Suresh Chauhan Ji and other dear readers.. comments please

[radiance]

As per astrology, if everything can be fixed by remedies, then why aren’t all astrologers the richest, happiest and most successful people on this planet?

http://qr.ae/TUTa21 - The response by this guy is really thought provoking as it unsettles the mind.

Full thread with response by other users here - https://www.quora.com/As-per-astrology- ... his-planet

Please let me know your views. We see many instances in society as well where the most pious, sincere and truthful of all go through the worst. Which is ironical and painful to see/hear at the same time.

[vedicmaths]

hello radiance,

My personal opinion:

This question will naturally take us to another topic.. FATE or FREEWILL ?

If God's roll is present in freewill, then it cannot be considered as FREEWILL at all.
If God's roll is not in freewill, then a natural question comes.. can something exist beyond GOD ?

No remedy will work beyond one's fate. Countless people are there who have done so called
remedies without their wish being achieved. Escapist will always say " it is because of your karma
done in the past ". If so who advised one to do such karma's in the previous birth ? It is an endless
issue.

truly yours,
vedicmaths

[vee3]

Radiance,
I am no astrologer, but my take on remedies is that it has a placebo effect - it calms the mind of a believing doer and gives them some kind of positive feeling for the time being.
Vee3

[Crystalpages]

Dear Radiance,

You wrote: "As per astrology, if everything can be fixed by remedies...".

Perhaps you meant 'as per {some} astrologers...?' I have not read the claim being made by Astrology, at least not the main texts/scriptures on astrology!

I agree with what member vedicmaths wrote.

Also, I do not know of any surgeon who performed a major surgery on him/herself? I also do not know of many physicians/surgeons who remained healthy right til their final days? But their services did benefit many of their patients and families of their patients. I have also seen children, of some of the best and most successful and inspiring teachers, not doing too well in studies and not even graduating!

Peace...!

[tylorechandra]

The basic background for belief in astrology (Hindu) is a belief in the theory of Karma and rebirth. Everyone reaps what he/she has sown.

Discounting the usefulness of remedial measures altogether is to simply club all karmas under the umbrella of Dhrida Karma which is not what the theory of karma is about.

Many abstract things can be understood only by the Mind and not by the Intellect. In such cases, belief is always essential to the understanding.

The presence of freewill in all Agami Karmas indicate that all events are not fixed (Dhrida) in life. There have been many instances where remedial measures have indeed helped the performers of such measures achieving their desires.

Why all astrologers are not rich has the same answer as for why all doctors are not healthy. Astrology is a believer’s book of facts. For others it is a book of fiction. Everyone is free to choose either option.

TKC

[Vivek Surya]

नमः शिवाय!

Why all astrologers are not rich has the same answer as for why all doctors are not healthy. Astrology is a believer’s book of facts. For others it is a book of fiction. Everyone is free to choose either option.

Very well answered TKC Ji!

The presence of freewill in all Agami Karmas indicate that all events are not fixed (Dhrida) in life.

TKC Ji, if freewill exists, there's certainly a doubt arises that is there something beyond God?! Isn't so? So humans have freewill? I don't think so!

[radiance]

Why all astrologers are not rich has the same answer as for why all doctors are not healthy. Astrology is a believer’s book of facts. For others it is a book of fiction. Everyone is free to choose either option.

TKC

Well explained Sir. Vedicmaths is right - it is an endless debate.

[tylorechandra]

@ Vivek Surya,

To understand Freewill it is necessary to go back to the very basics. Briefly put, Hindu philosophy teaches about the need to keep doing good in all respects (Kaaya, Vaacha, Manasa) in every birth cycle so as to be able to come out of a seemingly infinite cycles of births and deaths by attaining Gnana. Once Gnana is achieved, there are no good or bad Karmas since the Karmas of Gnanis are not the result of Vasanas. This paves the way for Moksha. To enable such good deeds to be able to be performed against his Vasanas, every human is endowed with a limited amount of Freewill. Whether he surrenders to his Vasanas or overcomes them by using his Freewill is left to the individual. Usage of Freewill does not imply existence of powers beyond the Godly.

