The Sidereal vs. Tropical debate

[Murad]

Simple as this people that i kno who are Virgos act nothin like Virgos because their Sidereel Zodiac is Leo!! There's nothin to compare its all there and i kno how their thinking is! That's it END of discussion, Western Astrology IS CRAP! Lol.. if more people knew their true signs maybe they wouldn't be as clueless as they seem, get on this wagon..

[Vaughn Paul]

Dear TheOne, Murad and others,
First of all, this debate cannot and will not be ended. Astrology is too complicated and mysterious for that.

One of the main points of my article is that the 12 signs of the zodiac represent a developmental sequence that is inherent to life. For instance, anytime you begin a project it is like the Aries quality of taking initiative, and when you end a project it is like the Pisces quality of dissolution. Likewise, when you overlay this developmental sequence over the seasons it makes perfect sense with the cardinal/moveable signs marking the commencement of the Seasons - Aries is like Spring, etc. So then if you make Vernal Equinox the time that the Sun enters Aries, the Sun's position will make some sense.

You've got to understand that there is good logic to the Tropical Sayana system and it will convey some truth. It can't convey the whole truth at all because on the Vernal Equinox the Sun is actually in Pisces! The other obvious limitation is that the planetary positions are then based entirely on the Sun's movement and the seasons. To call someone an Aries or any sign will never give a complete picture, because this can only be derived by a holistic analysis of the chart, especially giving primary importance to the faster moving indications than the Sun: the ascendant, and Moon. You can easily derive someone's main character traits from the ascendant and Moon alone, without taking the Sun into account at all.

I've never found any limitations to describing personality using the Sidereal Nirayana positions, but I do see that there is some facet of truth to the Tropical Sayana system. Vaughn Paul

[Murad]

I understand the other points in the chart like Ascendant and stuff but seriously.. i make a chart of my mom

for example she matches exactly what she is in Vedic not Western sorry but Western Astrology has nothing

accurate about it. And another thing, They need to change the dates of Zodiacs example Aries April 15 -

May 15 not March 21- April 20. Your logic is basically saying there's multiple gods when there's only 1 just

like saying there's multiple types of Astrology, there's 3 that are known (Tropical,Sidereel,Iau) but those

two aren't the 100% right form of it. There's nothing difficult to understand,when you stop doing sins and get your head clear you'd be able to differentiate, just like me.

[Vaughn Paul]

Dear Murad,
When you've studied Western astrology at least 10 years and Vedic astrology at least 10 years then you may have some knowledge to compare the two systems with. If you haven't studied Western astrology seriously then I think it's highly presumptuous and arrogant to say that there's no validity to it. I have not studied it and have no interest but I understand enough about it to know there's some validity to it. Vedic sidereal astrology gives me everything I need to give an accurate reading, including describing personality and psychological traits, so I have no need to look elsewhere. But I know there is some basic sound logic to the system, even though it's not based the actual astronomical positions of the planets relative to the fixed stars. Vaughn Paul

[Murad]

lol.. trust me i understand everything that's needed to be understood but im just saying that WESTERN IS NOT

ACCURATE so you have to take that into consideration that its completely unaccurate because its off!! the

basic sounds logic of it is maybe the descriptions of the Aspects and Signs or whatever are right everything

else is wrong.if you have everything you need to make a right reading then you should know there's no comparison.

[Vaughn Paul]

Hi Murad,
Western astrology is only off from the vantage point of the fixed stars. It's not off when you recognize the validity of a different vantage point based on the Sun/Earth relationship. To say there's no validity to that is to say that humans aren't affected by the seasons. It's fine to recognize that you prefer the sidereal Vedic system, but doesn't it become a bit fundamentalistic to say there's no validity to other systems of astrology? Vaughn Paul

[Murad]

uhh idk :l i really dont care now im starting to really not believe in it anymore i think people can act or look however no matter when or what time they where born i know 3 people with the exact same birthday as me and they look nothing like me actually.. not even close and nothing close to my personality. but whatever bro keep doing this if you like it so much i think ima go ahead and stop doing this ridiculous kid stuff time to grow up and face reality.its a sin anyways so... its for the better i guess.

[Vaughn Paul]

Dear Murad,
Astrology is not a sin, in and of itself. It depends on how it's used. You can do a lot of good with astrology because it is a system for gaining perspective, and when people are going through a difficult time, there's nothing more that they need then an accurate bird's eye perspective. Vaughn Paul

[shilpa]

Dear all,
Western astrology and their Zodiacal system cannot be dismissed as crap.

It just gives a diffrent perspective on a native...almost like the navigation system in the car which you can set with arrow, either always pointing North....or in the real direction of travel...or with a 3D view etc....
All settings are giving you diffrent perspectives of the same situation.


In Western Astrology you look at chart from a completely diffrent persepctive, that of character, personality , traits Emotional quotient assesment.
It's an general analytical tool....and not a predictive tool on a time axis ( Dasha system) like Vedic astrology is.
Sometimes with my limited undertsanding of western analytical based approach...... I find it may be a more useful tool for mundane astrology and analysis of social phenomenon's with access to Neptune and Pluto also.

