On Destiny vs. Freewill

[Vic DiCara]

Reposted from http://vicdicara.wordpress.com/2011/07/ ... -freewill/.

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You ask, “if everything the that the body does and experiences happens in material nature – then what blame or glory is there for the soul? If everything is predetermined and I have no freewill, then I am not responsible for my actions.”

Right. If you have no freewill, you could not be held accountable for your actions. If everything that happens in the world happens only in matter, and has nothing to do with spirit – then the soul can never be blamed for anything bad it’s body does (nor praised for anything good).

However it is wrong to believe that you have no freewill and that your soul is not the origin of all the actions your body performs and everything it experiences. Very wrong.

This whole chapter [referring to Bhagavad Gita Chapter 13] is about how spirit combines with matter and what happens as a result. “Matter is changes form constantly and easily. This attracts the spirit soul who wants to shape it’s world into forms that s/he finds personally enjoyable. Thus the soul becomes welded to matter, bound to it, braided into it.”

From this, and from all the rest of the information in the chapter, we learn that this material world is a combination of matter and spirit – it is a cooperation of matter and spirit. Your question is based on a wrong definition of this combined cooperative relationship: the idea that the soul is a passive observer of matter. That is not what we hear from Krsna here in the 13th chapter. What we hear, in fact, is just the opposite! That the soul is the active principle, and that matter bends and shapes itself around the soul, and the soul’s desires. The soul is an interactive participant in matter. That is what we should learn, if nothing else, from the 13th chapter.

Your question is answered at this point. I am not sure how clearly I could explain it. I am sorry about that. If its unclear perhaps you could reread it a few times, and feel free to ask for clarification.

A little bit more to say…

Karma is the marriage of freewill and destiny. The soul desires something (freewill). It exerts this will towards matter which, being inferior to the soul, must attempt to comply. However the physics of the system of matter entails cause and effect, and inter-dependence. Therefore as the soul pushes matter in one direction with its will, the psycho-physical nature of matter itself generates a ripple, and we experience that ripple as “destiny.”

Different desires push matter in different ways into different shapes, and these generate lots of different types of ripples in the material energy – all these ripples interact with one another to make destiny (and the reading of it – astrology) a very, very, very complicated thing.

Once you throw a stone into a pond, the ripple moves on its own accord. However it is the stone, not the ripple, which caused the movement on the pond. Similarly, destiny appears to be “predetermined” – moving on its own, but actually it is the will of the soul which moved the lake of the material world and caused the ripple. Once the ripple is caused it is very difficult to stop (though it can be done by cancelling it with other ripples and withdrawing from agitating the pond, etc.). The ripple has its own force, sometimes becoming like a tidal wave. And that force seems to be, and is, beyond our control. This it feels like “predestination.” But it is our own desires which caused us to interact with the world and disturb the surface of the lake.

I have an article on this subject which more patiently and simply describes the relationship between destiny and freewill, and their interdependence and marriage in the concept of “karma.” Here is the link, I hope you will read it and it will be clarifying for you.

http://www.vicdicara.com/prep_karma.php

[shinu.mehrotra]

Suppose a snake kills a girl. Will one blame the creature for such act? Will this be a sin? or was the creature the instrument of God to kill her as her timing of death has arrived?

Similarly, if one slaps another, and if we go by the definition of Law of Karma, the erring person will be slapped many times by others in the future. But the question is- why the other person was the victim? was was he slapped? was his bad karma in the previous life? if that is, then how we can say that slapping person will be slapped many times in the future? when is the new karma?

[astroboy]

Once you throw a stone into a pond, the ripple moves on its own accord. However it is the stone, not the ripple, which caused the movement on the pond. Similarly, destiny appears to be “predetermined” – moving on its own, but actually it is the will of the soul which moved the lake of the material world and caused the ripple. Once the ripple is caused it is very difficult to stop (though it can be done by cancelling it with other ripples and withdrawing from agitating the pond, etc.). The ripple has its own force, sometimes becoming like a tidal wave. And that force seems to be, and is, beyond our control. This it feels like “predestination.” But it is our own desires which caused us to interact with the world and disturb the surface of the lake.

Excellent analogy vic ji. Simply brilliant.

