Free Will and Remedial Measures - March 24, 2006

[Nitin21]

That was always the point I wanted to make, Astrosonu.

Dear Basab,

But it was'nt coming out in practice, what you are feeling now. You are more receptive now. With all the deflection of help by other members, it was only fatalism that was coming to the fore earlier. If you have surrendered to God completely, then I guess offer of help and advice should have been accepted also, and surrendered yourself to God on that matter. the only thing I could not understand was, why surrender to pain yourself and fight to not come out of the pain.. I cannot see the surrender to the Lord here. Infact, when Lord is sending good wishes and remedies by destiny to you, by free-will you deflected those. I am sorry, I am just trying to understand where the complexity is, so please don't take it to heart. IMO, If i was you and surrendering was my trait attributed to the Lord, I would have surrendered to my friends as well to help me out, thinking of that as predestiny. Why fight when the motive is surrender ?

Regards
Sonu

[Basab]

Astrosonu,

I am not a fatalist, and I am that. I am indifferent about God, but I talk to Him too. I am lazy, but I can be active if the need be. I know it is confusing but that is how it is like. 2 contradictory thoughts run in my mind all the time. One is to look at life logic-wise, and the other to look at life destiny-wise. It has always been like this for me from the very beginning.

I would like to ask you something: do you think me an illiterate person with no concept of doctors and medicines because otherwise I don’t really understand why you people started giving advice to me when I am with this problem for 13 years now? The remedies that you have talked about have been tried by me in the first few years itself, and I was expecting you all to understand that much and not give those same advices. But it seemed to me like you all thought that this guy, that is me, is such a dumb-rose that he has not even gone to a doctor even once and has not tried any of the alternative therapies even once, so now that you guys have told me about it for the first time, I will do some treatment, after sitting idle and not going to any doctor for 13 years, and get okay. That’s the impression I got, which made me irritated.
Now coming to astrological remedies, well, I don’t have any belief in them. I will better suffer all my life, with the problem I have, than go for astrological remedies. I am not at all a believer of them. I am not interested in doing any mantra remedies or praying to God. One of my friends come to my house, once every month and tells me that if I pray to God, He will surely help me. And I tell him that I don’t want any help from God. I am happy without His help. That doesn’t mean I disrespect Him, but this that I don’t need His help. I am happy without that. I talk to Him sometimes, and I share my problems with Him, but then, I never ask Him to help me. And He knows best why I don’t ask for His help—as He knows everything.

About free will, I don’t believe in it. I believe in working hard but not in free will. Free will is always about fighting with destiny, and I don’t believe in that. I believe when the time comes for you to work, you can’t sit back and relax. I don’t know why, though I have said this again and again, people still don’t understand me. I don’t feel like writing here anymore because I think it a waste of time trying to make people understand what I mean, which I don’t find necessary at all. See, if a person is running the period of exalted 3rd lord, will you be able to make the person sit and rest and do nothing? You won’t be able to do that because destiny will never let the person sit back and relax in that period. If a person is running the period of 10th lord exalted and unafflicted and well placed, will you be able to keep the person from working hard and making a good career? You won’t be able to because destiny will make the person work and achieve success. And such is the ingratitude of the person if he doesn’t believe in destiny and astrology that he will say it is him who is putting his effort and getting success when there are thousands of people, who put more effort than him and fail big time because they have a heavily afflicted 10th house or a bad birth chart over all. But now, even though I believe in that, I don’t lead my life keeping that in my mind. I lead my life logically and don’t let the planets and their influence come to my mind a single time. That’s why I don’t even see my birth chart and don’t even try to remember, which planetary period I am running or which planet is placed where in my chart. I am trying to forget my chart completely. I have always led my life with practical thinking, and I am going to do that always. As Krishna had said to Arjuna in Gita (as per an article I had read) that do your work with this belief that you are the doer, but know this to be the truth that everything is happening as it was destined.

About surrendering, don’t look at it in a spiritual perspective, but in a logical perspective. A crippled person, who has been told by a doctor that he can never walk, will stop trying to walk, but can't be called a fatalist. Surrendering to a problem, which doesn't have a cure, doesn't make a person a fatalist and doesn't mean he is surrendering to destiny. Yes, I say I have surrendered to destiny, but I don’t mean it in that way. I have surrendered to the problem I have because there is no hope for it to get cured.