Even within Vedic astrology there are so many persepectives...the lagna, the surya lagna, chandra lagna, hora lagna, Indu lagna etc.....each one gives a different perspective on the native.

Vedic astrology further offers multiple techniques to derive the answers to the same problems....as Parashari, Jaimini, KP and modern PVR Rao methodologies.
And it offers multiple persepctives to view the same problem.

Vedic Astrology's UNIQUENESS lies in it's depth....and nuances and subtleties such as YOGAS and amazing predictive capabilities throuhg various time axes ( Dasa systems) on which the natives life can be superimposed.........
and an ability to pick up a piece of native's life chart and put it under powerful microscopes ( called Divisional charts) and examine them both qualitiatively and quantitatively under time axes ( dasa systems).

Various cultures offer variety of knowledge forms...it's good to compare them.....but perilious to dismiss any of them with disdain.

regards

[Murad]

Yah i was jus mad lol i always wanna be right xd but uhh yeh i see wat you sayin and those 3 ppl i was talkin boutt act almost exactly like me and look pretty close to me jus different lagnas is all hahah i liedd :p btw thanks Vaughn and Shilpa : )

[Saindhavi]

Thanks, Vaughn Paul ji for that article.

It explains the complex differences so clearly, even a layperson can understand it!

I feel a major difference is that Western astrology uses the psychology, emotions and personality traits of an individual to predict how an individual has faced his/her situations in the past or will face them in future.

On the other hand, Indian system uses the Karma theory for prediction. Western system doesn't rely on Karma, but more an individual's predisposition to act in a particular system.

Moreover, Western concept of time is linear, while Indian concept of time is cyclical, as reflected in the Dasha system.

[Santu]

Dear Learned Ones,

I have had both Western/Sayana and Vedic consultation personally. I was surprised to find the analysis remaining the same in both.

From what I observed,the Sayana system predicts the events based on current transits unlike the Vedic system of Dasa , divisional charts and the like. In Sayana its just one chart that does the trick!
There are not many in India who practice Sayana, but I was happy to find one very successful practitioner close to my place.

I feel that both the systems should not be viewed as "competitors" to each other. They have their own approach, method and significance different from each other.There may be a discussion, but not a debate.

I am a beginner, and want to master both before I say "Bye" ...

Regards & Respect,
Santu.

[Saindhavi]

Here is a very interesting comparison between the Western and Indian astrological systems -

http://www.livingskillfully.com/compare.html

This entire website is very interesting!

[Valens]

I think the term 'Western Astrology' is being used a little liberally here. From the sounds of things, you are all describing Modern Psychological Astrology, this is much different to what I would term 'Western Astrology'. The Western tradition goes back at least as far as the Hellenistic times. There is a rich predictive tradition of the Arabs and the Persians, some of which has for sure found its way into Indian astrology. The Greek/Perso-Arabic astrology most definitely predicts very well and I actually find it works a lot more accurately using a Sidereal Ayanamsa, as do many practitioners of this tradition. The majority use a Tropical system yet still manage to make successful predictions. To me, this says more about the richness of our existence than some ego-centric view of 'my way is better than yours'. It is my aim to synthesise as many traditions as possible into a coherent system for prediction as I believe everyne has some stuff which works real well and some stuff which doesn't.

[Valens]

Moreover, Western concept of time is linear, while Indian concept of time is cyclical, as reflected in the Dasha system.

This is very much an erroneous view when considering Hellene and Perso-Arabic techniques. These astrologers, for instance,used the Primary Direction of the Hyleg (or Hilaj in Arabic) through the bounds (or terms as they are known in some circles) to show the time-lords for specific times in the native's life. Vettius Valens also was a proponent of Zodiacal Releasings from a couple of the Lots (aka Sahams) to show the times of peaks and troughs in the nativity. We also have profections in this tradition which were used in conjunction with Solar Revolutions by the Perso-Arabic astrologers and these are treated extensively by both Masha'allah and Abu Ma'shar in their respective books.

Even up until the 1600's in Europe these techniques were the main players in an astrologer's toolbox for predictions. I think it is wrong to assume that Western astrology is what it became in the 20th century. There are some things which are vastly superior in the Western tradition, so the arrogance shown by some Indian astrologers in this regard would be amusing if it wasn't predicated on so much ignorance of other systems of thought.

[Nakshatra]

Yes we should bother & every astrologer should give an opinion & their understanding with an explanation or verification whenever possible.
I would propose a 3rd system: “Astronomical” & my simple introduction to debate

1. Tropical = Sun Rising Due East (Equinox) is first point Aries & Libra
2. Sidereal = Star Rising, most common is Spica but learn Hamal, Aldebaran, Regulus, Antares & Fomalhaut
3. Astronomical = Rising Time, Northern Equinox is midnight, 24 or 0 hour & unequal constellations

In my opinion, the first thing to learn as an astrologer is North, South, East and West with particular regards to the “Tropics” (where North & South switch).
Whenever I read the words “Western astrology” or “Hindu astrology”, I think of the writer as a bigot or at least ill-informed & should be edited.

