Jyotish - facts and Myths

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Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Anmohiey » 06 Jun 2015

AUM GUM GANAPATHAYE NAMAH

History of Jyotish and Conflict with respect to Mythology and present day practise:
The Indian culture is rich in mythology. It is believed that there are 04 Yugas, which go on cycle one after another.
The Satya or Kritha Yuga: 1 million 728 Thousands years
The Treta Yuga: 1 million 296 Thousands years
Dwapara Yuga: 864 Thousand years
Kaliyug: 432 Thousand years.

Presently we are in Kaliyuga, which is believed to be commenced since 3102BC.
Indian mythology during Treta and Dwapar yuga are adequetly documented as Lord Vishnu incarnated as Rama and Krishna respectively in those Yugas. These mythological literature not states ominously, that the Jyotish was extensively used for predicting or forecasting futures in those time. Yet there are a lot written about consultation of Puranic Kings with their priests for delineating good period for performing coronation, rituals, functions etc.
One among them is, King Dhasharatha’s consultaion with seer Vasistha, seeking advice for begetting children. It is believed that, the Seer advised the king to perform a Yajna – Putra Kameshti - ritual with fire sacrificing on an auspicious time and day to get benefit.
The father of Siddhartha, was advised by family priest up on studying newly born child’s horoscope that, the yoga for sanyasi for the king’s son was strong and can be avoided by not exposing the child to suffering of world up to certain age.
Thus it gives us an impression that, as per mythology, the Jyotish was not believed to be deterministic and used as a counselling for deriving appropriate Muhurthas – election of time, remedial measures – pariharas chiefly.

Later on perhaps trend steadily changed and probably people who used to be curious about future started consulting Jyotishi’s for ascertaining their future and same is widely prevailing current time though misnomer.
Obviously, a question arises, had the Jyotish was a science for forecasting, a lot mythological time wars might have not took place as one of the party could have consulted Jyotishi for certainty of outcome of war and act accordingly!

The Bhagvath Geetha, talks about Karma, sin and how to tread path of pious life for further salvation.
The close observation of Puranic – mythological epics description gives us a clue that, present day what we are attempting to do with Jyotish is not in original form but distorted and corrupted owing to over enthusiasm of curiosity.

The Jyotish, in right perspective is a science for deciphering process of choosing right and appropriate period, time etc., for undertaking important activity, adventure, investing, invention, study, charitable plans, ensuring desirable result for the efforts. This can also be consulted for avoiding unpleasant confrontation, displeasure, loss and damage which could be the result in case the time of undertaking would be detrimental.
Thus emphasis is to opine that, in all probability and reality what so called much of the astrologers attempting to forecast the future life for individuals by addressing queries of consultants like, when one was destined get married, what kind of profession one would be favoured with and its timing, whether business or fixed salary profession is suitable, which team would win in a match, who would be elected in an election, at what age one can get child, so on so forth are pragmatically need to be seriously reviewed as abnormal and instead the purpose should be to focus on the advice appropriate time and period in order to mitigate loss, failure and ensure success, outcome of desired intent.

The above facts, for somebody who has been studying, practising and following Jyotish as predictive tool might sound as absurd and unacceptable. Yet I am sure, after thorough pondering, self-introspection and realising the reality of human being limitations it is quite evident that, the sense of virtuous reality dawns.

It is common sense that, a human being cannot have power and strength to forecast future happenings, for the simple reason that, than Karma or sense of duty would have been neglected by individual leading for chaos.
The purpose of writing this, though for somebody sound as contentious, is not to discard the Jyotish in the present pattern of practise but only to make an attempt to convey misconception rampant in majority of public.
Few of the people might be having experience of consulting Nadi astrologers and observed that, the past events matched perfectly but future predictions did not turned out to be in line. This could be an example of limitations of predictive technique as, none other than almighty can give future prediction exact. However the trend of future can be out lined with projection of span of life events direction though.
I am interested to take up the queries of individual, one case in a week, who would seek to know any good period/Muhurtha/Election of time for any field of human life, based on quest’s birth details. I request that, the quest who is having correct birth details may only come up with their intended desire to know the appropriate time period for any field of their life initially. Indeed, I am also attempting to explore the birth time rectification later on.
The academic interest sake and also reference for other friends can also be exercised and I am open to take up the cases where in the results are known to the Jataka, but just birth details of individual concerned and exact date of their act/attempt/investment/stock trading etc., please made known to me for giving out the past outcome.
Pranama
Anmohiey



