Which ayanamsa is true ?

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freeloader
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Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by freeloader » 07 Jun 2015

Hi dear forum members.I found that many ayanamsa in JHora program.True Lahiri,Pushya-Paksha,Rohini-paksha,Chitra-paksha,Fagan,KP etc etc... So whic one is the most true ayanamsa? Can anyone help ?



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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by Dr Neeraj » 22 Jun 2015

Dear Freeloader
Sh KN Rao advises to use Lahiri Ayanmansa
God bless you
Neeraj

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by krishnagopal1968 » 23 Jun 2015

Lahiri ayanamsa is what I too recommend.

A simple exercise of verifying past events of one's own horocope lahiri ayanamsa, will greatly help.

however i support a very minor correction of minus 2 or 3 minutes of lahiri.

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by Crystalpages » 30 Nov 2015

freeloader wrote:Hi dear forum members.I found that many ayanamsa in JHora program.True Lahiri,Pushya-Paksha,Rohini-paksha,Chitra-paksha,Fagan,KP etc etc... So whic one is the most true ayanamsa? Can anyone help ?
This has always been a 'bone' for many who were drawn to this wonderful subject of astrology. What amazes one who dispassionately observes the field (one Mega-difficult feat to say the least?) and over many years follows the uha-poha (?) as different doyens say and show their piece(s) in person, in magazines, journals, periodicals (come and gone or replaced by more), earlier on paper but now in silico (web), and even different zodiacs getting introduced (Soorya siddhanta, and a few even using tropical sayana zodiac for jyotish) -- the matter has grown more complex!

A majority of tests (other than Governmental bodies and committee assurances etc) seem to have relied on vimshottary dasha and sometimes tied to the nakshatras as we find them today (they shift over large bodies of time?)!

But, there are so many dashas! More than one recommended as 'dashas for general purposes' and so not 'conditional'? Imagine the amount of work involved in testing it "scientifically"?

And the same applies to the birth-time rectifications that seem to get done on the fly with vimshottari or maybe a couple or three of those?

And then there is that variable known as intuition? How can that variable be controlled in most such scientific tests of ayanamsha (as an example) so that it does not become a *confounder*?
Rohiniranjan

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by aspiringjyotish » 19 Jul 2016

Chitrapaksha Ayanamsha is supported by the Shastra. It is also known as Ketki Ayanmansha based on its proponent Vyankatesh Ketkar. NC Lahiri borrowed his ayanmasha. Any variation of Chitrapakshi ayanamsha that is around 24 deg is an offshoot of Chitrapakshi Ayanamsha itself. Any deviation such as ayanamsha's closer to 22deg are not supported by the Shastra.
Rest up to you and your judgment.

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by MeeraL » 07 Aug 2017

Dr Neeraj wrote:
22 Jun 2015
Dear Freeloader
Sh KN Rao advises to use Lahiri Ayanmansa
God bless you
Neeraj
Hello,
I have Jagannath Hora version 8 .
When you say Lahiri Ayanmansa, what is the option:

- Surya Siddantha and then True Lahiri ?
- Surya Siddantha and then Traditional Lahiri?
- Dripk Siddantha and then True Lahiri?
- Drip Siddantha and then Tradiitional Lahiri?

I am new in astrology and and i am confuse with this 4 options.

thank you

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by skrajiv » 09 Mar 2018

If you want to use Lahiri Ayanamsa, you need to select Drik Siddhantha and Traditional Lahiri or True Lahiri (Chitra Paksha) Ayanamsha. (Both are almost same with just minor variation)

Lahiri is the one used by most astrologers but however I am not sure it yields the best results. Many times when there is Sandhi, Lahiri does not prevail. It is however the most easiest one to use as you can generate a Lahiri horoscope very easily as almost every astrology based site supports it. I would like to know which system astrologers of yore used to follow before 50-60 years before the advent of computers.

In Tamil Nadu, we also use Vaakya Panchangam which differs a bit and in most horoscopes I've seen 2 sign changes and in strange cases even 3 signs being off. In my own horoscope, 2 signs differ viz Jupiter and Mars. The Jupiter transit happens earlier and the Saturn transit takes place later as per Vakya and that's the method used in the thumb impression based Nadi astrology. Somehow I feel it tends to give closer results to BV Raman and Pushya Paksha Ayanamsa. If you want to go with majority, it's advisable to go with Lahiri but when planets are at the end or early degrees, it's best to verify events as opposed to taking a wild shot of just using Lahiri blindly.