A learned Guru is an absolute necessity to decipher the knowledge hidden in the Vedanta. For the common man living within the boundaries of Desires and Vasanas, it is difficult to understand the terminologies used therein. Those interested to know the basics can listen to a lecture by Swami Chinmayananda ji (available on the internet) on BMI / PFT / OET (Body, Mind, Intellect / Perceiver, Feeler, Thinker / Objects, Emotions, Thoughts).

TKC

[radiance]

Thanks for sharing TKC. Will check SwamiJi's video.

[Shalu]

If we dont have freewill then no karma is considered bad or good . But without god's will nothing happens . Very difficult to understand indeed ☺

[Nitin21]

In a wordly sense think about bad actions which can be solved by a simple apology, apology+simple punishment, apology+ harsh punishment, no apology that can work, and lasty harsh punishment and death penalty.

the human qualitative judgement may differ from person to person in above cases but law of karma is clear in scriptures. Sufferrings accordingly may accordigly be cut short or prolonged based on karma.

thus remedies may not always work for dridha karmas.

[radiance]

You wrote: "As per astrology, if everything can be fixed by remedies...".

Crystalpages,

I missed to read your reply earlier, Sir. The question is actually posted in the quora forum http://qr.ae/TUTa21. Many people have responded there as well. Usually those who respond in that website come from varied backgrounds - scientists, astrology enthusiasts, believeres, atheists and many more. I believe a wider variety of people visit that site than LOVA so a wider range of responses as well. Mostly the answers have a modern/scientific touch to it. I posted the link here to see the response from astrological/spiritual community here and am happy with the responses I got.

But as with most people on this journey called life there are more questions than all the answers put together. One may be satisfied one day, but the next day another question comes up and so on. The curiosity never subsides. At times a scientific/practical answer is so convincing that a feeling arises astrology and other such subjects are trash altogether. At other times, the spiritual/philosphical explanation is so perfect that nothing else seems right. Guess many would be in this same dilemma.

Tx

[Vivek Surya]

नमः शिवाय!

To understand Freewill it is necessary to go back to the very basics. Once Gnana is achieved, there are no good or bad Karmas since the Karmas of Gnanis are not the result of Vasanas. This paves the way for Moksha. To enable such good deeds to be able to be performed against his Vasanas, every human is endowed with a limited amount of Freewill.

TKC Ji, So you mean that one cannot achieve Moksha through his Vaasanaas?! One can achieve only if free will is present!? Is that what you mean?
Okay let me opine:
Everything whatever we're experiencing is through our Karma. Nothing is uncertain, everything is certainly certain! Who are giving freewill to us? From where are we getting it? Do we possess it intrinsically? If we do so, It's by Karma only right & if It's through Karma, where is the question of freewill coming from?

Everything is predestined in one's Graha positions! Let's say if a person is not predestined to attain siddhi in his horoscope! He can't attain Moksha in this life! It's not possible. Can we use freewill here to attain Siddhi?! If you claim so, Astrology has to be wrong!

So, Astrology & Freewill are mutually exclusive! i.e., both are independent to each other! If one is true other has to be false! If one is false other has to be true.
If Astrology is true every event happens through Karma.

Let me link with an analogy:
There is law of trichotomy which states that a real number is positive or negative or zero & there is no other possibility! If one claims that there is another possibility, then one's claim will be illogical since It's very clear that there is no other possibility since It's mentioned that it is a Real number.