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Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by tylorechandra » 07 Jun 2015

I do not agree at all with your comments. You have yourself given examples of the use of Jyotish for forecast. Muhurta is just a part of hindu astrology and not the whole. If you claim that you can overcome all deficiencies by a proper muhurta, it is just a tall claim.

TKC

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Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Anmohiey » 08 Jun 2015

AUM GUM GANAPATHAYE NAMAH

Dear Tylo,

The beneficial aspect of choosing a good muhurtha is an exercise which one can do within parameter of free will is bestowed with. Certainly a muhurtha cannot make just any body to decorate any position one desires, where as the attempts one invests for a purpose can be optimised by having proper Muhurtha.

Let me take case of marriage. The potential discordant trend existing in either of spouse can be mitigated to a larger extent by choosing a Muhurtha, which would be beneficial for both. Any negligence, or overlook on this part might lead for complication.
Therefore, in mythology we can get lot references where, kingly personalities used to ask priest to work out appropriate Muhurtha. Indeed it has its own limitation but can best tool to alleviate the trend to positive results with our wisdom of choosing a contusive Muhurtha.
Therefore I am of the opinion that, Jyotish should be used for deriving good period for performing any events rather than attempting to forecast future, which does not help to much extent, diabolically demoralise some time.
Pranam
anmohiey

Sudarshang

Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Sudarshang » 08 Jun 2015

Anmohiey

you have several valid and commendable points in your thought process. The primary purpose of astrology from Itihasa and Purana it may appear would be to election of a muhurta for starting an event as opposed to even remedial measures. We do not see any "planet devata propitiation" to ward of ill effects. Sahadeva was an eminent astrologer who fixed the muhurta for the Mahabharat war. But even in the face of all the troubles the Pandavas underwent, we do not see them priopitiating planet devatas for relief!

In the case of Dasaratha, his or his maharanis' horoscope did not dictate the performance of Putrakameshti - because, putrakameshti is recommended as a generic remedy for anyone desirous of having male child. It seems to have been performed even in Kaliyuga. There are references to one Asuri Kesava performing Putrakameshti yagam at Parthasarathy temple in the 11th Century AD (Source: One of the temple wall paintings in the Parthasarathy temple, Chennai).

These yagnas, if improperly conducted, may have unintended side-effects it may seem - like Lakshamana and Shatrugna (twins) born to Sumitra, and Draupadi being born as a side effect to the Putrakameshti performed by Drupada because his maharani did not return in time to be present as the critical moment in the yagna. Even though conducted in astrology selected muhurta, the outcome of the events did produce unintended and unexpected consequences - outcomes that astrology did not seem to "control" it may seem.

Sudarshang

Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Sudarshang » 08 Jun 2015

A 12th Century saint, Swami Parasara Bhattar, in his commentary to Kaisika Puranam (48th chapter of Varaha Puranam) describes/defines the purpose of each of the "Vedic scripture". In there, he describes Jyotish as the science of selection of Muhurtha to decide when to do a significant event. This is in line with your thought process.

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Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Anmohiey » 08 Jun 2015

AUM GUM GANAPATHAYE NAMAH

Dear Sudarshan,

Thanks a lot for information, I which I was not aware of. Indeed, rational mind even today says to what extent remedial measures could be effective as being tangible, so as Jyotish. I choose perhaps Shree aadi Shankaracharya's advise of performing any ritual would be beneficial as Bhakti - devotion path for self realisation.

