Root of Astrology

[chess]

Dear All,

Instead of debating about "Root of Astrology", I think it is better to discuss about "Effect of Astrology"!

How can we justify "Root of Nature?!

Still I can indicate some points as per my understanding.

Our sages would have keenly observed nature. In Full Moon days the waves of Ocean raise vey high and New Moon days low waves and quite.

This would have led them to enquiry that " If a non-living entity like Sea is affected by a planet Moon ,then how come it is possible that a living being like man would not be effected?!

In full moon days many people are found to go mad,hence the word "lunatic"!

Then the sages would have seen the behaviour pattern of many persons. A mars dominated person is clearly different from a jupiter dominated one. A sun ruled person is different from a moon ruled person.

Slowly our sages would have devised meanings after keenly observing nature and humans.



krishna................

I don't think we are still on the same page completely. On the one hand you are using deduction and reasoning and on the other hand you are saying that there is more than just deduction and reasoning. Deduction and reasoning is scientific argument. So when you are saying effect of moon and ocean it is deducing that one thing causes another. When you start observing behavior with moon that is again correlation. So there is "science" involved. Now to say that there is no science is denying the logic that you are saying on the first point itself. I am not saying that the "current scientific" approach is sufficient and that it would explain everything. Contrary to what you might think from my first post I do believe that the earlier rishis new something more than what current scientific methods. However, it must have evolved over the years and we have now lost that science. It is interesting to think about what we have lost.

[chess]

Anupam,

There are some very good points that you say. I have been traveling and haven't had a time to put a reply together.

My thoughts (not necessarily in the order of your response):
1. Past life:
You may have had the experience that compels you to believe in past life. I don't have that experience and I don't have a rational logic to prove it. As a result I tend to be cynical about these things.
2. Freud and Jung et. al.
I was not talking about psychologists and psychotherapy. I am experimental observation like MRI related brain tests and related topics. So we are off in terms of what you and I are talking about.
3. You point about discouraging astrology, that was hardly where I was driving at. I was driving at giving a better rigor and analysis, be open to help from the "current scientific" methodologies. It can help expand and understand better
4. "Scientific crude terms"
I cannot believe that you really believe "scientific crude terms" is the right adjective for reasoning and analysis. Astrology itself is based on math. Do you call that crude too? How would have people come to the conclusion that planets and the related math had anything to do with human behavior? do you really think that would have come out of the blue?
5. With all due respect, in "crude" terms you have to go through the process of observation, hypothesis and proof. For me it is "intuitive" to think about it.

More on this later. We have diverged a lot from what the initial discussion was. I am interested in hearing from you. I suggest that we break down the thread into multiple topics. One clearly for me is psychology, the second topic is after and before life, third "scientific methods for astrology". Please have a go at each of the topics on a different thread.


Best Regards
Chess

PS: I am interested in hearing your experience of past life, I think you have had one. Have you posted it somewhere?

Not sure if I understand how you came to the conclusion of the impossible to collect statistical evidences from feeling that you can do them more efficiently

Dear Chess,

We have already lots of statistical evidences in terms of past births but what worth they got today in the scientific world? We have Brian Weiss and his famous book 'Many lives and many masters'. We have Ian Stevenson who was literally expelled from Psychiatric community for presenting his data on past birth studies. So, precisely speaking statistical evidences are already there but if still someone wants to do his own personal search he is most welcome to go ahead.

As far as research upon unconscious mind is concerned yes they are there. I have read Freud, Jung etc.etc. There can be many more I have not read yet but surely I want if you refer me. But my point is why bother about statistical evidences, of course it is my completely personal view. I don't want to understand the past births mystery only and wasting my time in front of disbelievers just to make them believe that it exists. So, for me it would be better to find one truth, unreveal it at subjective plane with open mind and go ahead to find more. Same goes with astrology. We can go on collecting statistical and replicable evidences to prove it as a science and surely that can take our whole life time.

But what we would ultimatately get accept proving its validity that is just part of unending mysteries of this world? Then another mystery may be awaiting for us like life is nothing but dream. So, for me it is far better to reach the root cause of all these mysteries and understand everything in their entirety instead of wasting my time in finding the validity of just one thing. Of course they are my personal views according to my mind set instead of discouraging those who want to go ahead in astrological world. Every soul has different aim on this earth according to its individual needs and I don't find myself inspired in finding just one truth in this single life. I also count myself in skeptics but I also know after a certain point you cant prove anything by mere statistics. However, it is very much tedius task to make this understand since as I said before we believe what we experience not beyond that.

