Free Will and Remedial Measures - March 24, 2006

[Basab]

Thank you, Krishna, I have read this article before. I agree with Mr. Rao, destiny can be changed to some extent, with remedial measures. If you have noticed, I have removed my signature, which said: "destiny is predestined." About myself, I don't go for remedies, not because I don't believe in it, but because I am a lazy person. I will any day prefer to surrender to destiny than try to change it.

[Nitin21]

Dear Basab,

Keep it up buddy. This approach will open up new avenues for you in life. . Fighting up with laziness is not a big thing. Today or tomorrow you will overcome that too. It's a big and good first step. Always there for help if you need. Just give a holler.

Regards
Sonu

Thank you, Krishna, I have read this article before. I agree with Mr. Rao, destiny can be changed to some extent, with remedial measures. If you have noticed, I have removed my signature, which said: "destiny is predestined." About myself, I don't go for remedies, not because I don't believe in it, but because I am a lazy person. I will any day prefer to surrender to destiny than try to change it.

[Vaughn Paul]

Hi Cjappu and all,
Thanks for posting this great quite of Raoji. It does a good job of putting it into perspective. I just posted in inspirational quote on homepage from psychic seer Edgar Cayce:

“No action of any planet or any of the phases of the Sun, Moon or any of the heavenly bodies surpass the rule of man's individual will power." ~ Edgar Cayce

This is another perspective. I like to believe it, but believe it only in part. I like what Raoji said about us having the ability to change it within an orb or range of predetermination. Vaughn Paul

[Nitin21]

Dear Vaughnji,

Can we make topics like this "Sticky" ?

Regards
Sonu

[Basab]

destiny is experience because of past assertion of free-will and present free-will is action which creates a future destiny.

Krishna,

What about people like me who has surrendered to destiny and not using his free will? You are saying that our free will creates our future destiny, so will I not have any future destiny as I am not using my free will? Will I not take any birth anymore because I will not be creating future destiny for myself, not using my free will?

Now one more thing I would like to share with you all. Destiny cannot be compared to luck. Having a good destiny is not being plain lucky, like winning a jackpot without any hard work. I once remember having a chat with my mom about this. I told her that how strong your birth chart is, you have to work hard to achive success. I gave her the example of many successful people. I asked her what she thinks their charts must be like? She said their charts must be fantastic. I asked her then that did they achieve all their success without working, just because they had strong charts? And I said to her that if you have a good destiny, good karmas behind you, you still need to work to get success. You need to work really hard. She asked me then, then doesn't one get the success promised in the birth chart if one sits idle? I said they won't be able to sit idle--destiny will not let them sit idle. It will make them work hard and achieve the success that has been promised in their charts. So putting effort is also most of the time destined, though many people think that it is free will.

If a person is running the period of exalted 10th lord in the 10th house, without any affliction to it, will he be able to sit back idle, even if he wants to? He will not be able to do that. Destiny will push him into work. And if the person doesn't believe in destiny he will tell other people with arrogance, "See, I am working and so getting success", when he doesn't know that it was always destined that he would work and get success as a result, and it was not his choice at all.

[Basab]

Keep it up buddy. This approach will open up new avenues for you in life. . Fighting up with laziness is not a big thing. Today or tomorrow you will overcome that too. It's a big and good first step. Always there for help if you need. Just give a holler.

Thanks, Astrosonu. But I will stick to my beliefs. It has taken me a lot of suffering to come to this present belief of mine about destiny, so I will not at any cost change it. I have believed in putting efforts and not bothered about destiny for the first 26 years of my life, and I have seen how much I have suffered, so I am not going to repeat that mistake again. I feel it God's greatest gift to me, the present belief I have of surrendering to destiny, so I always will pray to God that this belief of mine never changes. But that doesn't mean, that I am going to sit idle and do nothing to improve myself, even if I get the opportunity for that. I don't think there is any person in this world who will sit back and chant the mantra, 'destiny is predestined' and sit idle, even if he gets the chance to achieve success in life, even if he has to work hard for it. I definitely believe in working hard, and I have always said that you can't get something, without working for it. I don't believe in miracles, I believe in looking at life in a practical way. And now that I am sitting back, I am not sitting back because I am running a negative planetary period, and I am waiting for a good planetary period, to start working. No, it is not at all like that. The last 6 months I have not even checked my chart even once, and I am trying my best to see that I don't see my chart ever because I don't want to get affected by what my chart say, anymore.