[suniti]

Hi Vic-ji
well said however i feel in this topic of destiny vs free will the controversy at its essence is the meaning of life
i can't say i agree with you, nor can i say i disagree as the final point is one which is very subtle which i feel could point that possibly karma theory and fate are both music for the masses

Once you throw a stone into a pond, the ripple moves on its own accord. However it is the stone, not the ripple, which caused the movement on the pond. Similarly, destiny appears to be “predetermined” – moving on its own, but actually it is the will of the soul which moved the lake of the material world and caused the ripple. Once the ripple is caused it is very difficult to stop (though it can be done by cancelling it with other ripples and withdrawing from agitating the pond, etc.). The ripple has its own force, sometimes becoming like a tidal wave. And that force seems to be, and is, beyond our control. This it feels like “predestination.” But it is our own desires which caused us to interact with the world and disturb the surface of the lake.

heres a devils advocate viewpoint using the center point like the stone lets say its a spiders web, here the center point is the time place and genetic makeup of a person thus resulting actions. It may seem like there are infinite choices but due to the circumstances (the ones in bold) we always choose one only. Our conditionings making up the rest of the so-called journey.
Here the illusion of choice seems to be there...

Let me put it another way, suppose from this question one deduces the false nature of this world and all the laws that go along with it this could produce awe-inspiring tamas... but my feeling is at the root like all existential questions there can be a way out if we see beyond sides...

As usual its a pleasure reading your writings
Pranaams
suniti

[Vic DiCara]

Dear Suniti,

You seem to be saying that our "free choice" is predetermined. We have many choices but it is predetermined which we will choose.

If this is so, then we have no role to play in anything that we do. Therefore the law of karma is not fair. Therefore we should not be held accountable for anything we do. Therefore we should not have any fate.

Thus your argument defeats itself.

Or it establishes a universe which is blind chance and meaningless fate randomly asigned. In which case astrology is a joke.

[suniti]

Vis sir

i think you have not really understood my point,
im saying the question limits us more than that so does deciding an absolute answer
if i decide yes there is free will, or yes there is destiny
that decision is very limiting
i have faced this limitation in my sadhana so i was pointing it out

I don't advocate for either side.

pranaams
suniti

[spidey]

Just thought of sharing my favorite article on free-will and destiny -

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/articles ... d_Free.htm

[Vic DiCara]

Vis sir

i think you have not really understood my point,
im saying the question limits us more than that so does deciding an absolute answer
if i decide yes there is free will, or yes there is destiny
that decision is very limiting
i have faced this limitation in my sadhana so i was pointing it out

I don't advocate for either side.

pranaams
suniti

Dear Suniti,

Sorry!

The answer is not Yes or No. The answer is BOTH. There is destiny BECAUSE there is freewill. They are two sides of the same coin.

Maybe this article of mine explains it better: http://www.vicdicara.com/prep_karma.php

[Vic DiCara]

This also may be helpful reading - http://www.vicdicara.com/prep_why-astrology-works.php

[krishnagopal1968]

Thanks for the posts VIC.

I particularly liked this insight "Both Yes and No"

[suniti]

thanks vicji

suniti

[Vic DiCara]

Thanks all!

[believer_astro]

Dear VicJi:

Once you throw a stone into a pond, the ripple moves on its own accord. However it is the stone, not the ripple, which caused the movement on the pond. Similarly, destiny appears to be “predetermined” – moving on its own, but actually it is the will of the soul which moved the lake of the material world and caused the ripple. Once the ripple is caused it is very difficult to stop (though it can be done by cancelling it with other ripples and withdrawing from agitating the pond, etc.). The ripple has its own force, sometimes becoming like a tidal wave. And that force seems to be, and is, beyond our control. This it feels like “predestination.” But it is our own desires which caused us to interact with the world and disturb the surface of the lake.

This is so true!! Makes you think!!

Spidey Ji:

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/articles ... d_Free.htm

As I told you yesterday, this is one amazing article...Easy to understand!!

Shubhra

[namitha]

Namaskar,
Thanks for the articles VicDiCara and spidey

Freewill is our present , which we can read or understand via our horoscope which is noting but our bank balance of past karmas. - This is what i understand - plz correct if wrong

But what is the use when some one know a few things in life like :-
a. Say if we understand we or some one else is alpayu having only a shorter life

b. When we know that the combinations in our horoscope can lead us to make big mistakes - as it is predestined how to avoid it? and how far can we avoid it?

c.When a couple come to know that they wont get a child - either they can come in terms with the fact or go to enlightened souls and beg them for a change - how will this effect the present freewill? both will have a entirely different consequence?

d. In India there are lot of gals who never got married as astrologers told they have kuja dosam - (plz dont make this statement another topic for argument plz this is only a statement) even now without any dosams when some ppl come to know they wont have a good married life - prefer not to get married - so by this they avoid all the " problems" ?? This is also freewill?

e. When we take horoscope of ordinary ppl - we may see good yogas and good times in there life - but we wont be able to see the that marked change in there life - as they don’t have that drive to come up in life and change there life for good - i am not referring to material goals alone - both spiritual and material or change in life is what i intend to refer here - why this happens - is it not the lack of will power or enthusiasm in life how far is this predestined - or this is also freewill ?