By above logical extension, this may be still clear!
Let's consider two unequal natural numbers & name it as a & b respectively. Now, there are only 3 possibilities while comparing a & b with the above law i.e.,
1) a=b (this is unruled since both are unequal natural numbers)
2) a>b
3) a<b
So, there is only 2 possibilities i.e., either a greater than b or a lesser than b & there's no possibility.
Similarly, while comparing Freewill & Astrology (not as a quantity as in above case ) as they're independent, If one is true other should be false bath are independent of each other.
For me Astrology is true & Freewill is false. Everything happens through our Karma alone & It's predestined. So, one doesn't have anything to change or overcome from it! If one is capable of overcoming birth-death cycles horoscope should tally with certain yoga!

So, TKC Ji, you're welcome to disagree my views. Now one may disagree by proving Astrology & freewill are dependent.

So, It's up to one to decide according to one's intellect, logic & intuition.

Whether he surrenders to his Vasanas or overcomes them by using his Freewill is left to the individual.

So, TKC Ji, you meant that one can attain something only through one's Freewill & not by his Vaasanaas. What if the person's Vaasanaas are eligible to attain Siddhi!? Or do you claim that he has Freewill. So, that's why he could do it!?

PS: Sorry if analogy doesn't make any sense since I've chosen it because to see the "possibilities"
Thanks

[Crystalpages]

Vivek,

Can {a} and {b} vary in their relative magnitudes between different individuals or even in the same individual at different phases during life? Biology, as you know is full of variations and variabilities...?

[Vivek Surya]

नमः शिवाय!

Can {a} and {b} vary in their relative magnitudes between different individuals or even in the same individual at different phases during life?

Yes Rohiniranjan Ji, over here a & b are user defined constraints, so they can vary based on how we define it.
May I please know what exactly you wanted to convey if they're variables?

[hari766]

नमः शिवाय!
Okay let me opine:
Everything whatever we're experiencing is through our Karma. Nothing is uncertain, everything is certainly certain! Who are giving freewill to us? From where are we getting it? Do we possess it intrinsically? If we do so, It's by Karma only right & if It's through Karma, where is the question of freewill coming from?

We call it "Free will" simply because at present, we are ignorant of our past life karmas
When we become purer, we will gain insight into our past lives, and that will teach us that the entire world is our own creation, or rather, the creation of our past life efforts

Everything is predestined in one's Graha positions! Let's say if a person is not predestined to attain siddhi in his horoscope! He can't attain Moksha in this life! It's not possible. Can we use freewill here to attain Siddhi?! If you claim so, Astrology has to be wrong!

Moksha is not something to be attained through efforts/karma/remedial measures/free will. Moksha is the final release from our persistent ignorance that we are this body/mind having this name xyz, the son/daughter/wife/husband of ABC etc etc....

So, Astrology & Freewill are mutually exclusive! i.e., both are independent to each other! If one is true other has to be false! If one is false other has to be true.
If Astrology is true every event happens through Karma.

IMHO, the basic premise of astrology is that all of us, this entire world, arose out of lord Vishnu, lives within him, and finally merges in Him. It is the lord's will that he may take all these forms including you and me, and play a little while, so there he takes up some ignorance and gives himself some "free will" and goes through lives, performing karma. This is my understanding...

[Vivek Surya]

नमः शिवाय!

Moksha is not something to be attained through efforts/karma/remedial measures. Moksha is the final release from our persistent ignorance that we are this body/mind having this name xyz, the son/daughter/wife/husband of ABC etc etc....

Yes true. But what I was saying is if a person can attain something, It'll definitely be predestined as everything is predestined in one's Graha positions! If suppose a person's Vaasanaas are couldn't or unable or not eligible to understand that we're not this body / mind then the person will not attain siddhi in this life. If It's destined in his horoscope then he will definitely attain! Why & How will someone achieve / perceive something beyond one's Graha positions?

The basic premise of astrology is that all of us, this entire world, arose out of lord Vishnu, lives within him, and finally merges in Him. It is the lord's will that he may take all these forms including you and me, and play a little while

Perfectly! There's no inch doubt in it! But whatever Paramaatma does he has a reason for it, we may or may not perceive through Astrology! If one couldn't perceive, so simple that he may not destined to understand! And a horoscope should say why he is not able to achieve.
Everything I repeat Everything is predestined in one's Graha positions at the time of one's Birth!

so there he takes up some ignorance and gives himself some "free will" and goes through lives, performing karma.