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by Vivek Surya » 29 Apr 2018

नमः शिवाय!
What is the concept behind Ayanaamsha?! What made Chitrapaksha ayanaamsha accurate?

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by Ayushman » 10 Jul 2018

pushya pakshya ayanamsha is the best. It is not dependent on any formulae which is prone to become useless after century.

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by Dr Neeraj » 11 Jul 2018

I would like to repeat what Dinesh Mathur Ji already stated in the earlier post:

Whichever ayanamsha one feels gives satisfactory results should be used.

Regards

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by MeeraL » 11 Jul 2018

Dr Neeraj wrote:
11 Jul 2018
I would like to repeat what Dinesh Mathur Ji already stated in the earlier post:

Whichever ayanamsha one feels gives satisfactory results should be used.

Regards
Thank you sir.

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by Nora » 11 Jul 2018

Dear Neeraj Ji

I completely understand and agree what you're saying but it's kinda difficult to know for sure which ayanamsa is working.

For a native whom I know, according to KP it is showing Saturn Mahadasha Venus Antardasha and Sun Pratyantardasha.

Whereas in KAS system it shows Saturn Mahadasha Sun Antardasha

Now, based on the observation of the events in the life of this native happening at present, it seems hard to predict whether Venus Antardasha is ongoing or Sun Antardasha is ongoing.

Her Saturn is 5th house (cancer ascendant), Venus is 7th and Sun 8th.

Because, when she fell ill often lately, one could think that it's due to current Saturn transit and also Saturn drishti on Venus (venus Antardasha and in that pratyantardasha) or it could be that KAS system and ayanamsa that say that sun Antardasha is going is correct hence the health issues.

Also, the native started to get some publicity recently. This could happen in venus or Sun Antardasha.

So, sometimes based on life events it becomes hard to understand which Antardasha is operating. I'm not sure how do we even decide what are satisfactory results in such cases?

Kind regards

Nora

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by vedicmaths » 11 Jul 2018

hello all,

It is we assume that things should happen only during the dasa/antar/pratyantar , etc.
Transits do play.

Lightning happens first and thunder is an outcome of it. Similarly, dasa periods can create
space for the event and transits could actually time it. Everyone knows this.

Ayanamsa is a quantity derived out of an astronomical event happening in space.
To ' fully ' understand ayanamsa, one should understand astronomical mathematics.
After understanding , one should master it. Without this, any attempt to define
an ayanamsa is not mathematically fair. However, based on one's understanding of
astrology, one can FEEL an ayanamsa to work or suit his understanding. But that
does not mean to prove that an ayanamsa is mathematically correct. That is the
reason people who are knowledgeable both in astrology and astronomical mathematics
change their views over a period of time. As one understands more and more,
cleared pictures keep emerging. Astrologers / astro practioners should bear this in
mind and be open to ayanamsas. Till then no ayanamsa can claim superiority.

These are my humble views.

truly yours,
vedicmaths

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by skrajiv » 12 Jul 2018

Ayanamsa is too complicated a topic and unfortunately we do not have a standard here. BV Raman used to follow his own ayanamsa and gave spectacular predictions. KN Rao claims only Chitra Paksha Ayanamsa is correct and says scientifically it's the right one. However he hasn't proved it in any way as to why it is correct. Kp practitioners use an ayanamsa of their own which is slightly off from Lahiri. PVR advocates the Pushya Paksha Ayanamsa which is a little closer to Raman but still 19 minutes off. There was a new video on Saptharishi channel by an astro scientist called Brajesh Mishra who claims that Center of the Galaxy is the right one and that happens to be about 27 mins away from Lahiri. In our forum we have regular contributor @joyD using an ayanamsa that is about 50 odd mins off from Lahiri. I think maybe he might be someone better equipped who can explain about ayanamsa and also why he is uses this particular ayanamsa.

Just to summarize on the various ayanamsas and the difference in minutes from Lahiri.
Lahiri 0 base point
KP 5 mins off Lahiri
Center of Galaxy 27 mins off Lahiri
JoyD Ayanamsa 52 mins off Lahiri
Pushya Paksha Ayanamsa 1 deg 7 mins ie 67 mins off Lahiri
Yuktheswar 1 deg 21 mins ie 81 mins off Lahiri
BV Raman 1 deg 26 mins ie 86 mins off Lahiri

Just for illustration, lets say Jupiter is in 29 deg 30 mins in Gemini in Lahiri, as per BV Raman Ayansmsa it will be in 1 deg 56 mins in Cancer.

