The link between karma and the planets

[sachinwadhwa]

“You have also brought up a very interesting question. Why should anyone want salvation as against perpetual presence in swarga? I am assuming here that for a person who has not attained salvation Swarga vaasa is a sojourn and he has to return to earth for his next life after enjoying swarga as long as his karma phal would enable him”

Dear lovacrs,

I think you are correct. Swarga is meant for people who do lot of religious deeds and in return ask god for materialistic things…they continue in their endless journey…when their good deeds are exhausted they come back to this planet….to continue their journey...

Salvation ends your journey, while swarga shows you a good phase of your journey…In any journey there are good and bad times, but what is important is to end the journey and realize the ultimate truth. But to choose between Swarga or salvation is a discretion of the soul….or the Master :) who knows.....

Swarga or materialistic wishes are meant as a check point....before getting salvation, every soul needs to cross that check point...if they pass they get salvation, if they fail they get Swarga or materialistic wishes....then they fall from their current spiritual level

To me it is always Master's decision and discretion, till the time slave becomes part of master and starts speaking master's language....

[sachinwadhwa]

[quote="rajitha"]
So, Anupamji, I don't know if free-will would have helped here. Everything seemed to be pre-destined.[/quote]

Rajitha ji,

Free will works but only between the parameters prescribed by god. A spiritually realized soul will provide help only if the receiver is destined to get it. So free will is a medium used by god to achieve what he wants too. But free will can never be used against the will of god, even if a spiritually evolved person tries too, he won't be able to provide any benefit. Free will is a medium... through which energy accumulated by someone is released for the benefit of the other at the discretion of the master. Even the use and benefit of free will is pre destined...

[sachinwadhwa]

“But I think if I would go further it may be possible that I may hurt someone's sentiments which I don't want to do. So, for a time being I am stopping this discussion and wait to see where it is heading then come again.”
“Sachin Ji I dont want to propagate unduly that I have got realisation.”

Respected Anupam ji,

My apology, if I have hurt you or anyone on this forum. The intent was to not so. Sorry again.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences.

Regards

[sachinwadhwa]

Thank you Anupam Ji,

It would be very helpful if you can explain the relationship between Mahabharata and this yug change.

Regards

[lovacrs]

Dear Anupamji,

[quote]So, it can be rightly called Dharma Yudha instead of mere dispute between two families.[/quote]

Though I agree that the overall balance of dharma lies in favour of paandavaas, I still dont see the scale of adharma to be as to warrant a divine intervention. I am just comparing this to other epics that involved divine intervention (incarnation). Even in Sri Krishna's period his fight with Kamsa or Jarasandha did not get elevated to the status of "Dharma Yuddha" even though the scale of adharma by them was probably larger than that of Kauravaas.

Keeping one's word may have been dharma for Kshatriyaas also. Even Gods feel obliged to keep their word. If Krishna would not break his vow not to lift an ayudha (which would have ended the war with dharma winning with loss of life of just the kaurava brothers) why fault Bhishma for keeping his vow?

And I think trying to keep to one's vow is in keeping with swadharma (one's own values) and is a noble act. The mischief of ego is not in keeping the vow but in actually making it. When a person makes a vow he thinks that the World obeys him to enable the vow to be fulfilled. It is worthwhile to recall that Bhishma also made another vow (that he will make Sri Krishna take an Ayudha in his hand) and Sri Krishna had to come to his rescue to fulfill this.

[quote]but going to Devaloka does not mean to attain salvation at all. [/quote]

I thought that death-rebirth cycle affects only Mrityuloka and residents of devaloka are beyond death and rebirth.

CRS

[sachinwadhwa]

[quote="p.mahesh"]If everything is done by his Majesty, what is relevance of Dharma and Adharma?
Why Lord Krishna introduces that illusive word “Dharma” and creates confusion among people? [/quote]

Mahesh ji, I will share my thoughts on this. God created this universe, created souls like you and me, then created this set up for it to run, Created rules of the game for us to follow. These rules are dharma which we need to follow to win (to achieve our final motto). Now relate this to the game of chess, all of us are having different roles of pawn, king, queen, etc and we are moving thinking that we are moving as per are own wish, but reality is that there is someone else who is playing the game of chess. Coming back to the real world, our movement is governed by so many different aspects which are out of our control. So there must be someone who controls everything. Even if there is chaos, it is planned chaos and has happened as per his wish.