Thanks
N

[Vic DiCara]

The Bhagavad Gita does NOT state that no one can exist without doing karma. Nor does the Vedanta or any Vedic Darshan I am aware of. Instead they clearly explain that when work is done without selfish motivation but for the sake of the greater good - and in the best sense, the greatest good: God's will - then the person has no reaction from their action. Thus persons doing karma-yoga and higher yogas are all acting without karmic reprecussion.

When the residual effects of previous karmas evaporate for such persons their material existence ceases and they attain a liberated condition in the spiritual sky - paramvyoma. Depending on their yoga this may mean a saujjya oneness in the brahman or it may mean a salokya personal existence in Vaikuntha.

[Vic DiCara]

In practice, most people use very little freewill. There are three "modes" of energy in this world - sattva, rajas, tamas - these three precondition us to habitual responses. The more habitual we are the less we use our freewill. However we *can* control our reaction to destiny - and in fact the purpose of being incarnated in a human body is to do just that.

[namitha]

Namita Ji,

Life is nothing but similar to bank passbook consists of 'Credits and Debts'. There is no free choice.Only after throwing the black, grey, white, pebble or stone or even a boulder he can understand what it signifies once he faces the repercussions.It is the whole aim of his coming upon this earth unless what is the use of his earthly incarnation ??? Only after throwing all types of pebbles and stones he can understand what they are by seeing the size and width of the Ripple. Then no more desire of 'Throwing' remains inside. Before that 'Adam' will keep coming with his 'Eve' on this 'Mother Earth' . That is the aim and crux of human life. Now you can better decide what is' Fate' and what can be referred as Free Will .

Thank you Anupamji for the response. what you say is quite true from some angles. When we are able to decide some thing and practice it we have a feeling that we and all others have this "freewill" and maybe we can preach - but when we are not having this freewill due to so called Fate the bank balance of past karma - we may say that we dont have.

In practice, most people use very little freewill. There are three "modes" of energy in this world - sattva, rajas, tamas - these three precondition us to habitual responses. The more habitual we are the less we use our freewill. However we *can* control our reaction to destiny - and in fact the purpose of being incarnated in a human body is to do just that.

VicDiCara ji i would also like to know how and where we can control our reaction to destiny? From "awareness" we can sure realise the depth of each act of ours. But how much complete freedom does we have in our life.

Anupam ji i do agree to you that Freewill is a never ending topic but does it not help the participants to get more polished and shining. When i was writing my earlier post some how i know you will respond to it

Thanks for the thread.
N

[namitha]

When I closely observed I found even the time of mine bathing or even taking food was fixed. What else we can say !!! It does not mean that I am against free will but for me it is not the word as we define it.

just pray, pray and just pray and request God to give us the divine discretion.

The seat of Ardh-Narishwara is considered to be the sixth chakra, that is nothing but our divine eye or agya chakra. It is said that till this point a bit 'Human Ego' remains ,hence, there is every chance to fall again. This is not mine truth but is written clearly in our yogic literature.As per Hindu philosophy we can say the state of Adam-Eve is Satwa, Apple is Rajas and Satan is Tamas. We all know these three gunas are the integral part of this creation.Adam had no option but to taste the 'Apple' of the tree, no matter when because of being eternal, at the allurement of Satan because it was mandatory.

just pray to God because only he can tell you what Free Will is !!! Even if you have it you may have no strength to apply it. If you have the strength you might be using it in wrong direction because of your ignorance

Happy 'Raksha-Bandhan' to all Sisters and Brothers

Thank you sir for the wish and same to you.
The post is very useful - thought provoking - lot of incite, some supporting my though process - which i earlier used to ignore as wandering mind.

I have a small doubt what does the colours of stones signify - sorry my IQ is bit low.

I have read the adam eve story but did not know its deeper meaning and application.