Therefore it is apparent, what much of us to day are attempting to do, as committing to forecast future was not in line with Jyotish!

Pranam
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Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by tylorechandra » 08 Jun 2015

Jyotisha is a Vedanga being one of the six limbs of Veda namely Vyakarana (Grammer), Chandas (Meter), Shiksha (Intonation), Nirukta (etymology), Kalpa (ritual) and Jyotisha (Astronomy and Astrology).

Jyotisha is itself divided into three Skandas and six Angas. The Skandas are Ganita Skanda (dealing with Mathematics), Hora Skanda (prediction) and Samhita (mundane matters). The Angas are Gola (astronomy and observations), Ganita (both Astronomical and Astrological), Jataka (natal Astrology), Prasna (horary Astrology), Muhurta(choice of proper time for events) and Nimitta (omens).

I will reiterate that Muhurta is but a part of the whole.

Vedas can be fully understood by the fully realised souls. Upanishads and Bhashyas were introduced to explain some of their meanings to the less knowledgeable. Puranas rank below Upanishads and are for enlightenment of ordinary persons. These are mostly in the form of easily understandable stories.

Trying to fix the stature of Jyotisha using Puranas is not meaningful according to me.

TKC

Sudarshang

Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Sudarshang » 09 Jun 2015

Anmohiey wrote:AUM GUM GANAPATHAYE NAMAH

Dear Sudarshan,

Thanks a lot for information, I which I was not aware of. Indeed, rational mind even today says to what extent remedial measures could be effective as being tangible, so as Jyotish. I choose perhaps Shree aadi Shankaracharya's advise of performing any ritual would be beneficial as Bhakti - devotion path for self realisation.

Therefore it is apparent, what much of us to day are attempting to do, as committing to forecast future was not in line with Jyotish!

Pranam
anmohiey
While we we can say authoritatively based on Evidence from Itihasa and Purana is that, Jyotish was indeed used to determine the Muhurta for events,

I would debate this from another angle - if a king used astrology to determine the muhurta to wage war against an opponent, he would used the same astrologer to determine whether or not he would win the war. If the future predicted that he would lose the war, he would have refrained from waging the war, and would have waited until the right dasa-bhukti to wage the war.

Yet, against the ravaging Islamic forces, almost all Hindu kings, barring a few, had to lose. Given so many kings in India, was no one running good dasa-bhukti during the time of Islamic Invasion? Since these invasions were enforced on the native population, one might conclude that there would not have existed an opportunity for the Kings to determine a muhurta to counter attack.

Coming back to the Puranas let us talk about remedial measure and/or divine intervention. Duryodhana got the help of Sahadeva to determine the Muhurta for the Mahabharat war such that Kauravas would win. Sahadeva recommended to give sacrifice to his (Duryodhana's) kula devata and start the war on Amavasya. When Krishna enquired as to why Sahadeva helped his opponent, Sahadeva said, "Krishna, when you are with us, why should I worry about Shastra and Sampradaya. As long as you are with us, I know victory is ours!" Such was Sahadeva's trust in Krishna. In the end, Trust in Krishna won the war beating the astrological Muhurta that was determined. It is also another matter that Krishna caused confusion by offering tharpan on Chaturdasi day instead of Amavasya, resulting in the war starting a day before the muhurta. This he did, so that the sanctity of the shastras remained intact, and he wanted common man to respect and follow the shastras in future.

From this it would be clear that "Divine Intervention" does matter and can be used to win over the outcome. Markandeya conquered death owing to his trust in Shiva; Savitri conquered death for her husband, Sathyavan, owing to her faith in patrivrata dharma; (There are foot notes to both these episodes that I am not publishing owing to the sensitivity of readers) They knew the future, and took remedial measures to overcome that destined future that was predicted possibly by Jyotish.

It is this, that gives hope to the individual - that despite the destined future, there is some remedial measure that can help one overcome a future hardship. However, this has a karmic reaction, about which, I will write later in the "Remedial Measures" section.