[jay1123]

Guys, can someone suggest good downloadable softwares for chart in Western / Vedic astrology ? I'm looking for matured (in terms of errors) desktop versions as not many good andriod ones have been developed yet.

I'm also looking for western & vedic so that I can compare both charts and understand what each system has to say.

[jay1123]

As you talked about the charts in the interview, where do you get to know things like "if you have saturn / mars in Asc. its probable that you'd be technical .. Malefics actually mean technicals in Asc"

[JJDelgado]

I'm western and I've studied my two natal charts a lot. I don't feel my personality can be described by sideral system. The fact is that the astral influences go trough our collective mind, and eastern and western minds are different. So that, the signs express the energy in agreement the power of mind. Most of you are Hindustani people, and I guess you understand better than us that mind is the truly power of this universe. Astrology is just a system to describe the order of the universe that is written in our minds. So that, sideral is a way for understand that order, and tropical is other one. You look at the constelations, whereas we look the zodiac. And the mind understands those sights respecting the cultures.

We, western people, have our own system and there have been excelent western astrologers like William Lilly. Western astrology is not a crap: is a tradition. Lilly was a great astrology and he can make strong predictions based in tropical zodiac.

I do love your Hindu culture and religion, but I believe that my personal mind is influenced by the collective western mind respecting a way of looking the life.

[Mycallwashere]

Wow this discussion went off the rails.
Please have a look at this article, I know it will be interesting to many of you.


https://skydrive.live.com/view.aspx?res ... at_DHG_WsQ

M

[scorpqueen]

here in this topic some one said western means sayana system is just like having one chart unlike sidereal (divisional charts) and staring on that very one chart...... but i have a question on that person... have u heard of Primary direction and secondary direction?have u heard over lapping PNR (pre natal epoch) with PD? sayana has many more technique to pin point the events and everything. SO AT THE END ONE WILL HAVE TO STUDY TO TALK ABOUT ALL.

[olivetree]

According to this astrologer, the classical texts of India do use the tropical zodiac rather than the sidereal and he goes on to quote the texts. http://www.vicdicara.com/#/12-signs-of-the-zodiac-1.php

From the article:
.... it comes as a great shock that India’s own classical literature defines the zodiac tropically! Probably no one is more shocked by this than Indians themselves, who faithfully assumed they had been “following the ancients” by using a sidereal zodiac. Let’s look at a sample of what Indian classical texts actually say.
Sūrya Siddhānta
The most authoritative, fundamental Indian text on astronomical astrology is Sūrya Siddhānta, a title which declares the book to be “Perfect Conclusions of the Sun.” Several early places of the book seem to disfavor sidereal and favor the tropical definition of the signs:
1.13 says that the signs are identical to the tropical months:
A solar month begins when the Sun enters a new zodiac sign. There are twelve months in a year.
1.28 states that the signs are mathematical divisions, not constellations:
60 seconds (vikāla) make a minute. 60 minutes (kāla) make a degree. 30 degrees (bhaga) make a sign. 12 signs (rāśi) complete the circle (bhagaṇa).
3.9-10 gives the principle on which ayanāṁśa is based: that the stars and signs are different; evidenced by their changing positions in relation to one another: [1]
In one age (yuga) the circle of stars lags behind 600 revolutions towards the east. Use a formula [math omitted for brevity] to find the current location (ayana) of the equinox relative to the stars.
The above references could support the tropical zodiac, but texts 7-10 of the Fourteenth Chapter explicitly and unequivocally put it in black and white:
It is well-known that the circle of signs is split by two diameters. One is the line from equinox to equinox. The other is the line from solstice to solstice. Between each solstice and equinox are two other markers. Each solstice /equinox and the two following markers represent the three strides of Vishnu.
The Sun has entered Capricorn when it begins moving north for six months. It has entered Cancer when it begins moving south for six months. Seasons last for two signs each, beginning from Capricorn with the frozen season. The twelve signs named Aries, etc. are the months which altogether comprise the year.
Here, Sūrya Siddhānta plainly says that solstices and equinoxes define the 12 signs of the zodiac. Capricorn is defined by the Sun beginning to move north at the winter solstice, and that Cancer is defined by the Sun beginning to move south at the summer solstice.
Śrīmad Bhāgavatam
Śrīmad Bhāgavatam is held by most Indians to be penultimate Pūraṇa representing the full maturity of Indian thought. Its fifth division concerns astronomy. Texts 2-6 of the 21st chapter of that division define the twelve zodiac signs, unambiguously, as tropical:
Outer space is measured by relation of heaven and earth. The Sun is the king of all the planets, in the center of everything, keeping everything together. It moves to the north, crosses the equator, and moves to the south. When it goes north of the equator days get longer. When it crosses the equator days and nights are equal. When it goes south of the equator days get shorter. On this basis the Sun moves through the twelve divisions called Capricorn and so forth.
The Sun is at Aries and Libra when the days and nights are equal. Passing through Taurus, etc. the days become longer and then decrease until again equal with the night. Passing through Scorpio, etc. the night becomes longer and then decrease to again become equal with the days.
Thus it is impossible to deny that Śrīmad Bhāgavatam presents a tropical definition of the 12 zodiac signs."