Everyone has misunderstood the reason I have always said, 'destiny is predestined'. I will tell you the reason once again. I have been the most intolerant person, always, up to when I was 26 years old. I always found it difficult to accept my suffering, my failure in everything. I would get very frustrated, with every failure and with all my failures in life. My parents were unhappy about this behaviour of mine. I was tired mentally, and I kept on crying over my suffering, and then the miracle happened. It's God's kindness. In mid 2006, I took out an abridged version of 'Mahabharata' from my bookshelf, which had been there for many, many years. I was going through the worst phase in my life then, and I thought, what better time to read this book, but now? I read the book, it talked about destiny, that it had to be accepted, and though my dad had said that line, 'destiny is predestined' 1000 times before me, I had not been able to accept it the way I accepted it then, when I read about it in the book. So everything happens at the right time. I was a changed person after I read the book, and my parents were simply amazed seeing the change in me. They welcomed it. From then, every time I have suffered, I have just told myself it is my destiny, I have to accept it, and I have accepted it much better. I do break down a lot of times even now, and I find it difficult to accept many difficulties even now, but I am doing much, much now than I used to earlier. So I am not saying that I plan to sit back and do nothing. I will definitely take every opportunity that comes my way, and I know any one in my place will. No one wants to sit and suffer all his life, neither do I.

[Basab]

Then, ain't I doing the right thing, Krishna, not using my free will and not letting any chance of any future destiny get created for me? That way one day or the other my accumulated past karmas will be exhausted, but there won't be any future karma to exhaust as I am not using my free will. I think it is not so easy because free will is not just about working hard, or about putting effort. If it was so then, the idle person would be thought of as the wisest and the one with the greatest wisdom because by not doing any work, or free will, he would not be creating any new karma and thus get salvation soon.

No one in this world can stay without doing karma, which you are calling free will. Even a person who is lying in his bed and doing nothing is also doing a karma--of taking rest. Even thinking about something is a karma, and our mind cannot stay even a monent without thinking something. I am also doing karma every minute, even though I am not doing any job or not putting any serious effort in anything. That's the reason it is said that once you devote yourself to God completely, you get salvation because then the only karma you are doing is, thinking of God and this one karma doesn't lead to future birth or create new destiny for you.

If all of the accumulated past karma are exhausted in this one birth, then there will not be future births. That is why in the stories of Mahatmas who attain Moksha, we read about so much of suffering - they burn out all of the residual past karma in the present birth so that they need not be born again.

[Basab]

Krishna,

I remember reading something similar about life that every moment there are many paths to choose from, but all of them, except one, is extremely difficult, and so, most of the time a person will choose that one path which is comparatively easier, making destiny get the upper hand over free will.

About the ad. if you think of it in context of how destiny works, then the friend will be throwing ropes of different lengths, and the person will choose the rope that comes nearest to him, not bothering about the other ones, which are short and far away from him.

On a lighter note, an example on destiny vs free-will with offense to none ...

There's this ad that comes quite frequently on TV these days in which a guy is hanging from a cliff and shouts to his friend above to throw the rope .. "abhey, rassi phenk !!!" His friend throws down many ropes but that only increases this guy's desperation because he has a choice of many ropes and does not know which one to grab.

Destiny has given him many ropes to grab on to but he has to select only one of these many ropes by using his own free-will.

[Basab]

Krishna,

You didn't read my post attentively. I said, "That's the reason it is said". Many things are said, but whether we can follow it or not, is a different issue altogether.

Basab poiinted out ...

That's the reason it is said that once you devote yourself to God completely, you get salvation because then the only karma you are doing is, thinking of God and this one karma doesn't lead to future birth or create new destiny for you.

We choose out of our own free will how much good karma to pick up in the current lifetime and similarly how much of our time and effort to devote to God.

[Basab]

Krishna,

According to me, what is said is advice, and what one does is destiny. If you give a lot of good advice to a person with an afflicted 9th house and an afflicted Jupiter, the advice will fall into deaf ears, and if you give the same advice to a person with a strong 9th house and a strong Jupiter, the person will follow them blindly.

Basab,

It is said is the destiny part if it and whether to follow it of not is a choice of free-will.

Thanks and Regards,
Krishna

[Basab]

Krishna,

Just like five fingers are different, so every persons thinking is different. And I understand that.