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Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by qwert123 » 09 Jun 2015

we are in dwarpa yuga .. kali yuga expired 200 years ago as said by Sri yuketashwar gii

Please read the holy science by yuketshwar giri

Snr

Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Snr » 09 Jun 2015

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Last edited by Snr on 14 Sep 2015, edited 1 time in total.

tanmish

Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by tanmish » 09 Jun 2015

Dear Sudarshan-jee,

Very nice post. I have a question - why did Krishna only want "common man" to follow shastras, not everyone? Aren't the kings, devatas, asuras, etc required to follow the same rules, or are they exempt? Please explain. Do the vedic concepts, astrology, etc. apply to non-Hindus, if so how?? I've always wondered about that.

My theory is that most people are "children of lesser gods", divine intervention is not for everyone - was never meant to be. In other words, God differentiates, god decides whom will get favors and who won't, god takes sides (assuming you believe in god of course) ... And it is regardless of past-life karma, present-life appeasing the gods, etc etc. Has to be - otherwise there would be no clear winners AND losers. And, I may add, though I haven't lived enough years on this planet to test this thorougly, it is what I've come to believe given my personal life and family background.

Its the meta-physical equivalent of pure Darwinism - survival of the fittest, all else can perish. Of course, these are just my views, everyone is free to form their own views........... :|

Isn't it true that 80-90% people have less than perfect horoscopes, and right there - their lives ARE going to be sub-par and/or below expectations. No amount of remedial measures can help as it was meant to be - not "pre"-destined, just destined! In other words, set your expecations low, and you may just sail thru life a happy camper!!

Tanu

Sudarshang

Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Sudarshang » 09 Jun 2015

Tanmish

I do believe in God, and that there is one and only one God - no Hindu god or other Gods of other religion. That said, He is an impartial God. Therefore I do not believe in "children of lesser gods". One only becomes a child of a lesser God by limiting himself through his belief system...there are various belief system that try to restrict their God to a framework through their religious text - however, He is a limitless, unfathomable God that you cannot know through your senses.

He has intended the Shastras to be for everyone. The collection of Vedic Scriptures as a whole - Shruti, Smriti, Vedangas, Itihasa, and Puranas are common to mankind at large. The Vedic Scriptures are His own word, delivered via the Rishis and others. They are meant to be the "user manual" for how to live life. Everybody - Kings, Devatas, Asuras, etc. also have their respective rules to follow. Vedic concepts like astrology etc. are applicable to all human beings - not just Hindus. We are a product of our Karma. Each human being, animal, insect, bird, plant etc. is born because of his/her/its Karma. You are the decider of your future. He does not intervene. Simply said, he has put the process of Karma to work, sits there on top and watches everything that is happening, without interfering ....i.e without interference, until you ask him to interfere through propitiating him. That also does not mean he WILL interfere. you can pray to HIM to interfere - to interfere or not is His decision - If He likes you so much for being a gyaani or a bhakta - he might interfere in extreme cases - like he took Narasimha Avatar for the sake of Prahlada, like He appeared to save Gajendra from the alligator, like he offered Saree to Draupadi at the time of need.

It is not survival of the fittest - Darwin was wrong - Everyone/thing that is born has to perish - but the perishing only means casting the body out and moving into another body. The Soul (Atma), which has taken this body, based on its karma, will acquire another body and keep repeating this process until one fine day, when it has exhausted its karmic balance entirely, will go to God's Kingdom, from where there is no return to this world.

Horoscopes only reflect the balance of karma you are born with in this life - there is no horoscope for the Atma - it was never born and it never dies. Therefore it only governs this life - you get another horoscope for the next life. Karma from Past lives govern current life and future births. However, nothing is destined. You have a free-will to act. Decisions are yours. Intelligence to act is yours. You have the responsibility to choose Dharma over Adharma and act accordingly. This is where one needs the help of the Vedic Scriptures - to determine what is Dharma and what is Adharma. If you choose to act in an Adharmic way, it is your decision, and you will be only one that will be held responsible. According to the act, you acquire papa karma (for Adharmic acts) or punya karma (for dharmic acts). That karma in turns determines future lives. and so on....God does not interfere in this process - He is simply indifferent and keeps watching in the majority of the cases.