For example we can go on argumenting that god with form is nothing but mere mental projection. But that would be sheer dry intellectual discussion. We may go on speculating as per our mind set. But the reality can only come before us by real experience not before that. For example if god is a mental projection what about this world? Scriptures also say that this world is also a projection of mind from where we may prove it statistically? And why at all? There are lots of things in this creation that cannot be proved and only can be understood on subjective plane like Karma Theory. Of course we can give examples and pointers but that will not make them appear in modern scientific crude terms.

You said that the depth of unconscious mind can be measured. Till a certain point I can accept it but beyond that I can only say I respect your personal view. The mystery of unconscious mind can only be experienced on personal plane and then we can talk a little bit about it but we can't explain it in its entirety by modern scientific methods. Scientific evolution is one thing but here we are talking different thing. There are lots of things that science has left to Heisenberg theory of uncertainty because it found it hard to explain somethings according to known scientific methods. And they may remain unexplainable because everything you cant understand with external instruments. So, first of I want to know when you talk about science you mean to say modern science of today or the various stages from which a real scientific man must go through like observation, experimentation and hypothecation.

It is exactly what I said intuition is experience based learning

I respect your personal view but it is not a complete truth. As I said earlier in one of my posts, in the same section, that till the time I was taking care of all sub sub periods to grab the right time frame of my prediction I was getting failed repeatedly but when I just said in a trite that the event would happen within a month that happened exactly verbatim. But that was in no way related with my so called astrological experience in all reality I told what I felt inside. Still, today I can't explain the reason of my predicted astrological time frame of one month. So many a time intuition is not just a thing that comes out of experience. I have so many examples in this regard out of my life. This one I just gave to explain my point.

[chess]

USR,

Good point, expanding our observation powers can help understand more of the unexplained. And just want to reinforce it is based on science as we know and expands upon the ways to think about intuition or super powers etc.

Regards
Chess

In certain fields the animals exibit more intuitive powers and their organs function better than human beings.Like dogs,donkeys ,birds etc are able to observe the nature and forewarn the impending sunami or earthquakes etc. They can detect UV/IR lights and very low and high frequency sounds.What we can't hear and see they can .Perhaps in this unknown region the mystery of spirits may exist.If the science can endow us with this additional talent we can understand the nature,future events and can gainfully use the spirits to guide in unravelling the human life.
People who feel that they possess more intutive powers may be having higher sensory power and it may be possible.Some people if they say something it happens most of the time may be due to some power in their words.If the word is good we are lucky,if it is bad word better we pray before doing the job for divine help.It may fall into Omens.

[krishnagopal1968]

Dear Chess,

You say
-------------------------------------------------------
I don't think we are still on the same page completely. On the one hand you are using deduction and reasoning and on the other hand you are saying that there is more than just deduction and reasoning. Deduction and reasoning is scientific argument. So when you are saying effect of moon and ocean it is deducing that one thing causes another. When you start observing behavior with moon that is again correlation. So there is "science" involved. Now to say that there is no science is denying the logic that you are saying on the first point itself. I am not saying that the "current scientific" approach is sufficient and that it would explain everything. Contrary to what you might think from my first post I do believe that the earlier rishis new something more than what current scientific methods. However, it must have evolved over the years and we have now lost that science. It is interesting to think about what we have lost.
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I think we all still are on the same page completely but according to our minds!

Deduction and reasoning are necessary tools but you haven't used it fully. Only when you use it fully, then alone the other realm which is beyond both opens.This I have experienced, many times.

Now don't conclude that earlier rishis knew something more than current scientific methods. Experiment fully as much as possible. But it is is possible only if you start without any prejudice as a scientist. And how can you say that current scientific approach is not sufficient? That statement from a scientist is valuble. But you are not a scientist i suppose.you are just curious. Only curiousity without deep desire won't lead to reality. you will lose interest in this question, in a week at most!!

Let me ask you at first why this question to know the root of astrology has come to you? Don't say that just like that. Reason,deduce and come to a logical answer. Then you will know that it is because of your question creating mind. just observe how long this question will remain. Mostly it will disappear after your mind starts another!!


krishna................

[USR]

Dear Chess,
It may look odd but it is true. Advanced countries do research on this.
USR

[revribhav]

The old texts advise us to predict according to "desh,kaal ,paristhiti" (time,place and circumstances)of the native.
We may predict remarriage to a person whose customs allow that,otherwise it could be a secret liason.
It would be futile to predict child birth/marriage to an old man of say ,90 years.
Abour Rajyoga persons serving Govt in the capacity of a minister,a jaudge,a police constable have varied degrees of raj yoga.