Why don’t you understand that I have given up trying because all the doctors I have been to, have not been able to show me a solution to the problem! I have tried for 8 years, man—8 years!! Now, let me live in peace, please! I have never asked anyone for advice, so why are you all bothering me again and again with you views!

I am not a kid! I am a 30 year old guy, and I know what is right, and what is wrong for me. When I am sitting at home, it means, all the efforts have failed. And I am not that kind of a person, who will keep on trying to find a solution to a problem, which has no solution, unless there is a miracle, and I am too practical to expect a miracle in my life. So please, I request you not to try to help me out. If you want to see me in peace, don’t give me any advice ever.

And about my belief, I think I have explained it: destiny is everything as per me, and there is no scope for free will there. But I also believe that nothing can be achieved without hard work, and a person will not be able to stop himself from working hard, if it is written in his destiny. Hard work, I don't believe, is done as per a person's own will but as per destiny's will.

why surrender to pain yourself and fight to not come out of the pain..

By surrendering to pain, I am exhausting my past life karma.

Infact, when Lord is sending good wishes and remedies by destiny to you, by free-will you deflected those

How are you so confident that Lord is trying to help me? How can you be so confident that destiny is not again teasing me, giving me hope so that I become hopeful, and then, give me disappointment?

When I had gone to one of the best homeopathic doctors in my city, he had told me that he would cure my problem in 6 months and had written in his prescription that he is giving a guarantee that he will cure me because he has cured many people with the same problem I had. I had thought then that God was trying to help me. And I with all sincerity took the medicines for 6 months, but I was not cured!! I took the medicine for another 2 months when he asked me to continue, and still, nothing happened. And then, he said that he didn't know why I was having the problem!!

I had pheimosis, and I had to go for surgery for it, and I was told by my GP that my problem was happening due to pheimosis that I had, and if I do surgery, I will become okay. I got the surgery done with a lot of hope, thanking God for helping the doctor identify the problem, and even though the surgery got done, the problem still continued. And the doctor said that he had guessed it could be the reason and was wrong!!

So how do I believe that what you are saying is going to help me, and it won't be the repeat of the last two times when I was given hope and bluffed by destiny!

[Nitin21]

This is the summary of your whole post. The Rahu-moon combo has done you big time. Anyways, God bless you my friend.

I am not a fatalist, and I am that. I am indifferent about God, but I talk to Him too. I am lazy, but I can be active if the need be. I have surrendered myself to destiny, and I have not. I know it is confusing but that is how it is like. 2 contradictory thoughts run in my mind all the time. One is to look at life logic-wise, and the other to look at life destiny-wise. It has always been like this for me from the very beginning.

[Basab]

Thanks, Astrosonu. I am exhausting my bad karma from my previous life, which is shown as Rahu-Moon in my birth chart, and I am glad that God has given me this much sense to let myself exhaust it by accepting all my suffering than resist it. And one more thing, it's really amazing, your confidence, about the way you come to conclusion about people's nature--but I can understand, you can't help it: your strong Mars has to show its confidence about everything.

This is the summary of your whole post. The Rahu-moon combo has done you big time. Anyways, God bless you my friend.

[krishnagopal1968]

Anupam ji,

You said..............
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Majority of the people would say in the past we used our free will, hence, the karmas and finally suffering. But can anybody tell why they used that 'Free will' in a particular direction!!! Once this truth may dawn upon them, the whole new definition of 'free will' may come to the fore and ultimately we may find we were doing nothing but taking rounds and rounds in a vicious circle. We all are mere puppets in the hands of our samskaras once we get the ability to go above them all then we can talk about free will. Before that it is an endless debate that may not reach anywhere. No matter how many scriptures we may quote or reasons, logic write down here."
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This sums up all! Sad that nobody discusses about it. That is ok too.

Thanks for sharing this insight.

krishna...............

[Narayan]

Dearest Anupamji:

Yes you are right there...I am also feeling the same. Nobody is virtually understanding the main root of all this whole world or I should say the correct meaning and instead of that mind and ego is playing and creating that heat. So, I have decided also not to write anymore because it is just going the other way round. What another interesting thing I have found is because of this ego, some persons are writing here just to create a stamp mark who want respect, name, and fame, and want to be obeyed as a king. I wonder how much the ego and mind is making these persons as a doll.