Snr

Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Snr » 09 Jun 2015

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Snr

Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Snr » 09 Jun 2015

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Last edited by Snr on 14 Sep 2015, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by qwert123 » 09 Jun 2015

ohh that was a great post SNR sir

i wasn't aware about subyugas .

thanks

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Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Anmohiey » 10 Jun 2015

AUM GUM GANAPATHAYE NAMAH

Perhaps cuddling is in process, but thought of we are in Dwapara Yoga is ambiguous!

For all rituals we take sankalpa, saying ".........kaliyuge, Jambu dweepe......", all rituals of magnanimous scale to personal, it is being considered as 'kaliyug'.

However, the discussion started with how convincing deriving at future period prediction through individual horoscope?
It is apparent that, there are no such seers of yore in present day time to decipher and explain amidst us. We are able to express what we assimilate, most of the time, reading translated versions, without knowing degree of doctrine the text has undergone!

When we read translated Nadi granthas, Jyotish classics, etc. the author at several junctures feel dictum not appropriate and adds his own views as modifies its substance by suspecting, corruption creped in as there could have been many a re-writing from original!

Thus what to day we are able to read is authentic to what extent itself is dubious!

We, the follower of Sanathana Dharma, consider the personalities lived in previous Yugas as much evolved soul. Hence, evidently much of the predictive astrology not in main stream but DHARMA, was considered paramount important is what evident from the Puranas - Mythology.

The Vedas, which we held at high Esteem, if I am rightly given knowledge, was not much contains any astrology signs, prediction part etc, but emphasis has been given on path to be traversed as being part of society. It is true that, the Vedas what exactly contains and how it is applicable to this period of time; relevance significance as guideline to enlighten creature like me is intangible and debate can go on !
Pranam
anmohiey

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Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Sudarshang » 10 Jun 2015

The concept of sub-yugas is a modern interpretation that does not have any pramana in any Vedic literature, as far as I know. Vedic Literature - comprising of Shruti, Smriti, Vedangas, Itihasa, and Purana - have collectively given us knowledge about those aspects of existence, that we cannot know by using our senses (or inventions we may come up with using these senses). Without vested interests, created for welfare of mankind alone, this collection of literature is held by many as the firm source of truth and knowledge about Brahmam. However, it does not reveal this knowledge in an obvious manner (rather, it reveals it in a hidden manner) as a result of which many schools of thoughts have come up based on various interpretations. Not all interpretations are true! Some others have extrapolated partial information from the Vedic Literature, added their own sva-kapola-kalpitham (imagination) and created newer theories. The wrong interpretations, and imaginative extrapolations will not stand the test of time and will eventually fade into oblivion.

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Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Anmohiey » 10 Jun 2015

Dear Sudarshan,

The intent and content which I failed to put it in right perspective/forms of words through my last post have been presented by you in refined and sophisticated way. Salute to you.

The way I have been thinking has been given boost through your commanding knowledge.

Yes, of course each can have their own opinion, impression, school of education. But sincerely it has been effort to elicit real truth. The debate can make every one richer by not only participating by also perusing.

Pranam
anmohiey

tanmish

Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by tanmish » 10 Jun 2015

[quote="Sudarshang"]
Karma from Past lives govern current life and future births. However, nothing is destined. You have a free-will to act. Decisions are yours. Intelligence to act is yours. You have the responsibility to choose Dharma over Adharma and act accordingly. [/quote]

Conceptually what you've written makes sense, and I agree with most of it, but this is higher-order thinking - again, something which not everyone is blessed with.

To give you one example, long ago I came across a family that unfortunately had 2 disabled children, both in their 20s (at that time). One was mentally challenged (insane but home-cared not institutionalized), the other was physically handicapped and bed-ridden for life. They had a full-time maid servant to take care of them, another to cook/clean etc. Obviously they were very well off but their father did not even live past 60, died of cardiac arrest.