There is one question for which I have been searching for an answer and have not found one. What was the need to create this world, create souls, and make them operate / work as per rules? What was the need of separating a soul from his original master? Anupam ji, can you please help us on this one.

[/quote] That means Kaliyuga is the creation of God Himself. Then He should be responsible for all good and bad in this Yuga.
If one thinks what is happening, Dharma looks absurd. The definition of good and bad interchanges.
But, is this way God runs this world? [/quote]

I agree with you Mahesh ji that this is his creation and he is responsible for good and bad. What we need focus is why is he running it this way? Why are we in first place? Why were we originated thousands / millions of years back?

Regarding definition of good and bad, do you remember who you were in last births, what type of karmas you did, the answer is if you have a divine eye, you will know it else no. There is equilibrium in his world, “What you sow, so shall you reap”. Today’s politicians must have done good deed and are thus enjoying benefits of it. The catch is that by enjoying benefits or doing misdeeds, they are consuming their good karmas of previous birth but are not doing enough good karmas in current birth to sustain the same status in future. Now coming to you and me, we might not have done so great karmas, which is why we are ordinary people suffering due to our current politicians. However, what we need to do is to maintain our good karmas in this birth, so that we can achieve benefits in future. Our focus should not be of enjoying materialistic benefit, but to follow the path of spirituality. Through spirituality, we can free ourselves from current birth. But if we get in to enjoying the material benefits then we will continue our endless journey of running after material world. Stand alone, thinking about your current birth, things do look absurd at times, but when a spiritual person looks in to it, he sees all your births and identifies a pattern. Then things become crystal clear. However, dharma ensures balance and equilibrium in all yugas.

[/quote]People can meditate and see past births and present one. CAN SOME ONE VISUALIZE IF ANY ONE FROM HIGHEST SPIRTUAL PLANE IS LIKELY TO LAND ON EARTH IN 2012-2014?Mahesh[/quote]

Mahesh ji,
Of course yes - People who are blessed with divine eye do visualize and share their experiences. But, the question is whether we are fortunate enough to know it in advance. God is not doing anything for the entertainment of masses or for fun. There is a specific reason to it. Only divine people know it and only when they are allowed to share they will share. For example, Anupam ji shares only that information which he is allowed to share. This holds good not only for him but for all souls who are blessed with divine eye. Regarding the timing, it will be debatable till the time things actually happen.

Coming to whether someone will descend on earth or not, when a person plays a game of chess, the game is running only because he is playing it. Similarly, HIS MAJESTY has been on this planet since inception. One of the beautiful examples you and Anupam ji had given were of the curd and planets which look different based on the medium we are using to observe it. So with a naked eye you cannot see him, but with a divine eye, he has always been here in all yugas. Only thing I would like to add is that his interaction and the style may differ from person to person.

Regards

[sachinwadhwa]

Respected Anupam ji,

1.
“There is one question for which I have been searching for an answer and have not found one. What was the need to create this world, create souls, and make them operate / work as per rules? What was the need of separating a soul from his original master? Anupam ji, can you please help us on this one.”

Can you please share why god started this creation…what is the use / Intent?

2.
“Sounding illogical no matter, but tell me does this life seem be logical for you on human plane???”

Agreed Anupam ji, I also believe that these things cannot continue for long as it is a big mess. However, as I am living on Human plane and under the influence of maya, so it is very difficult to find a solution except for praying to his majesty. That’s what I do. However, like we have discussed, I will continue to wait for the right time.

3.
“After sometime I realised that those lies about time duration was purposely done by that divine energy.”

Absolutely correct - The only question I have is why? If his majesty says that some particular event will happen in say Oct 2008, and it seems everything is going great and suddenly everything vanishes in thin air and nothing happens. One feels stumped. Why will the lord give incorrect timelines that to purposefully? This makes the spiritual person cut a sorry face in front of others. Can you please help unfold this mystery?

4.
“This is called life and evolution of soul yuga by yuga.”