[Nitin21]

Dear Basab,

I do not have slightest of doubt that Destiny is predestined. You should have that logo in your signature without a second thought. It looks like you have understood free-will as an act to work against destiny and the wishes of the 9 planets that govern us. If not then we should not be having this discussion, as we concur. If yes, then it is against my beliefs, so I should not debate on this matter.

Regards
Sonu

[Basab]

Hi Sonu,

I really don't know what free will means in reality because every person has his own definition of it. I believe in destiny a lot, and it has helped me a lot in accepting failures. When I say I believe in destiny, I am not supporting fatalism in any way. And I believe in this saying that 'there is no substitute for hard work'.

About why I removed my signature, 'destiny is predestined, there is a reason, which I will write soon if I can express it properly.

[Nitin21]

I believe in destiny a lot, and it has helped me a lot in accepting failures. When I say I believe in destiny, I am not supporting fatalism in any way. And I believe in this saying that 'there is no substitute for hard work'.

That sums up everything Basab. You are on the right track. God bless you.

[Basab]

That was always the point I wanted to make, Astrosonu.

[Basab]

Basab, your problem was you became kind of obsessed with that signature due to some hidden fears due to the negative aspects of Rahu-Moon and Saturn-Moon combination. Add to that there is no aspect of any natural benefic there like Jupiter or Venus. That was the only wrong thing on your part.

Anupamji,

You have answered your question about why I removed the signature on destiny in your post itself: the above quoted lines answers it. I thought this was the first step to get out of the obsession.

And about my belief, I am glad that you have understood what I meant by that line, and you approve of it also. I don't know about others, they may not approve of it, but then, I am not here to change anyone's beliefs.

[Nitin21]

That was always the point I wanted to make, Astrosonu.

Dear Basab,

But it was'nt coming out in practice, what you are feeling now. You are more receptive now. With all the deflection of help by other members, it was only fatalism that was coming to the fore earlier. If you have surrendered to God completely, then I guess offer of help and advice should have been accepted also, and surrendered yourself to God on that matter. the only thing I could not understand was, why surrender to pain yourself and fight to not come out of the pain.. I cannot see the surrender to the Lord here. Infact, when Lord is sending good wishes and remedies by destiny to you, by free-will you deflected those. I am sorry, I am just trying to understand where the complexity is, so please don't take it to heart. IMO, If i was you and surrendering was my trait attributed to the Lord, I would have surrendered to my friends as well to help me out, thinking of that as predestiny. Why fight when the motive is surrender ?

Regards
Sonu

[Basab]

Astrosonu,

I am not a fatalist, and I am that. I am indifferent about God, but I talk to Him too. I am lazy, but I can be active if the need be. I know it is confusing but that is how it is like. 2 contradictory thoughts run in my mind all the time. One is to look at life logic-wise, and the other to look at life destiny-wise. It has always been like this for me from the very beginning.

I would like to ask you something: do you think me an illiterate person with no concept of doctors and medicines because otherwise I don’t really understand why you people started giving advice to me when I am with this problem for 13 years now? The remedies that you have talked about have been tried by me in the first few years itself, and I was expecting you all to understand that much and not give those same advices. But it seemed to me like you all thought that this guy, that is me, is such a dumb-rose that he has not even gone to a doctor even once and has not tried any of the alternative therapies even once, so now that you guys have told me about it for the first time, I will do some treatment, after sitting idle and not going to any doctor for 13 years, and get okay. That’s the impression I got, which made me irritated.
Now coming to astrological remedies, well, I don’t have any belief in them. I will better suffer all my life, with the problem I have, than go for astrological remedies. I am not at all a believer of them. I am not interested in doing any mantra remedies or praying to God. One of my friends come to my house, once every month and tells me that if I pray to God, He will surely help me. And I tell him that I don’t want any help from God. I am happy without His help. That doesn’t mean I disrespect Him, but this that I don’t need His help. I am happy without that. I talk to Him sometimes, and I share my problems with Him, but then, I never ask Him to help me. And He knows best why I don’t ask for His help—as He knows everything.