Thanks
N

[Vic DiCara]

Freewill is our present

Not exactly. Freewill is eternal - it is past present and future. Freewill in the past creates the present destiny, freewill in the present similarly creates our future.

a. Say if we understand we or some one else is alpayu having only a shorter life

If you know how long you are staying on a vacation you can plan your trip accordingly so that you manage to do as much of the things you wanted to do.

b. When we know that the combinations in our horoscope can lead us to make big mistakes - as it is predestined how to avoid it? and how far can we avoid it?

We will know HOW we make mistakes. For example I have Saturn in Aries in the 4th house. Often lack of patience and flexibility is the cause of my doing and saying things I regret. Now that I am aware of that I can be more conscientious of it and work to counterbalance it.

c.When a couple come to know that they wont get a child - either they can come in terms with the fact or go to enlightened souls and beg them for a change - how will this effect the present freewill? both will have a entirely different consequence?

Very few people even use their freewill. Freewill only really comes out strongly in the sattva-guna. In the other two, raja-guna and tamo-guna, habit and instinct is stronger than freewill. Thus most people only react, they do not pro-act.

If a couple pro-actively makes a choice to be positive about their destiny regarding children or lack thereof, than Mata Durga will treat them more kindly, since she does not need to be as punitive to accomplish her goal of teaching them some lesson as a result of their previous deeds.

d. In India there are lot of gals who never got married as astrologers told they have kuja dosam - (plz dont make this statement another topic for argument plz this is only a statement) even now without any dosams when some ppl come to know they wont have a good married life - prefer not to get married - so by this they avoid all the " problems" ?? This is also freewill?

It might be. Or it might be tamo-guna. It depends on the individual.

e. When we take horoscope of ordinary ppl - we may see good yogas and good times in there life - but we wont be able to see the that marked change in there life - as they don’t have that drive to come up in life and change there life for good - i am not referring to material goals alone - both spiritual and material or change in life is what i intend to refer here - why this happens - is it not the lack of will power or enthusiasm in life how far is this predestined - or this is also freewill ?

It is primarily because we are not good astrologers and we don't know how to evaluate charts.

I hope these answers are helpful. I have only answered because you requested me to personally.

[namitha]

Very few people even use their freewill. Freewill only really comes out strongly in the sattva-guna. In the other two, raja-guna and tamo-guna, habit and instinct is stronger than freewill.

Thanks
N

[Vic DiCara]

There are two persons…

One is attached continuously (unending) to strong, desires, goals, aspirations whether it is for self or self-less, whether it is for rich, or social cause or health etc… Thus he/she is always in touch with, obedient, cares, fear to God.

Another one who is not interested in attachment to goals and aspirations…thus a free-man. Hence there is no need/cause/reason to think about, obedient, or care for God…

Thus, practically, the first person is more inclined towards God (whatever may be the reasons)than the second one..

Hence, strong attachment is the instrument created by God for people to be in touch with/obedient with Himself…

What do you say?

Mahesh

Strong attachment to desires may or may not incline one to God. There are many very passionate atheists.

However strong attachment can become the most powerful yoga - bhakti yoga - when the attachment is transferred to love of Godhead.

[Sudarshang]

An interesting insight I read on another group

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Fate Vs Free Will.
Fate is read through the birth charts. It is a reality. The birth chart is like a divine message. The incidence of free will is not an illusion. The free will is exercised through intellect, courage and by being blessed. People do exercise free will as they try to manage the situations. The chance of success again is fated. In astrology the free will is exercised through the fifth and third houses and the chance of success of management is seen through the incidence of strong birth planets. Let me show this by way on an example of transit. Transit of Jupiter in Pisces for people born in the ascending zodiac sign of Libra led the others believe that they were aggressive in behaviour and they did not address the concerns of others. Similarly, the transit of Jupiter in Aries for the people born in the ascending zodiac sign of Scorpio resulted in conflicts in relationships as Jupiter ruling speech was having a prolonged stay in the house of conflicts. Therefore the advice for Scorpio ascendant born people is to follow the saying, "Silence is Golden" and exercise patience to save relationships. Those who follow the advice by exercising the free will gain and those who do not follow the advice fall prey to the fate which is seen through the prolonged transit influences in the sixth house.

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[elipsis]

Freewill and Destiny are one and the same, you write your own destiny by your actions. Future is determined by the present actions, you can test it if you like- take spoonful of laxatives your future will be more predictable. Planetary positions determine the soundness of your actions.

[Basab]

I feel we all have a little free will, but it's mostly destiny.