coffeeday

Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by coffeeday » 12 Jul 2018

Of all the ayanamsas Raman AYANAMSA seems to be more accurate . But some times that also falls wrong , especially when it came to pushkarams . Last time time Godavari pushkarams came 15 days earlier as per the calculations of a very reputed astrologer of Andhrapradesh . When verified with life events 2 degrees 26 minutes off Lahiri was reported to be giving accurate results as per some . But it is strange because Lahiri ayanamsa gave beautiful results to some and many got good results with Raman ayanamsa and some claim good result with some other Ayanamsa . So which is correct . In the absence of correct ayanamsa how to calculate divisional charts .

coffeeday

Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by coffeeday » 12 Jul 2018

When the lagna falls in the center 10 degrees , the problem is not much . The prediction does not go much wrong . But if the lagna point falls in the end degrees even the lagna point can not be fixed correctly and even navamsa , goes wrong . As navamsa is as important as lagna and many people give very accurate predictions with the help of lagna and navamsa only the problem having correct ayanamsa is very important .

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by skrajiv » 12 Jul 2018

Absolutely coffeeday,
You're very right on this. I also agree with you that personally Raman ayanamsa works better most of the times but when Lagna is at end point it creates a big problem as there is almost a 5 and a half minute difference just on the Lagna itself. In a recent case, I had a lot of trouble fixing the Lagna as the Native seemed to be Virgo Lagna based on characteristics and in Lahiri, it was at 29 degrees 50 odd minutes and in Raman it was already around 1 degree 20 minutes and so I had to reduce the time by almost 5 mins to get it back to Virgo.

More than Rasi chart, there is major problem in assessing divisional charts as the Navamsa Lagna changes most of the times making it a really problematic issue. In my own case as per Lahiri, Navamsa Lagna is Meena and Jupiter is in 7th in Virgo but as per Raman, Lagna is Mesha and Jupiter still is in the 7th but in Libra. This is because Jupiter is in 29 and odd degree in Rasi in Capricorn as per Lahiri but moved to Aquarius in Raman. So in such a case I really find it difficult to assess the Navamsa chart.

In terms of timing of events, Raman works very well. However it changes the Nakshatra for a number of people who would have always been believing that they belong to some other Nakshatra :( . Out of my personal limited experience, I am not sure if Raman is the best but I think something closer to Raman appears more correct ie, it should be between around 1 degree to 1 degree 30 mins off from Lahiri. There is also a confusion on Dasa days whether to use 360 or 365.25 days as well :D .

I just hope some day this ayanamsa fixation gets sorted. I am not able to still buy the theory of judiciously mixing the ayanamsa as per one's liking as the picture gets distorted.

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by Racing » 14 Jul 2018

As others have stated, K.N. Rao suggests using Chitrapaksha and if you are a beginner or at intermediate level, just use Chitrapaksha. Ignore other ayanamshas unless you're really at a level where you have a firm understanding of astrology.

One thing I have realized is that there are some really gifted astrologers out there who are conducting their own research, but out of these, 85% of modern day astrologers - who're in the limelight are very, very poor teachers.

Not because they don't know or understand. They do. Their grasp is incredible but they cannot simplify it and present astrology as a sound science as K.N. Rao does. The only other person who did this was Dr. Raman, but in the case of Dr. Raman, I think his intuition was at another level.

It's all fine and dandy to get into ayanamsha research once you're an advanced practitioner of astrology. Before that, stick to Chitrpaksha or if you come from Guru-Shishya parampara, listen to what your guru says.

coffeeday

Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by coffeeday » 14 Jul 2018

Yes,
friends , the Ayanamsa issue has become a hard nut to crack .My son's lagna falls in virgo as per Lahiri but in Libra as per other ayanamsa . Now when it is in the end degree we don't know whether it is due to difference in ayanamsa or due to the difference in time noted by the doctor in the hospital . If we take the degree of lagna , a slight difference in time gives different lagna where different results have to be given as the lordships change . Once I was sitting in an ashram where 5 to 6 clocks were fixed on the walls which showed different times and a thought immediately came to me as to what could have been the birth time going by the different clocks if it were a hospital . Sun as lagna lord is different from Venus as lagna lord in the charecteristic traits , looks, fortunes and yogas .Another issue is calculation of houses . personally I go by equal house division .The first house starts at the rising degree and ends at 30 degree counted from that degree where the second house starts .If the center point is taken as the bigining of the house , equally spreading degrees on either side does it not amount to birth taking place one hour earlier . As per my experience yogas have to be seen from rasi position and their fructification from bhava position .

coffeeday

Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by coffeeday » 15 Jul 2018

Dear list ,
Now the biggest riddle is as to why different Aynamsas are giving accurate predictions in the hands of different people . Taking only lagna point also does not seem to be the answer as lagna also changes some times . under the concept of equal house division with the concept of the starting degree as the starting point of lagna the house position of many planets also change . For example a planet in the begining of a rasi could be in the previous house and if it happens in case of planets like Mars the angaraka dosha is found in case of one lagna and does not exist in case of other lagna . Probably that could be the reason why Astrology is valid like statistics as a science . As far as accuracy in prediction is concerned People like Sri K.N.Rao could be having some intuitive skills along with proficiency in the subject .

