Dispositor of the Dispositor?

[olivetree]

I've come to understand that a planet's dispositor and it's strength is just as important as the placement of the starting planet. What about the dispositor of the dispositor? Does that have any bearing?

If the sun is in Libra and Venus is in Virgo- but mercury is in Virgo as well, does mercury's placement make things better for Venus and therefore also the Sun (since venus is Sun's Dispositor).?

[elipsis]

For sun to be stronger one of the enemies of Venus must deposit the signs ruled by Venus or be placed in Pisces. Mercury is friendly towards sun only when its in conjunction with it where as it will never give up on Venus, so you can't expect sun to get full support of Mercury. It only makes things better for Venus...but to counter Venus (if thats what you want) you'd have to have Jupiter or Moon in Venusian sign.

[ashtalakshmi]

For sun to be stronger one of the enemies of Venus must deposit the signs ruled by Venus or be placed in Pisces. Mercury is friendly towards sun only when its in conjunction with it where as it will never give up on Venus, so you can't expect sun to get full support of Mercury. It only makes things better for Venus...but to counter Venus (if thats what you want) you'd have to have Jupiter or Moon in Venusian sign.

I don't understand the logic Elipsis ji . If sun has to be stronger then you say all the planets that are friendly to sun also should be placed in enemy's sign? Doesn't it make the whole set of planets weak?

What if any planet that is placed in its debilitated/enemy's sign which belongs to the luminaries that owns just single sign ?
For example Mars in cancer and Saturn in Leo?

[rathore]

I've come to understand that a planet's dispositor and it's strength is just as important as the placement of the starting planet. What about the dispositor of the dispositor? Does that have any bearing?

Yes, depositor of the depositor matters resulting in formation of certain yogas like Kalpadruma and Kahala yogas.

[elipsis]

I don't understand the logic Elipsis ji . If sun has to be stronger then you say all the planets that are friendly to sun also should be placed in enemy's sign? Doesn't it make the whole set of planets weak?

Yes, it does. If planets fight each other then the entire chart will be destroyed. There is a middle ground where planets become temporary friends, where they work with each other for mutual benefits. So a perfect chart is one where no planet is stronger and that every planet is in perfect harmony with the other. Conflicts only arise if one karaka intends to overpower other by means of support which results in some parts of your life being successful while the other aspects of life a big failure. Also my advice to you and others is not to look at a sign in terms of it being enemy or friendly because that logic no longer works in real-life. Today, every sign must be looked at in terms of practicality, this means even a debilitated planet works well if its well supported.

You better study this chart: 26 May 1942, 01.00, Gujarat, Aquarius Lagna. Here, 4th Lord venus is exalted and in vargottama but its unsupported by any other planet. The native of this chart hasn't earned much in his life, he lives a lower middle class life just above the poverty line and he hasn't even purchased a bicycle in his entire life. So Venus being a 4th lord of vehicles and comforts seems like a big astrology scam but the real truth is Venus is unsupported by its depositor, nor it is hemmed in between its friends. I hope this puts exaltation and debilitation theories to rest.

What if any planet that is placed in its debilitated/enemy's sign which belongs to the luminaries that owns just single sign ?
For example Mars in cancer and Saturn in Leo?

If you want mars to beat saturn, then either Jupiter or Moon must be well placed. In nadi system - the sage gives us a very simple rule to analyse the quality and strength of a planet and that is by checking the placement of the debilitation, exaltation and moolatrikona lords of a sign. If Mars is in Cancer then its strength wholly depends on the quality of Jupiter and Moon's position in the chart. Let me give you another example: Let's assume Venus is in Aries which is the debilitation sign of Saturn, this means venus doesn't bring great quality of wealth through career (because Saturn is debilitation lord of aries), but it gives you lots of parental property - that's because Aries is the exaltation sign of Sun - the karaka for father. So if Sun is exalted or be placed with Jupiter then Venus has nothing to worry about wealth. Also, Sun behaves differently in Taurus and Libra, in Taurus the Sun is rarely malefic because its friend Moon is the exaltation lord and it will be well placed in most of the charts, this naturally shows that Sun in Taurus usually gives the native a rich or financially stable family (fixed sign Taurus).

Regards

[tanmish]

[quote="elipsis"]If you want mars to beat saturn, then either Jupiter or Moon must be well placed. [/quote]

Yikes, I don't get this at all...thought I was learning something new each day, but now my head is spinning.

Not to deviate from OP's topic, but if Mars is debilitated in Cancer (which it is, Moon's sign), how will it ever overcome any evil effects of Saturn, esp. an inimically placed Sat?

Why is no clear cut hierarchy of rules in astrology? Why just an empirical framework??