About free will, I don’t believe in it. I believe in working hard but not in free will. Free will is always about fighting with destiny, and I don’t believe in that. I believe when the time comes for you to work, you can’t sit back and relax. I don’t know why, though I have said this again and again, people still don’t understand me. I don’t feel like writing here anymore because I think it a waste of time trying to make people understand what I mean, which I don’t find necessary at all. See, if a person is running the period of exalted 3rd lord, will you be able to make the person sit and rest and do nothing? You won’t be able to do that because destiny will never let the person sit back and relax in that period. If a person is running the period of 10th lord exalted and unafflicted and well placed, will you be able to keep the person from working hard and making a good career? You won’t be able to because destiny will make the person work and achieve success. And such is the ingratitude of the person if he doesn’t believe in destiny and astrology that he will say it is him who is putting his effort and getting success when there are thousands of people, who put more effort than him and fail big time because they have a heavily afflicted 10th house or a bad birth chart over all. But now, even though I believe in that, I don’t lead my life keeping that in my mind. I lead my life logically and don’t let the planets and their influence come to my mind a single time. That’s why I don’t even see my birth chart and don’t even try to remember, which planetary period I am running or which planet is placed where in my chart. I am trying to forget my chart completely. I have always led my life with practical thinking, and I am going to do that always. As Krishna had said to Arjuna in Gita (as per an article I had read) that do your work with this belief that you are the doer, but know this to be the truth that everything is happening as it was destined.

About surrendering, don’t look at it in a spiritual perspective, but in a logical perspective. A crippled person, who has been told by a doctor that he can never walk, will stop trying to walk, but can't be called a fatalist. Surrendering to a problem, which doesn't have a cure, doesn't make a person a fatalist and doesn't mean he is surrendering to destiny. Yes, I say I have surrendered to destiny, but I don’t mean it in that way. I have surrendered to the problem I have because there is no hope for it to get cured.

Why don’t you understand that I have given up trying because all the doctors I have been to, have not been able to show me a solution to the problem! I have tried for 8 years, man—8 years!! Now, let me live in peace, please! I have never asked anyone for advice, so why are you all bothering me again and again with you views!

I am not a kid! I am a 30 year old guy, and I know what is right, and what is wrong for me. When I am sitting at home, it means, all the efforts have failed. And I am not that kind of a person, who will keep on trying to find a solution to a problem, which has no solution, unless there is a miracle, and I am too practical to expect a miracle in my life. So please, I request you not to try to help me out. If you want to see me in peace, don’t give me any advice ever.

And about my belief, I think I have explained it: destiny is everything as per me, and there is no scope for free will there. But I also believe that nothing can be achieved without hard work, and a person will not be able to stop himself from working hard, if it is written in his destiny. Hard work, I don't believe, is done as per a person's own will but as per destiny's will.

why surrender to pain yourself and fight to not come out of the pain..

By surrendering to pain, I am exhausting my past life karma.

Infact, when Lord is sending good wishes and remedies by destiny to you, by free-will you deflected those

How are you so confident that Lord is trying to help me? How can you be so confident that destiny is not again teasing me, giving me hope so that I become hopeful, and then, give me disappointment?

When I had gone to one of the best homeopathic doctors in my city, he had told me that he would cure my problem in 6 months and had written in his prescription that he is giving a guarantee that he will cure me because he has cured many people with the same problem I had. I had thought then that God was trying to help me. And I with all sincerity took the medicines for 6 months, but I was not cured!! I took the medicine for another 2 months when he asked me to continue, and still, nothing happened. And then, he said that he didn't know why I was having the problem!!

I had pheimosis, and I had to go for surgery for it, and I was told by my GP that my problem was happening due to pheimosis that I had, and if I do surgery, I will become okay. I got the surgery done with a lot of hope, thanking God for helping the doctor identify the problem, and even though the surgery got done, the problem still continued. And the doctor said that he had guessed it could be the reason and was wrong!!

So how do I believe that what you are saying is going to help me, and it won't be the repeat of the last two times when I was given hope and bluffed by destiny!

[Nitin21]

This is the summary of your whole post. The Rahu-moon combo has done you big time. Anyways, God bless you my friend.

I am not a fatalist, and I am that. I am indifferent about God, but I talk to Him too. I am lazy, but I can be active if the need be. I have surrendered myself to destiny, and I have not. I know it is confusing but that is how it is like. 2 contradictory thoughts run in my mind all the time. One is to look at life logic-wise, and the other to look at life destiny-wise. It has always been like this for me from the very beginning.

[Basab]

Thanks, Astrosonu. I am exhausting my bad karma from my previous life, which is shown as Rahu-Moon in my birth chart, and I am glad that God has given me this much sense to let myself exhaust it by accepting all my suffering than resist it. And one more thing, it's really amazing, your confidence, about the way you come to conclusion about people's nature--but I can understand, you can't help it: your strong Mars has to show its confidence about everything.