1. Whose karma is this - the children's, the parents, everyone together?
2. Where's the concept of free will when you're bed-ridden for life (not sure it was congenital but they were that way from childhood)?
3. What is the purpose of such lives, if any? I mean, its sad and distressing for everyone but there is no remedy, let alone a quick and easy fix. No astrological help either.

The only saving grace was their daughter, and kind-hearted son-in-law, who took care of much of the family, expenses, and in general looked after their well-being. So every now and then, one comes across situations that don't make much sense. Of course, one can explain it all away as some fault in their stars and the like, but that isn't a very satisfactory explanation for me.

Anyway, I hope I conveyed what I was trying to say - there are always exceptions to ALL rules, and not even the Gods can or will intervene as you rightly said.

TM

Sudarshang

Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Sudarshang » 10 Jun 2015

tanmish wrote: Conceptually what you've written makes sense, and I agree with most of it, but this is higher-order thinking - again, something which not everyone is blessed with.

To give you one example, long ago I came across a family that unfortunately had 2 disabled children, both in their 20s (at that time). One was mentally challenged (insane but home-cared not institutionalized), the other was physically handicapped and bed-ridden for life. They had a full-time maid servant to take care of them, another to cook/clean etc. Obviously they were very well off but their father did not even live past 60, died of cardiac arrest.

1. Whose karma is this - the children's, the parents, everyone together?
2. Where's the concept of free will when you're bed-ridden for life (not sure it was congenital but they were that way from childhood)?
3. What is the purpose of such lives, if any? I mean, its sad and distressing for everyone but there is no remedy, let alone a quick and easy fix. No astrological help either.

The only saving grace was their daughter, and kind-hearted son-in-law, who took care of much of the family, expenses, and in general looked after their well-being. So every now and then, one comes across situations that don't make much sense. Of course, one can explain it all away as some fault in their stars and the like, but that isn't a very satisfactory explanation for me.

Anyway, I hope I conveyed what I was trying to say - there are always exceptions to ALL rules, and not even the Gods can or will intervene as you rightly said.

TM
Tanmish

Karma is always each to his own - I can't exhaust your karmic balance or you can't exhaust mine. While it is sad to physically relate with or live with disabled children - the basics still hold good.

Each of the body of the two disabled individuals is owned by the respective Aatma as a results of that Aatma's Karma. While it is not able to physically interact with the world, and do what other people in the world are doing, it is continuing to exhaust some of it highly cruel papa karma. The aatma is the experiencer. Through its experience of pain, it is exhausting its papa karma. That it is unable to exercise its free will unlike other people is also a form of "pain" it is suffering as a result of its balance of papa karma. The kind hearted son-in-law and daughter, are exhausting their papa karma, having to take responsible care of the disabled person, while simultaneously gaining their punya karma of being helpful to the disabled persons. This punya karma gained by them in this life will give them a better birth in their next life.

But this process will continue playing in an Auto-play mode and God will not interfere. But, please be aware that anything can happen - the bed-ridden person may be able to exercise free-will and in heart turn to the Lord for help through Bhakti. If his hearing faculty is intact, he can listen to Vishnu-sahasranama every day - even if he not able to chant, that is fine. If his hands are ok, he may in worst case do atleast Anjali mudra to the Lord. The daughter or brother-in-law can read Srimad Bhagavatam so that the person can listen the Lord's stories...there are remedial measures that can bring divine intervention. Always, remain positive in adversity and look for an converting the situation into an opportunity.

Snr

Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Snr » 10 Jun 2015

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Sudarshang

Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Sudarshang » 11 Jun 2015

Even in a person that is in completely vegetative state - like Coma, as long he/she is not declared clinically dead, the Atma is active. The body may have ceased to react to the pain, but the Atma is undergoing extreme form of suffering since it is unable to exercise its control over the sense organs that have failed. That atma is exhausting its papa karma through that pain. The same is the case in a mentally unstable person - The Atma is still active and undergoing the pain of inability to control the sense organs to work coherently.