Whatever he do, there is a reason, we may or may not understand! Randomly he can't give freewill! It's not quite convincing!
As I already said If there is freewill, Astrology has to be wrong! That means there is something which is beyond God's Grace, that is not quite convincing to me. As I tried explaining Astrology & freewill are independent of each other.

Okay, Let me ask about freewill!
1) How can a person have freewill?
2) What is the eligibility to attain it?

[hari766]

नमः शिवाय!
Yes true. But what I was saying is if a person can attain something, It'll definitely be predestined as everything is predestined in one's Graha positions! If suppose a person's Vaasanaas are couldn't or unable or not eligible to understand that we're not this body / mind then the person will not attain siddhi in this life. If It's destined in his horoscope then he will definitely attain! Why & How will someone achieve / perceive something beyond one's Graha positions?

Perfectly! There's no inch doubt in it! But whatever Paramaatma does he has a reason for it, we may or may not perceive through Astrology! If one couldn't perceive, so simple that he may not destined to understand! And a horoscope should say why he is not able to achieve.
Everything I repeat Everything is predestined in one's Graha positions at the time of one's Birth!

The graha's positions can be accepted only as a broad indicator. There may be any number of people born at the same time in which I was born, even if you calculate it to the very precise level, but my past karma decides my parents, the house I am born in, my free will and how I exercise it. Horoscope can be identified with a searchlight, but it can never be compared to the Sun... The art of reading the future from the horoscope at the time of birth is just one among many "Jyotish" sastras devised by the Rishis. From a person's horoscope we may predict that he is likely to attain siddhi, still if he performs some extremely bad acts in the course of his life, his longevity can get curtailed, and he might die without fulfilling the promise. Of course, he might take up the thread in one of his subsequent lives, and attain siddhi in quick time, so the predictions cannot be termed false.

[hari766]

नमः शिवाय!
Whatever he do, there is a reason, we may or may not understand! Randomly he can't give freewill! It's not quite convincing!

If you accept that all beings came out of Vishnu, you would tend to expect perfect equality in the world. But that is not what you see. Randomly some beings (do/have done) good karma, and derive happiness out of it, while some others are driven to do bad karma....

As I already said If there is freewill, Astrology has to be wrong! That means there is something which is beyond God's Grace, that is not quite convincing to me. As I tried explaining Astrology & freewill are independent of each other.

Sri Ramakrishna paramahamsa gave an example to illustrate "free will" vs past karma (astrology). It's like a goat tied by a cord to a tree. The range of the goat is a circle whose circumference is decided by the length of the cord. Now within the circle, the goat has ample "free will" to perform whatever he wants. But the boundary decided by the cord or past karma, remains unchanged. This is the example with respect to a person's free will in his lifetime. As far as the horoscope is concerned, though only broadly indicative, it's coverage extends into multiple lifetimes. Freewill ie, a remedy performed in this lifetime, might or might not give it's result in this lifetime, but it is sure to give it's results in one of future lives, so it would have done it's job anyway in leading a soul towards moksha.

[Vivek Surya]

नमः शिवाय!

If you accept that all beings came out of Vishnu, you would tend to expect perfect equality in the world. But that is not what you see.

Why will I expect perfect equality?! No I don't! Why should I?

Randomly some beings (do/have done) good karma, and derive happiness out of it, while some others are driven to do bad karma....

It's because of their Karma!

my free will and how I exercise it.

That's what I've doubt. How is it justified!

Sri Ramakrishna paramahamsa gave an example to illustrate "free will" vs past karma (astrology). It's like a goat tied by a cord to a tree. The range of the goat is a circle whose circumference is decided by the length of the cord. Now within the circle, the goat has ample "free will" to perform whatever he wants. But the boundary decided by the cord remains unchanged.