Anupam ji, what is important for us to know is what transformation did the soul of Ravana underwent to be born as Bhima in Dwapara and then as spiritual person like Vivekananda??? There should be a particular nature of the soul based on Karmas. If there is no transformation, then there is no change in the nature of soul and the characteristics of Ravana’s soul would remain the same in his next birth. However, if there is influx of positive vibes in the soul (which we can say as the transformation of soul) only then he could become Bhima / Vivekananda. Please throw some light on this topic.

5.
Also, why will god bring the same set of souls again and again for end of every yuga??? He has so many souls with him but why will he carry the same group.

Regards

[lovacrs]

Maheshji,

Some of the questions that you raised and the responses that Anupamji has given set me thinking. For e.g, we have more humans today than in the past. How do we account for the increased number of souls? Also does it mean that the number of souls active on Earth has always been the same? (may remind us of entropy in Physics!).

If we extend the management concept to this, I understand GOD as a macro manager in the usual course who sets rules (the zodiac and planets are system controls that enforce these) and allows us to micro manage. For all our actions we get the reactions/results based on these rules. Whenever he encounters serious problems he rolls up his sleeves and gets into micro-management mode (incarnations).

CRS

PS: It is not my intention to reduce the discussion to a joke. But sometimes, simple analogies help me understand things better.

[sachinwadhwa]

Respected Anupam ji,

1.
“We as a soul even before coming to this earth have ego” (Excerpt from your post on the 6th page, dated 2 august)

Pardon me, if I asking the same question again. From where did the soul originated and why? If soul is part of god, why did god separate a part of him as souls and gave them ego. I do understand the journey, and how soul after getting ego reaches its ultimate master, but reason for separating the soul from the master and giving them ego is still not clear.

2.
“The woman, Sita, he abducted in Treta came as his guru's wife Sarada Maa.”
“Go more deep and think about Supernakha again. she became attracted towards Rama and in the next yuga she as Draupadi became sakhi of Sri Krishna. In the next yuga she became Meera and at last wife of Ramakrishna Paramhansa.”

Anupam ji, I am confused. So did Sita of treta yug become Sarada maa of 19th centuary or Supernakha of treta yug became Sarada maa? If Sita was not Sarada maa, where was Sita?

3.
“A world war like situation would be there undoubtedly but at the last moment someone may come and take hold of the situation to stop the catastrophe.”

You had spoken about lot of turbulence, wars between 2 religious sects, mass deaths etc. Now do you think that will not happen because lord will come and take charge?

4.
“First of all I should say Mahesh Ji Vivekananda was a free soul already. That was what told by Ramakrishna to Vivekananda in their very first meeting that he was the incarnation of Narayan Rishi and Ramakrishna was Narayan himself.”

Vivekananda was incarnation of Narayan Rishi, Vivekananda was also Ravana and Bhima. I do understand the journey of the soul from Ravana to Bhima to Vivekananda, but how did Narayan Rishi landed up as Ravana would be surprising.

Regards

[sachinwadhwa]

Respected Anupam ji,

1.
“It does not come it is already there because before coming she was in the world where nothing is created but it already exists instead of coming from somewhere. Even knowing and realizing that she is the part of God comes in the arena of ego but of course it is the subtlest part of ego.”
“If there would not be any creation what God will know because there is nothing to know except endless sea of energy without parts which he is in all reality. “

Most of this discussion went as a bouncer to me. I read it few times, but it is still not very clear. Is it possible to explain the life cycle with a help of an example. I think it is difficult to understand the concept theoretically, however, when a person experiences / sees such things with divine eye, it would be more absorbing / convincing.

2.
“He is not doing anything in this regard. Do you think child rapes, kidnaps, murders are happening according to his wish?”
“So, this creation is nothing but his play. He is playing, he is weeping through every eye, he is eating through every mouth, he is killing, he is getting punished, he is crying in pain, he is dancing jubilantly. He is doing everything. Remember only 'he' nobody else. Now tell me who separates and to whom at all? Nobody is separating from him.”