Especially I have noticed whenever a spiritual talk has been started, the other ego raises up saying "Hello, who are you to judge me" "I am the king here" "You do not know nothing" "Simply follow me" "I am the master of masters" and it ends in a heat. But the root person is simply watching all this and laughing

The problem Anupamji what I find is "there is no receptive learning happening here bcoz some are considering himself/herself as the ultimate knowledagable person" "Since this is a vast sea as I what I have come across, I feel a strong desire and a receptive learning should be there inborn and also real humbleness which comes from the root to be at this stage in each so as to copy it in real life and also a very strong desire to merge at the root" Since this is not there, I wonder how it does not lead to heated discussions?

Sometimes a 5-year-old kid will be more knowledgable than an 50-year-old person and might be he might be having a greater spark inside than the aged person. So, my point is even if a 5-year-old kid says something and if there is something to learn from it, one should take it in a humble way to be pasted in our lives so that we can become more polite and humble inwards. That kind of receptiveness should be there inside, but unfortunately it is not there, which is all leading to such unwanted things.

For some, it is like he/she is barking some nuisance and come on guys, lets just poke him and we also clap at him/her, but this is not the right way in right sense.

When i tell this Anupamji, I would like to quote a few things from Ramana Maharishi.

Even after attained Ramana Maharishi the real state, as you know, Maharishi most of the times stayed in Mauna and most of the times remained in a Cave called "Vashistha Guha" in Thiruvannamalai. Even there, to distract Maharishi's attention, some children those days even throwed stones at Maharishi and on occasions, pasted #2 on the back part of the body to test Maharishi's patience when maharishi was in samadhi. When maharishi returns from samadhi after long time, it is the people who came across who reminded of the acts of children, but even then Maharishi did not even responded at all. Maharishi simply had a huge smile.

Such things have even happened to Maharishi, we are not even a bug when compared to Maharishi. But, what I am learning from here is that, because of such things, the inside part is getting more matured and a great learning.

Regards


Narayanan

[krishnagopal1968]

Thanks for the response Anupam ji.

I remember , Kn rao ji discouraging one (I think her name is Priyambada Agarwal) good woman astrologer, when she wanted to join some astrology forums, as most of forum astrologers argue endlessly....

I think if they do this on a long run ,then they self ruin their astrological abilities.

Your intermittent posts are most welcome and sanity prevails atleast to me!


krishna...............

[nggm]

Respected Anupam ji,

Just had a question-

When you say the free will is also predestined and everything is there in one's horoscope, does it also predestined which area this Free-Will be utilized for? I mean if a chart shows 2 or 3 problems eg. financial and childbirth together or relationship and education together etc, can this predestined free-will be used for both the problems in a chart or only predestined to use for one of them and not for the other if one wants to make sure that his energy is not wasted in a wrong channel or fixed problem?

[nggm]

Yes Anupam ji,

I was talking about human free-will, materialistic life is so complex to understand the other
I am happy to have answer from you. Will wait for your answer.

Thanks
Sarika

[Narayan]

Dear Maheshji:

Though you asked this to respected Anupamji, I would like to have my inputs. Anupamji, sorry for interfering to the question asked to you.

"Once all debts/deposits are cleared, we are free to do whatever we like. But, such a free-soul, as long as it is active, has to do some work (with the help of mind and body) which again gets debited in a new account. So, unless a Soul stops working (actions), the karmic cycle and the indicator (horoscope and planets) has to be alive and active."

First of all understand, soul does not do anything. It is the mind which is always in action, unaware of the base it is in. "Once all debts or deposits are cleared, then no more karma is formed as the soul will completely take over u" and from that time onwards, whatever u do with the help of the mind Maheshji, absolutely no karma is formed, but then u wont also hardly do from that point onwards. Even your speech will be very deliberate and limited as well. Unless the words come from within, u wont be speaking up and that is the state from that point onwards.

"unless a Soul stops working (actions), the karmic cycle and the indicator (horoscope and planets) has to be alive and active."

Wrong....the mind is one which has to stop working. Mind is nothing, but a place where all sorts of thoughts arise and subside plus a point where all actions happen. It is not an organ or object. Mind works on the basis of past samskaras plus whatever u create or think or act upon thinking in this body. So, Karmic cycle is active only till time when u are in material plane or called as in mind.

Soul is beyond Karmic cycle, so that's why when one's mind subsides into its root or merges into its root, then mind wont behave anymore like it was earlier as it is under the mouth of the soul and hence no more karma is performed after that. After that, where is the question of thought process and thinking happening? Memory and brain wont think anymore as it will not receive signals from mind to interpret as it wishes. But, u will be under the full control of soul from that time.