If Guru's like Ramakrishna Paramahamsa have talked about freewill then I should definitely read that book! Hari Ji could you please quote the book, I want to refer or you could share a PDF link.

[hari766]

नमः शिवाय!

Sri Ramakrishna paramahamsa gave an example to illustrate "free will" vs past karma (astrology). It's like a goat tied by a cord to a tree. The range of the goat is a circle whose circumference is decided by the length of the cord. Now within the circle, the goat has ample "free will" to perform whatever he wants. But the boundary decided by the cord remains unchanged.

If Guru's like Ramakrishna Paramahamsa have talked about freewill then I should definitely read that book! Hari Ji could you please quote the book, I want to refer or you could share a PDF link.

I was writing from memory, having read Sri Ramakrishna Vachanamruth many years ago. Freewill vs Destiny is an oft discussed topic. Many other Gurus have discussed it. Even in the Mahabharata you will find many discussions like between Yudhishtira and Draupadi, Dhritarashtra and Vidura etc, on this (as they refer to it, Daivam vs Paurusham).

[hari766]

नमः शिवाय!

If you accept that all beings came out of Vishnu, you would tend to expect perfect equality in the world. But that is not what you see.

Why will I expect perfect equality?! No I don't! Why should I?

Randomly some beings (do/have done) good karma, and derive happiness out of it, while some others are driven to do bad karma....

It's because of their Karma!

At some initial level, it is inseparable from the Karma of Vishnu, who has created and sustained these diverse beings, with their diverse inclinations

[Vivek Surya]

नमः शिवाय!
Hari Ji, What I understood is Astrology & freewill are independent of each other. If one is true other has to be false & if one is false other has to be true. I perceive both are independent of each other. Thus only one of the above 2 is true. For me freewill is false & Astrology is true. I really wonder how people believes in both Astrology & freewill when only one is true!
If you ask me why both are independent, I've written my views on it by quoting TKC Ji. You could see above explanation, if its not making any sense please raise the points & let me know how both Astrology & freewill are dependent.
For me, if one is true other has to be false, no matter what!

[hari766]

नमः शिवाय!
Hari Ji, What I understood is Astrology & freewill are independent of each other. If one is true other has to be false & if one is false other has to be true.

OK From what I have read, these two are inter-related. The quote from Sri Ramakrishna captures this idea, imo.

[hari766]

नमः शिवाय!
If you ask me why both are independent, I've written my views on it by quoting TKC Ji. You could see above explanation, if its not making any sense please raise the points & let me know how both Astrology & freewill are dependent.
For me, if one is true other has to be false, no matter what!

If one is true other has to be false & if one is false other has to be true. I perceive both are independent of each other.

Vivekji,
I went through your explanation. My point is, the laws of astrology work only in this material world of tri-gunas. They don't have the capability to scale beyond this world. I remember taking part in a discussion on a similar topic before. What we call "Brahman" or "God" transcend this world in a huge way. In the Vedas this is referred to in the Purushasukta as "Sa bhumim visvato vritva, atyatishtad dashangulam". Hence, this Brahman can, at any moment, inspire our minds to perform actions of 'free will'. This inspiration is beyond past karma because the karma is always bounded by the trigunas of Sattva, Rajas and Tamas and based on naama-roopas. Obviously, most of the actions we call arising out of 'free will' are still karmic-related. Nevertheless the possibility of inspiration from Brahman or God is always there. If you remember the meaning of the Gayatri mantra, it deals with such inspiration transcending all bounds of karma. In plain terms, "God's grace" can transcend all astrological or karmic rules.

So, just as in your example, the law of of trichotomy doesn't apply for complex numbers, the laws of astrology too, while working well with respect to the world, need not work at all when we go beyond the bounds. So you have astrologers required to perform sadhanas and the like, to ensure that the thread of inspiration is never lost.