In one example we have learnt that it is free will of the soul which is doing all the killing, kidnaps etc.
In second example, we have learnt that this creation is nothing but his play, he is playing crying, weeping, killing, dancing, etc. This means that eventually, what is happening is his wish, which contradicts our first example.
I am not sure if I have understood this completely. But personally I agree with your second example. I believe everything good or bad is his wish. Even though, we may think that the results are based on the free will of the soul, but in reality it his wish. He is running this play the way he wants to run it.

Regards

[sachinwadhwa]

Respected Anupam ji,

I will write what I have understood. Please correct me if I am wrong. I will take my example:

I am a soul which knows that I am part of god. I have existed in this world when nothing was there. The ego I had was of being part of god and knowing that feeling. I didn’t have the knowledge of how it feels not being god. Going by the principle of duality, I wanted to experience how it feels to be unlike god. Now, this thought gave birth to other thoughts of happiness, sadness, etc. These thoughts also existed in the form of duality. To experience those mass of thoughts, the world is created, with duality of all emotions, so world is nothing more than the mass of thoughts. In order for souls to experience their thoughts, these souls start descending on earth. Once these souls land on earth they forget the very fact that they are part of god. So they start behaving like mortal creatures and get grossed in to material world. This means I came in satyuga on this planet based on my initial thought. The birth I took was based on the thoughts which came across to me initially. Now I am in an environment where I would realize almost all the repercussions of every desire or thought related to me. Then all my subsequent births were outcome of my initial birth and the karmas I did in Satyuga / Treta / Dwapur etc. I continue to live mortal life one after another till the time all my thoughts have been experienced. My thirst of all emotions has been quenched and I start realizing that I was a soul who was separated from the master and now I should get back to my master. So I start meditating, find a guru who helps me in coming out of this material world in to the divine spiritual world. Through this process I get realization. (However, even if I have achieved realization in one of my previous births, still on the wish of almighty I may descend on earth again to achieve his tasks and objectives.)
Now, when I go back and merge with almighty, all my thirst of various emotions has been quenched. I know how it feels in various situations. Now I have the knowledge, and no emotions left, thus no ego, therefore I become parmatma.

Thus, it is the soul which is travelling and undergoing all those thoughts and experiences till the time all the thoughts have been experienced.
I guess now I have understood that it is not gods wish to kill, murder, rape people. This is the free will of the soul to do all those acts which strikes it. However, as the soul is nothing but extension of god, thus this journey is of god himself in innumerous forms.

Coming to the 3 clues you gave Mahesh ji. Let me try to decipher it based on my example above:

“Yogananda says that even after getting salvation and merges into him a part of your ego never dies means memory is never lost even after final emancipation. In other words your individuality is eternal you never lose it. This is the first clue for unfolding the mystery.”
The experiences I have gained through my journey of being the soul always remains with me, even after merging into parmatma. I know what those thoughts are and how it feels. Thus this soul carries those experiences which provides complete knowledge to the soul and now there is no desire or ego.

“Vedas say this creation is nothing but the mass of thoughts. This is the second clue.”
As I have descended on earth to experience my thoughts, so have so many other souls. All of us collectively are mass of thoughts which became the seed for origination of earth.

“In Geeta Srikrishna says that everything is in him but he is not part of any. This is the final clue.”
The soul before starting its journey was part of god and after completing its journey it is part of god " Aaham Brahamasami". The thoughts which different souls had come across (souls are part of god, so god himself had come across), were being experienced and then soul returns back after the ego is fulfilled. Once the ego is fulfilled, soul gets complete knowledge and thus there is no desire so no principle of duality. It merges in to the endless ocean of god. This is the purest form of god.

If I have understood your earlier post correctly, request you to continue further with our discussion.

Regards

[sachinwadhwa]

Respected Anupam ji,

1.
“That is why Krishna in Geeta says that "everything is in him but he is not part of any". Now have you understand the difference between purest form of God without any desires, beyond time, space, gunas and the soul that is part of him???”

I have understood the origin completely. Regarding the above para, I will write what I have understood, to confirm my understanding. God in the purest form is without any desires. The purest form has complete knowledge of all desires and there is no desire left. Thus “everything is in him”.

However, when the soul which is part of god gets any thought / ego / desire, then the soul leaves parmatma to come down to earth to experience those desires. The soul even though originated from god has now left the purest form to experience those desires. Thus it is no more part of the purest form of god or we can say that parmatma is not in that soul because that soul has desires. Therefore “he is not part of any”.