There is a hierarchy of planet strengths --> Saturn (weakest), Mars (4X stronger than SA), then VE, ME, Jupiter. Moon is 4X (or is it 16X) stronger than Jupiter, mainly due to short distance from Earth, Sun of course strongest. Rahu and Ketu even stronger than Sun though mostly malefic. I may not have this order entirely correct, but what I recall.

Why too many exceptions and not enough rules?

TM

[ashtalakshmi]

Okay so if Saturn is in Aries or Leo , which planet should be well placed, Venus or sun?
Because what you said in your two posts above are quite contradictory to each other.

What about moon in Scorpio?

Jupiter in Capricorn is better than Jupiter in Aquarius because Mars (friend of Jupiter) gets exalted in Capricorn?

And moon in Aries is better than moon in Scorpio because sun ( friend) gets exalted in Aries?

[elipsis]

If you want mars to beat saturn, then either Jupiter or Moon must be well placed.

Yikes, I don't get this at all...thought I was learning something new each day, but now my head is spinning.

Not to deviate from OP's topic, but if Mars is debilitated in Cancer (which it is, Moon's sign), how will it ever overcome any evil effects of Saturn, esp. an inimically placed Sat?

First of all debilitation doesn't attribute to weakness of a planet, its just that the sign is not very conducive for Mars to flourish. If mars is well supported by its friends then it can defeat Saturn. I hope you have come across this concept of Argala in astrology? if not you better get yourself thorough with it. Planets in 12th and 2nd have a major impact on the planet in between.

Why is no clear cut hierarchy of rules in astrology? Why just an empirical framework??

Why too many exceptions and not enough rules?

well, vedic astrology has clear cut rules, you apply them and see how far you'll get. You can't apply 4000 year old rules to present lifestyle. It's as simple as that. You'd need more than text book knowledge, you'd need practical experience. You need to ask yourself why some people are successful with their planets poorly placed, if you can't do that then you'll never understand the true astrology. Its easy for people to get seduced by all the fancy yogas which I believe makes them quite incapable of seeing anything beyond. Today the world run on practicality rather than eccentric philosophies, the signs and the quality of results have changed. As per Prof AV Sundaram who is a well known astrologer, its the exalted planet that lands you in trouble in today's age not the debilitated ones, because the society is not ready to cater to those so-called exalted planets.

Regards

[elipsis]

Okay so if Saturn is in Aries or Leo , which planet should be well placed, Venus or sun?
Because what you said in your two posts above are quite contradictory to each other.

No it isn't contradictory...I suggest you read it once again. If saturn is debilitated then its moolatrikona and exaltation lord must be well placed or saturn must reside in between its friends or strong benefics.

Jupiter in Capricorn is better than Jupiter in Aquarius because Mars (friend of Jupiter) gets exalted in Capricorn?

In some ways it could be better if Jupiter's friends are well placed. Capricorn is the most practical sign in the zodiac but has no moral codes and ethics for which to follow. I am sure it gives you material success but you also acquire other unethical karma, look at obama for instance...He bombs people and gets nobel peace prize instead.

And moon in Aries is better than moon in Scorpio because sun ( friend) gets exalted in Aries?

It all depends on how Sun, Saturn and Mars is placed.

[tanmish]

Thanks for your lucid explanation Elipsis-jee. It'll take a long time and effort for me to grasp the subtle nuances of this complex subject - the difference between "Ganit", calculation/analytical Jyotish, Vs "Phalit" or predictive jyotish. And I have not yet explored Argala and other advanced topics. Just getting comfortable with the basics first, not to mention the limitations of the software being used.

I totally get the significance of bad placements in 2 and 12, landing the Lagna in Paap kartari dosh for example. I came across a chart with 2 malefics in 2nd house (one is LL Mars, the other Rahu), and in 12th, who else but Saturn. In this situation, LL Mars seems to be negative, and causing havoc being in the fine company of Rahu. Bad placement overall. Native had troubled life all throughout, compounded by true Kemadruma dosh of Moon in 4th.

But at least the person was better off than a "zero free will" kundali I mentioned few days ago, of an autistic boy I saw at a local concert. People with congenital defects, missing limbs at birth, sensory organs damaged... aren't they forced to lead lives with little to no control? Never really understood that.

