with the problems which affluence brings.

Balwinderji,
By all accounts, for long periods in history, India stood in front of the richest nations of the world. Of course, there were famines, internecine wars etc but the products "made in India" had the biggest "selling value" amongst other countries. As an astrologer you know these things are cyclical in the horoscope of a country, with regular ups and downs, just like the Saturn dasa following Jupiter dasa. From your note, I think you are a believer in the Hindu philosophy, spirituality, the words of the sages. Then let me quote them "India is presently at a stage where she has crossed the worst of material poverty, subjugation and humiliation at the hands of foreigners, and she is slowly rising up. It will take a few more centuries perhaps but she will definitely rise again to be at the leading position of world countries, in both spiritual knowledge as well as material advancements, in short, just like the way she used to be in the past" - so say (not me of course, but) them saints of India who have that "Trikala Jnana yoga"

[hari766]

The first AD of every dasa has a habit of following the trend of the previous dasa, although, technically the new dasa has started already. Likewise, I would see the present day issues (material poverty in India is just one among them. I would include caste/religious politics, corruption and a host of well known issues) as the vestiges of the earlier horrible bad dasa but which will lead us to a much better future

[Balwinder]

What chart should one follow for India? The 1947 chart is limited in its scope. We are one of the oldest nations in the world. Which chart to use? 1947, 1950 or some older significant date.

There is a British astrologer called Marjorie who once suggested a using the date 1 January 1877, 12 pm Delhi. Of course, Indian readers did not like the suggestion, but Marjorie said it's best to use older charts whenever possible.

Another significant earlier date in India's history was 1st November 1858, Allahabad. Time may have been 12 pm. This is when East Indian Company Rule ended and the Brits directly took control of the administration.

The justification for using older dates is that even if Indians were being ruled by a foreign power, we thought of ourselves as a nation & we knew that we Indians would eventually fight for our freedom.

So here are 2 interesting dates which astrologers on the forum could try to use for India charts.

[Crystalpages]

Balwinder ji,

Thanks for your very interesting and intriguing sharing!

Jyotish (not sure about other astrological systems...) believes in reincarnation and past-life karmas and similar belief frameworks.

As per that belief system individuals are born several times and do tend to carry certain continuing threads, themes and tendencies, etc. Yet most rely on the birth epoch of current lifetime to delve into the divinatory deciphering for a nativity...?

Now, for the most part, very few (if any?) would know about earlier birth-epochs of any given nativity (jatak) and so we use the most recent birth-epoch available and even in that we keep hearing and reading quibbles about "what is the most representative birth-epoch?"

In the case of Nations, the situation is different and several birth-dates (epochs) might be available through documented historical accounts and even ToBs if recent...

I suppose some of the folks who are into mundane (political-National) astrology might try out your suggested alternative epoch and share their thoughts and opinions...

[Crystalpages]

Hari jee,

I have also heard from some practicing astrologers who maintain that the last AD of previous MD often shows the trends and tendencies (harbingers...?) of the next MD to follow...

One wonders, of course, if the factor operating in both cases has to do with the different ayanamshas that a wide body of jyotishis use, or have used...?

The first AD of every dasa has a habit of following the trend of the previous dasa, although, technically the new dasa has started already...