I hope I have understood the complete cycle now. Please let me know if I am still missing anything.

2.
Anupam ji, after writing everything a thought came across my mind. What about when Lord Krishna comes down to bhuloka? Lord Krishna still continues to be parmatma. This means that he has not separated himself from the superconscious. But the purest form of god is without desires and only souls with desires come down to earth. Thus, parmatma being purest form of god coming down to bhuloka contradicts the very definition of parmatma.
Need your inputs on the above.

3.
Since a child I used to think Mother is above everyone including god. Also, between Guru and God, Guru gets first preference. So, my order of priority was 1. Mother 2. Guru 3. God. However, after our discussion, I don’t think this holds good anymore on spiritual plane.

Can you please share your thoughts both on physical and spiritual plane?

Regards

[sachinwadhwa]

[quote="anupam1968"]
Rest I will write to you later once you have understood it completely.[/quote]

Thank you Anupam ji for sharing your knowledge. Things are much clear now.

Request you to proceed further with our discussion.

Regards

[sachinwadhwa]

Respected Anupam ji,

I have few more questions. I have fairly understood your posts on parmatma, however, I still require more conceptual clarity.

1.
If parmatma is one, then are Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma all part of the same parmatma (endless energy)? Only difference may be that they are known by different names and doing the divine objective given by parmatma (endless energy).

2.
What was the need to create different lokas – swarg loka, gau loka etc. Is it for the same objective for which bhuloka has been created?

3.
The endless energy will never come to stand still, but till how long do you think bhuloka will continue and what after that? What is the next phase of bhuloka (Earth)?

Regards

[sachinwadhwa]

“Since August, 2005 whatever you have been seeing around you and world by and large projected by him.”

Respected Anupam ji,

The Venus transit happened in mid 2004. Is it anyways related to it?
There is one more transit expected in 2012.

Regards

[Basab]

[quote="rajitha"]I have been away for some time but during this time, I read around 60 pages of the book Autobiography of a Yogi.[/quote]

'Autobiography of a Yogi' is a fascinating read. It just takes us to another world--the spiritual world--which I didn't know much about before reading it.

[lovacrs]

Thanks Anupamji,

[quote]First of all I want to know according to you when divine intervention should come?[/quote]

I feel the evil forces should be large enough to affect the whole population and not just a family. This was the case in respect of all other avataars. And as I said earlier, even in Sri Krishna's case the scale of evil unleashed by Kamsa or Jarasandha was probably a better justification for divine intervention than the dispute between Kauravaas and Paandavaas.

As for the current situation I can certainly say that Kauravaas of Dwapara would pass off as saints or even Rishis compared to some of the politicians of today. Does this warrant divine intervention? I am not sure, because neither the exploiters nor the exploited are today interested in path of dharma. Both are just selfish and are complaining against each other essentially because the other camp is preventing them from achieving their selfish ends. I will be surprised if the God deems it fit to intervene to ensure that one camp's selfish intent succeeds over that of others.

CRS

[lovacrs]

Thanks Anupamji,

[quote]Vivekanada said in the past that "this country needs the dictatorship of saints unless nobody can rectify the system". Whenever any true saint proclaims anything be sure it is going to happen because unlimited divine energy is working behing his every word. [/quote]

I hope it happens.

The real problem is for every true saint there are thousands of bogus ones. Usually a true saint never proclaims. In any case for those of us ordinary mortals, we have no way of identifying a genuine saint. But divine intervention whenever it happens solves all these problems.

Mahatma was in fact closest to a saint and he passed by. The less said the better about the fate of his ideals today.


CRS

[lovacrs]

Thanks Anupamji.

[quote]The aim of Ved vyasa while he wrote Mahabharta was to show the struggle between individual dharma and the dharma of spirit.[/quote]

Looking at Mahabharath as a work of literature of a creative mind and as a narration of a divine incarnation are two different matters altogethar. In the former case, the need for justification can simply be the creativity of the Kavi.

In fact this is exactly the question that some writers have discussed in their version of Mahabharath.