All sensations and all things which we are seeing and enjoying through now is just on mindly or material plane, but once the mind merges into its root or base, all these all goes into nonexistence. Soul will from that point onwards sometimes will act through mind, but then it will be very limited and hence, these acts become divine from that point onwards. Once u become soul, then u will even understand that there is nothing so called as mind other than the mere saying of mind, mind

"Is it that the Soul wants do some thing hence body and mind are attached as helping tools for that mission?"

Again, as told above, Soul does nothing...it is the mind which is acting based upon its samaskaras. How can a body and mind attached to the soul Maheshji? Mind is attached to the soul, but not soul is. Soul is not attached to anything. Have you seen a baby monkey and a mother monkey especially when mother monkey is jumping from tree to tree? Which one is attached to which? Is it the baby monkey or the mother monkey?

Maheshji, you are experiencing the state of in soul daily whereby I did not know, I did not feel, I did not touch, I did not see, but without u being aware of it, daily in deep sleep..where mind goes and lays in its root. Again, when u wake up in the morning, the mind is again active released from the root and u see the whole world and that also u are not aware of it. And that is why people find unlimited enjoyment in sleep and completely refreshed when one wakes up. Even the whole body is active when u wake up from deep sleep, ur memory brightens up. Once u become soul, even each cell will lit up.

Through the mind u are experiencing pictures with the help of this outer eye, through pancheyndriyas and pancha boothas, you are experiencing sensations, smell, touch etc...

"is it that the Soul is acting since mind and body are attached?

If the second (b) is true, Is the detachement (free) from mind and body is the only way to close the cycle?"

Complete detachment will come only when u become soul. From that point onwards, one will be liberated. But after that, another step of something called salvation is there. i do not know about that.

Maheshji, these are all a state to be experienced. It cannot be understood by brain or memory or that state cannot be expressed in words.

Regards


Narayanan

[Narayan]

Dearest Anupamji:

"Mind are not the part of any soul"

If mind is not part of the soul, then how does the soul carry it after the death of the body to another body?

I read in a book titled "life after death" whereby it states "the soul carries a person's subtle body of mind, intelligence, and false ego, along with his state of consciousness, on to his next birth"

Regards

Narayanan

[digitsoftime]

Dear Narayanan ji,

What you say is true. The soul after leaving the body takes with it manas, buddhi, chitta and ahamkara. Chitta is the mind stuff that projects in various degrees and intensities.

But the mind, ego and intelligence goes always along with the soul in order to dispense the stain of Karma. But the soul itself is unaffected. It is like a person seeing good and bad things in the world. The mind is affected by the good and the bad sights that he sees, but he, the ego himself is unaffected. Shiva meditates peacefully in the mountains at times, at other times He is the same Bhairava again. But that doesn't affect the nature of Shiva. I think this is what Anupamji was referring to.

best regards,
Sunny

[Narayan]

Dear Sunnyji:

"But the mind, ego and intelligence goes always along with the soul in order to dispense the stain of Karma. But the soul itself is unaffected."

Yes true, you are right there.

Thanks for helping me in my journey,


Narayanan

[Narayan]

Anupamji:

No, I do not have any confusion now as Sunnyji cleared it. Meanwhile, you may please do not stop writing here as your posts, Ramananji's, Krishnagopalji's post are all a lot helpful as far as I am concerned for my journey and for me, it is a learning process always.

Thanks,

Narayanan

[nggm]

Respected Anupam ji,

I have sent a pm to you. Will you pls check your forum-inbox?

Thanks & Regards,

[nggm]

Thank you Anupam ji. I will wait for your reply.

Thanks
Sarika

[Abhijit Muhurta !!!]

Greetings to Anupam ji...Mahesh ji...
very interesting exchange of posts...
just thought i could share a small note by the renowned Rumi

Soul receives from soul that knowledge,
therefore not by book nor from tongue.
If knowledge of mysteries come after emptiness of mind,
that is illumination of heart

[Abhijit Muhurta !!!]

Well 'Aham-Brahamasami' is an elusive word. Who related this word to Deha they became Rakshasas and who really realised the meaning of this word they got freed from this world.

very well said Anupamji...
The utterance from Shankarcharya was in exultation of realising his true self/nature. and never to be taken in its literal ego-centric meaning