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by skrajiv » 15 Jul 2018

Lagna Sandhi is a real hard nut to crack. Since your child is small, it's very difficult to decipher but after the native reaches a particular age, based on the characteristics it will be possible to say which ascendant the native belongs to. I had a similar case where a friend of mine had given the birth details of his niece and it was falling right at the cusp of Mithun/Kataka, hence I wasn't able to predict anything.

Out of my personal experience, birth time usually happens to be a couple of minutes earlier than actually recorded. It's very seldom that it happens to be at a later time. Please also check the Kunda in JHora which should tally with the birth star or be in a trine with the birth star. For eg if moon is Krithika, D81 Kunda should be either of Krithika, Uthara Phalguni or Utharashada (All sun stars). I also take a reference to Kalyan Varma's Saravalli which gives some tips on information relating to signs, horas, decanates and navamsa pada.

But yeah I do agree with different ayanamsas, it becomes a real big issue as we need to shift the time a lot. Recently I had a friend who was 29.5 degrees in Virgo as per Lahiri but already gone to more than a degree in Libra. It was so hard to actually decipher her ascendant. More than Lagna, the divisional Lagna's undergo a major toss and hence the reliability of reading divisional charts itself becomes a questionable issue.

Racing as you suggested, I was using Chitra Paksha but the results yielded were not amicable. I have Jupiter at 29.53 degrees as per Lahiri but in 1 degree as per other ayanamsas. Suddenly Jupiter from being my Atmakaraka changes position to Darakaraka. It's a confusion ridden tale and out of my limited experience, I don't think Chitra Paksha seems to be working out in all cases.

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by GNE » 16 Jul 2018

Just wanted to agree with some of the above posts and say in my experience too Chitrapaksha / Lahiri hasn't seemed to be working 100% (or even 80% to me) either. I spoke to one 'professional' astrologer (in real life, not someone online) who used Lahiri, and would tell me that for readings "all dasha timings may be off by a few weeks or month at times, that's normal and it's because exact timing should only be known by God")
I thought (but did not say) "no, exact timing is known by those who use the right ayanamsa. It's off because the ayanamsa is off" .....
I find most people use it simply because it's the default and "most popular" , which to me is not at all a logical enough reason to say it's correct.
I have a few family members who have planets at 0 or 29 degrees, and many things/yoga's change between ayanamsa's. Even my own chart is on the Mithuna/Karka (Gemini/Cancer) border, like skrajiv mentioned their niece's chart was.
I have tried many rectifications with 'professional' astrologers, and they haven't agreed - some say I MUST be gemini ascendant, while others feel 100% I am cancer ascendant.
One thing I believe is rectifying based on dasha timing does not work unless someone is a master(or near master) of the subject. I've seen too many people able to explain away ANY dasha for any event.
Especially if checking dasha results from lagna+moon lagna + navamsa + other applicable varga + arudha lagna + from mahadasha lagna, etc... it's impossible to not have something fit.

Also, unless ayanamsa is "solved", no one should be able to predict using Shastiamsa.
When I see some member on the forum telling things about someone's d60, I just shake my head and feel like asking: "so you have solved the ayanamsa puzzle and you know 100% which is correct?" - because if they haven't, then it's much to risky to predict for people, or onesself using d60.

I feel the reason many people make accurate predictions using any ayanamsa, is like one member said: good intuition. But also, even in my case I have accurately predicted for friends and their coworkers at times, but it's because the nature of their question #1) did not require me to rely on varga's, and could predict based on transit + planet placements / yoga's in rasi #2) They had no planet in rasi changing sign or nakshatra between ayanamsa's , #3) I used common knowledge and got lucky with guessing...ex : if someone who has been jobless for 6 months and is putting lots of effort in, trying to find a job asks me when will they find a job - if I know they are trying hard, then instantly I can assume one might come within the next few months - so then when checking the chart if I see a very positive transit beginning related to 6 and/or 10 house or Saturn,etc.. then I can predict they'll get a job opportunity at that time - and often it comes true.