[quote]Do you see this kind of struggle in Ramayana or Dev-Daanav yudhas in satyuga? I think no. Most of the characters of Mahabharta have their hearts on one side and mind on another and this dichotomy was erased by Krishna in the war of Mahabharta through his Geeta.[/quote]

I see Vibheeshana in a similar predicament in Ramayan or for that matter Rama himself when he killed Vaali clandestinely. Situation of Prahalad was also not very different. Probably people in those ages did not need the kind of preaching that Sri Krishna did to Arjuna.

[quote]But we get a hint in Mahabharta about the condition of the subjects under the rulership of Dhritrashtra.[/quote]

True. But it is depicted more as due to inaction on the part of rulers as against "ruler driven" evil.

CRS

[sachinwadhwa]

Respected Anupam ji,

1.

“Sounds almost unbelievable Mahesh Ji? Seems like a complete mythological tale?”

I have written the below question a few times and erased it, thinking that I may offend you or Parseshwara. However, my intent is to gain knowledge and not to offend.

I want to know what makes him write all such divine experiences to the audience of this forum. Does he want to connect with few persons interacting on this forum or does he wants to pass on a message to the audience of this forum? If he wants to convey something to us, he can do it directly in spiritual form, what benefit is he foreseeing in conveying this in physical form. You also say that there is a reason to everything.

So, I think there is something more to it. Can you please ask him – I am really curious to know


2.

Request – when you edit any of your posts especially on previous pages, please let us know. We don’t want to miss any fraction of divine knowledge.

Regards

[lovacrs]

Thanks Anupamji,

[quote]But of course the modern historians may only locate the historical facts in the Mahabharta and may term it as mere literary work without considering the fact that Ved Vyasa wrote it who was a sage rather historian. Every mind is different and only by understanding it ,without being prejudiced, we can understand what he really wrote [/quote]

I agree that Ved Vyas had lofty intentions when he wrote Mahabharath. Most, if not all, of what is written in Geetha was already there in other scriptures though not as succinctly as in Geetha. Now, for a moment if you were to look at Mahabharath in complete isolation from the rest of Sri Krishna's life, it would appear that the role performed by Sri Krishna in Mahabharath could have been done by any person with exceptional (still human) intelligence, diplomacy, knowledge (of multiple things like warfare, dharma, astrology, management etc..). Coupled with the fact that it was a mere family dispute (agred that there were questions of dharma embedded in the dispute. But such family disputes are as old as mankind and every dispute invariably has dharma juxtoposed against adharma), there are enough logical grounds to question whether it was a divine intervention at all unless we go by the story that Ved Vyas just wrote what Lord Ganesh narrated.

I am of-course not belittling Mahabharath. Even as a work of literature it is one amongst the best if not the best. But these questions, I notice are not plausible in respect of other epics where the scale of evil was far higher and divine intervention showed up in a way that it would have been impossible for ordinary mortals to do what was done.

[quote]Rama also killed Bali without any grudges on his part. According to him Bali deserved that retribution because he used to rape the wife of his younger brother Sugriv. So, honestly speaking I really don't know how you are bringing these characters whereas I am talking about tremendouns struggle between mind and the spirit which was the hallmark of Dwapara yuga.[/quote]

Many philosophers have pointed out that marriage is not a valud institution amongst animals (vaanaras in this case). In fact Sri Ram is supposed to have admitted it as a folly and given a boon to Vaali that he will kill him a similar way as a hunter in Dwapara yuga in his Krishnaavataar.

I see parallels between Vibhishana and Arjuna. Both had to fight against their kinsmen to protect dharma. In fact Ravana was own brother for Vibhishana while kauravaas were cousins for Arjuna. I am sure the creative mind of a Kavi would have found a Guru like Drona etc, in Ravana's camp fighting for him though they were quite convinced that he was an adharmi. In fact I have read some versions of Ramayan where Indrajeet himself advises Ravana that he is deviating from Dharma but finally opts to stay with him.

As for Prahlad, it was his own father that he was pitted against.

Essentialy, if the writer had desired he could have unravelled divine knowledge using these situations much the same way as Ved Vyaas did in Mahabharath.
As such Mahabharath is just one amongst the many Dharma Yuddhs that have happenned.