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Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Crystalpages » 30 Jun 2015

Sudarshang wrote:Even in a person that is in completely vegetative state - like Coma, as long he/she is not declared clinically dead, the Atma is active. The body may have ceased to react to the pain, but the Atma is undergoing extreme form of suffering since it is unable to exercise its control over the sense organs that have failed. That atma is exhausting its papa karma through that pain. The same is the case in a mentally unstable person - The Atma is still active and undergoing the pain of inability to control the sense organs to work coherently.
So Atma does suffer and it is atma that commits the sins and incurs karma and the so called karmic debt a term that gets tossed around in modern mystic circles as fresh or re-warmed celestial pop-corn!

Good to know!
Rohiniranjan

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Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Sudarshang » 30 Jun 2015

Crystalpages wrote:
Sudarshang wrote:Even in a person that is in completely vegetative state - like Coma, as long he/she is not declared clinically dead, the Atma is active. The body may have ceased to react to the pain, but the Atma is undergoing extreme form of suffering since it is unable to exercise its control over the sense organs that have failed. That atma is exhausting its papa karma through that pain. The same is the case in a mentally unstable person - The Atma is still active and undergoing the pain of inability to control the sense organs to work coherently.
So Atma does suffer and it is atma that commits the sins and incurs karma and the so called karmic debt a term that gets tossed around in modern mystic circles as fresh or re-warmed celestial pop-corn!

Good to know!
Crystal,

Think of it like this - Atma is the seat of knowledge. It is the sentient being within the insentient body. Pleasure or Pain is a type of knowledge - Favorable knowledge is pleasure, unfavorable knowledge is pain. Who is the knower? The Atma. Therefore Pleasure or Pain is always to the Atma and not to the body. Same way, Atma is the decision maker, a decision that it implements using the body. Being the decision maker, if it decides right, and acts right using the body it gets punya. if it decides wrong, and acts wrong with the body, it gets papa. So the karma is attributed not to the body but to the Atma, the decision maker. Balance of papa/punya constitutes the Karmic Balance. Karmic balance decides what one is born as in next life.

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Re: Jyotish - facts and Myths

Post by Crystalpages » 14 Dec 2015

Sudarshang wrote: ...
Crystal,

Think of it like this - Atma is the seat of knowledge. It is the sentient being within the insentient body. Pleasure or Pain is a type of knowledge - Favorable knowledge is pleasure, unfavorable knowledge is pain. Who is the knower? The Atma. Therefore Pleasure or Pain is always to the Atma and not to the body. Same way, Atma is the decision maker, a decision that it implements using the body. Being the decision maker, if it decides right, and acts right using the body it gets punya. if it decides wrong, and acts wrong with the body, it gets papa. So the karma is attributed not to the body but to the Atma, the decision maker. Balance of papa/punya constitutes the Karmic Balance. Karmic balance decides what one is born as in next life.
Sorry ji, I must have missed this response so far. Thanks for taking the time.

I was not implying that the body has the karmic debt, but rather the mind where the knowledge, experiences, memories, pain and pleasure etc are felt! Even physical pain (diseases, etc) are *felt* at the mental level.

Mind is a functional concept and not a homogenous singleton unitary entity and some think of it as the interface between the physical and the spiritual-philosophical *entity* known as soul or perhaps a limited representation of soul.

Clinical information (including objective F-MRI observations) have indicated that patients in COMA and deep general anesthesia, unlike previous beliefs, remain aware of their surroundings and exchanges (conversations etc) in progress while the patients were clinically in coma or anaesthetized. So obviously, lights are not *out* even when they seem to be so to an observer.

Mind can be viewed as the fingers-hand of soul whereas the glove is the body, using a surgical analogy.

Regards,

Rohiniranjan
Rohiniranjan

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