The best charts to try and "solve" ayanamsa with would be those who have planets changing signs in the rasi.
(so many planets at around 0 o 29 degrees...).
Also that way their jaimini char karaka's change, which should help scholars judge which ayanamsa fits better.

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by skrajiv » 16 Jul 2018

GNE, you made some real valid points.

One reason I got into this ayanamsa puzzle is because I myself have been affected by planets in the cusp edge. Just adding on to my own example, Jupiter's shape changes completely. From Atmakaraka in Lahiri, it moves to Dara Karaka in other ayanamsas. Also I have got a lot of wrong predictions by astrologers with regard to Jupiter's placement in the 8th indicating that studies will be hard to come by and I would be struggling a lot with regard to education. But Jupiter being in the 9th denotes professional education and I do possess quite a few degrees. However another thing to note is if we take the bhava chart through equal house system, Jupiter continues to remains in the 8th only. But from aspect point of view and looking at my graph, I feel Jupiter being in Aquarius sign aspecting my Lagna, 3rd and 5th house seems to be making better sense. I'm still not completely convinced about the efficacy of Bhava chart and that can be a discussion for another day. Btw I am a Mithun Lagna.

Thankfully, I don't have issue in knowing my Ascendant but I have had several issues in fixing my Navamsa Lagna. As per Lahiri and also verifying through Nadi techniques it looks like its Meena but as per other ayanamsas its Mesha and unless I shift the time significantly backwards it continues to be in Mesha only and I feel that it is a futile exercise. I'm still trying to decipher my exact Navamsa Lagna as I have totally divergent views.

Regarding Ayanamsa itself, I have found BV Raman ayanamsa working the best. I know it's almost 1 and a half degree away from Lahiri and even changes the signs of planets but when I have verified various people's events especially with regard to timing of marriage, Raman works like a charm. Agreed, you can fix any event into a Dasha but I've seen in a number of cases the 7th lords connection or planets in 7th house or planet aspecting 7th being the period when marriage takes place. Its worked much much better for me than Lahiri. The other confusion I have is whether to take 360 days or 365.25 days for Dasa year. I usually take the latter but the former also works sometimes.

I am not experienced enough to conclude that Raman is best but I feel an Ayanamsa about 1 degree or so off from Lahiri works best. However certain other factors linger along the ayanamsa plane and we need to get answers for these also;
1) Usage of Bhava chart (Signs may change as per different ayanamsas but house placements can remain same or also change as per various ayanamsas)
2) Whether to use 360 days or 365.25 days for a Dasa year?
3) Recording of the actual birth time? (Not a major issue if you know time is off by just a few minutes in rasi chart but can create issues in divisional charts)
4) The whole study of divisional charts especially the finer intricate divisions with all these issues prevailing with ayanamsa?

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Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by Racing » 16 Jul 2018

@Rajiv

This is where one's Guru comes in, which is why I always advocate for initiation and instruction from a Guru. S/he will guide you here. In general terms, Chitrapaksha is the way to go.

@GNE

It does matter when planets change signs/houses. I have a cousin who has Rahu in his 3rd if we follow Chitrapaksha and if we compute using Raman, Rahu falls in his 4th house. The significations of Rahu in his 4th house seem to match his life more but when using dashas, Chitrapaksha gives a better picture. So, what are we supposed to do there?

As far as Dr. Raman goes, he didn't use vargas extensively. I've always believed that Dr. Raman had amazing intuition so no matter what ayanamsha he used, it didn't matter.

I do agree with your assessment regarding Shashtiamsa. But in general, just glancing over the free reading section of this forum, I get a sense that we have more sensational predictors here than true astrologers. The amount of people who're keen to predict that so and so won't have a marriage or a child is alarming and truly against the spirit of astrology. And the authority with which some say all these things... You'd think they were God. I come from a school where everything is karma and there is a way to modify karma through daan and dharma.

Regardless, I think Chitrapaksha is the ayanamsha to go for general purposes. Not because it's popular but because it's the default system. For beginners and intermediates, this is a very confusing thing, which is why I believe - unless you're an expert - stick to Chitrpaksha.

coffeeday

Re: Which ayanamsa is true ?

Post by coffeeday » 16 Jul 2018

So , since the ayanamsa issue is the biggest stumbling block in the art of prediction using divisional charts ,for the time being we have to rely on the transits , yogas , dasa& bhukthis only . Divisional charts like shatyamsas have to be left for people who have got high level of intuition , even at the cost being branded as inefficient and ignorant astrologers .

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