This is the summary of your whole post. The Rahu-moon combo has done you big time. Anyways, God bless you my friend.

[krishnagopal1968]

Anupam ji,

You said..............
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Majority of the people would say in the past we used our free will, hence, the karmas and finally suffering. But can anybody tell why they used that 'Free will' in a particular direction!!! Once this truth may dawn upon them, the whole new definition of 'free will' may come to the fore and ultimately we may find we were doing nothing but taking rounds and rounds in a vicious circle. We all are mere puppets in the hands of our samskaras once we get the ability to go above them all then we can talk about free will. Before that it is an endless debate that may not reach anywhere. No matter how many scriptures we may quote or reasons, logic write down here."
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This sums up all! Sad that nobody discusses about it. That is ok too.

Thanks for sharing this insight.

krishna...............

[Narayan]

Dearest Anupamji:

Yes you are right there...I am also feeling the same. Nobody is virtually understanding the main root of all this whole world or I should say the correct meaning and instead of that mind and ego is playing and creating that heat. So, I have decided also not to write anymore because it is just going the other way round. What another interesting thing I have found is because of this ego, some persons are writing here just to create a stamp mark who want respect, name, and fame, and want to be obeyed as a king. I wonder how much the ego and mind is making these persons as a doll.

Especially I have noticed whenever a spiritual talk has been started, the other ego raises up saying "Hello, who are you to judge me" "I am the king here" "You do not know nothing" "Simply follow me" "I am the master of masters" and it ends in a heat. But the root person is simply watching all this and laughing

The problem Anupamji what I find is "there is no receptive learning happening here bcoz some are considering himself/herself as the ultimate knowledagable person" "Since this is a vast sea as I what I have come across, I feel a strong desire and a receptive learning should be there inborn and also real humbleness which comes from the root to be at this stage in each so as to copy it in real life and also a very strong desire to merge at the root" Since this is not there, I wonder how it does not lead to heated discussions?

Sometimes a 5-year-old kid will be more knowledgable than an 50-year-old person and might be he might be having a greater spark inside than the aged person. So, my point is even if a 5-year-old kid says something and if there is something to learn from it, one should take it in a humble way to be pasted in our lives so that we can become more polite and humble inwards. That kind of receptiveness should be there inside, but unfortunately it is not there, which is all leading to such unwanted things.

For some, it is like he/she is barking some nuisance and come on guys, lets just poke him and we also clap at him/her, but this is not the right way in right sense.

When i tell this Anupamji, I would like to quote a few things from Ramana Maharishi.

Even after attained Ramana Maharishi the real state, as you know, Maharishi most of the times stayed in Mauna and most of the times remained in a Cave called "Vashistha Guha" in Thiruvannamalai. Even there, to distract Maharishi's attention, some children those days even throwed stones at Maharishi and on occasions, pasted #2 on the back part of the body to test Maharishi's patience when maharishi was in samadhi. When maharishi returns from samadhi after long time, it is the people who came across who reminded of the acts of children, but even then Maharishi did not even responded at all. Maharishi simply had a huge smile.

Such things have even happened to Maharishi, we are not even a bug when compared to Maharishi. But, what I am learning from here is that, because of such things, the inside part is getting more matured and a great learning.

Regards


Narayanan

[krishnagopal1968]

Thanks for the response Anupam ji.

I remember , Kn rao ji discouraging one (I think her name is Priyambada Agarwal) good woman astrologer, when she wanted to join some astrology forums, as most of forum astrologers argue endlessly....

I think if they do this on a long run ,then they self ruin their astrological abilities.

Your intermittent posts are most welcome and sanity prevails atleast to me!


krishna...............

[nggm]

Respected Anupam ji,

Just had a question-

When you say the free will is also predestined and everything is there in one's horoscope, does it also predestined which area this Free-Will be utilized for? I mean if a chart shows 2 or 3 problems eg. financial and childbirth together or relationship and education together etc, can this predestined free-will be used for both the problems in a chart or only predestined to use for one of them and not for the other if one wants to make sure that his energy is not wasted in a wrong channel or fixed problem?

[nggm]

Yes Anupam ji,

I was talking about human free-will, materialistic life is so complex to understand the other
I am happy to have answer from you. Will wait for your answer.

Thanks
Sarika