All this takes me back to my central question: Is Mahabharath a story of divine intervention at all and if so what is the reason for HIM to choose such an ordinary (in comparison to other epics) situation for intervention.

CRS

PS: I am sorry if I sound argumentative. But unfortunately I am limited by logic, though I have the humility to accept that things that are not logical can still be true.

[Basab]

[quote="rajitha"]I liked reading the miracles done by sages.[/quote]

Rajitha,

That too, definitely, was one of the reasons I liked the book.

[sachinwadhwa]

Respected Anupam ji,

Thanks again for sharing divine knowledge. I will always be thankful to you for igniting the divine thought, providing clarity around soul’s journey to its final abode and showing the right direction. Like I always say that we are truly blessed to have you with us on this forum.

Waiting for his majesty (master) to completely manifest

Regards

[lovacrs]

Thanks Anupamji.

Before making any other assertion I wish to categorically say that my faith is with the philosophy and thinking that lies hidden in these epics and scriptures. I fully subscribe to the soul soothing philosophy expounded in Geetha and Mahabharath and I really dont care whether it actually happened or not.

But the journey from a state of mind controlled by intellect/logic into that controlled by faith invariably encounters the question "Am I entering the territory of divine faith or a blind belief?". There are no easy answers to such questions. Faith by definition demands zero tolerance within one's own mind (of-course a person bound to a faith can still be at peace with someone who subscribes to a different faith) to other possibilities.

I also agree fully that truth has its own absolute existence independent of logic/intellect or for that matter, faith.

My intention behind quoting Vibhishan and Prahlad was not to question their faith in their Ishta Devatha. They are indeed blessed souls to have been raised to that level and unfortunately I am not. My purpose was to point out that divine intervention did not happen to solve their dilemmas which they must have had ( and the epics also say that they indeed had) though at the end they went by their faith.

Divine intervention in Ramayan happenned (as per my understanding based on little rading that I have done of currently available versions) because right from Ayodhya upto Lanka (vast geogrphical coverage) lot of things were going wrong and Rishis were being prevented from performing yagnas and tapas (which I understand as pursuit of knowledge that is useful for mankind). That it is divine intervention is demonstrated by super human deeds (building Rama Sethu or killing a great parakrami like Ravana and Vaali. Here again I really dont care whether Ramayan actually happened or not. There are fine lessons to be learnt from it anyway.

I fully agree that inaction on the part of a ruler is perhaps as much a sin as active participation in evil deeds. But my point was completely different. As I have been mentioning, these evils are unlikely to have been rare. If we go by historians account, there must have been hundreds of such Hastinapurs in what we call as India today.

One possibility is that in many such states the state of ruling was as bad as in Hastinapur in which case either Hastinapur was the chosen one for divine intervention or there were multiple such interventions and the one that happenned at Hastinapur is chronicled.If Hastinapur was the chosen one why so?

The other possibility is that all other states other than Hastinapur were exceptionally well ruled (Utopian or Rama Raajya) which again means that GOD can set right a delinquent Hastinapur by normal means (whatever means were applied in these well ruled states) without his personal intervention.

CRS

[lovacrs]

Thanks Anupamji.

[quote]Believe me there is nothing like divine faith or blind belief. This is the path for the people who have different frame of mind. They just put the reason aside and start treading upon their path of Bhakti. [/quote]

I have to admit I am not convinced about this. There are quite a few Godmen around some of whom have claimed that they are the 10th avataar of Lord Vishnu. Many have faith in them and have become their Bhaktas. But I could not persuade myself to do that (of-course with the help of logic).

If these people still reach their spiritual goals despite these Godmen not actually being God's incarnations, I will consider that an accident (a result that was not natual for the given set of actions) which could happen anyway.

[quote]Rama killed Bali clandestinely. Now Bali was not such a spiritual soul even if he was his life did not appear to be like that according to Ramayana. [/quote]

According to what I have read, he was a great Shiv Bhakt and used to perform Abhishek to Shiv Ling with waters collected from seven oceans. He apparently used to "fly" and collect these waters himself. In one such "flight" he apparently had Ravana clutched in his arms because he did not want to be distracted till completion of his pooja.

On the contrary there are no such virtues that are talked of Sugreev.

CRS