Ellipsis-jee, need your help with another scenario:

What if debilitated Saturn with Jupiter occupies 6th house Aries, for a Scorpio Ascendant? How would you interpret this specific placement? TIA

Tanu

[ashtalakshmi]

You better study this chart: 26 May 1942, 01.00, Gujarat, Aquarius Lagna. Here, 4th Lord venus is exalted and in vargottama but its unsupported by any other planet. The native of this chart hasn't earned much in his life, he lives a lower middle class life just above the poverty line and he hasn't even purchased a bicycle in his entire life. So Venus being a 4th lord of vehicles and comforts seems like a big astrology scam but the real truth is Venus is unsupported by its depositor, nor it is hemmed in between its friends. I hope this puts exaltation and debilitation theories to rest.

Regards

Elipsis ji, in this chart Venus' depositor Jupiter being in 4/10 relationship is what you call unsupported?
Then I totally agree with you because in my chart too 10th lord moon though placed in its own sign doesn't receive support from neither sun nor Jupiter. No wonder I struggle so much to establish a solid career for myself. Mercury's support is of no use
Planets exalted and own sign is totally useless .Heart breaking it is to accept.
I understand now what you mean by good relationship between planets.
Thank you.

[ashtalakshmi]

What if a particular planet has its beneficial planet is in the sign next to it and the other sign is empty?
Does it receive any support at all?

[elipsis]

People with congenital defects, missing limbs at birth, sensory organs damaged... aren't they forced to lead lives with little to no control? Never really understood that. {/quote]

Well..i am sure you'll figure out why at some point, keep working.

Ellipsis-jee, need your help with another scenario:

What if debilitated Saturn with Jupiter occupies 6th house Aries, for a Scorpio Ascendant? How would you interpret this specific placement? TIA

Tanu

Thats a good thing to have. You won't have to struggle much to find work but based on Venus' placement your income will vary.

Regards

[elipsis]

Elipsis ji, in this chart Venus' depositor Jupiter being in 4/10 relationship is what you call unsupported?

You probably remember that 4/10 has a considerable delay in giving results, so even with that relationship the results would have been quite delayed and he would not have cared at that point. To given an example, let us say Sun-Mars has a 4/10 relationship, it shows that your dad will purchase a property in your 4th/10th year or as soon as your new brother is born...because at that point he would have reached an age which is perfect for the 4/10 action to play out.

Then I totally agree with you because in my chart too 10th lord moon though placed in its own sign doesn't receive support from neither sun nor Jupiter. No wonder I struggle so much to establish a solid career for myself. Mercury's support is of no use
Planets exalted and own sign is totally useless .Heart breaking it is to accept.

Its not like that but one planet can't do anything on its own. Replace planets with people because the karakas are nothing but people that come and go throughout your life. So a planet without support is a person without any people support.

What if a particular planet has its beneficial planet is in the sign next to it and the other sign is empty?
Does it receive any support at all?

The 12th sign is the preliminary support and 2nd is the future support. The 12th always shows the support at the time of birth or in the distant future, where as a planet in 2nd shows support in the immediate future. A planet in the opposing angle shows reluctant support so it wont give any full results.

[huien1]

Hi Elipsis -

You have written before that 2/12 relationship is not considered supportive according to nadi. But now you say, 12/2 supports during birth/future respectively, can you explain please?

[elipsis]

It isn't supportive in some cases where there is a malefic or retrograde is involved. Malefics like Saturn, Mars, Rahu, Waning moon needs a more deeper analysis. Like Mars-Moon, Mars-Saturn. Mars-Rahu etc will create instability with regard to property, marital life etc

[ashtalakshmi]

You probably remember that 4/10 has a considerable delay in giving results, so even with that relationship the results would have been quite delayed and he would not have cared at that point. To given an example, let us say Sun-Mars has a 4/10 relationship, it shows that your dad will purchase a property in your 4th/10th year or as soon as your new brother is born...because at that point he would have reached an age which is perfect for the 4/10 action to play out.



Its not like that but one planet can't do anything on its own. Replace planets with people because the karakas are nothing but people that come and go throughout your life. So a planet without support is a person without any people support.


The 12th sign is the preliminary support and 2nd is the future support. The 12th always shows the support at the time of birth or in the distant future, where as a planet in 2nd shows support in the immediate future. A planet in the opposing angle shows reluctant support so it wont give any full results.

Yes I remember about the delayed results or results after much hard work coming out of 4/10 position.
Had he realized and tried , do you think he might have bought a vehicle/house after struggle?
Is this where free will not being applied?

[huien1]

[quote="elipsis"]It isn't supportive in some cases where there is a malefic or retrograde is involved. Malefics like Saturn, Mars, Rahu, Waning moon needs a more deeper analysis. Like Mars-Moon, Mars-Saturn. Mars-Rahu etc will create instability with regard to property, marital life etc[/quote]

For example, we can say gains from females if Jup disposits exalted Venus and is placed in 11th to it. What if Jup disposits exalted Venus but is placed in 12th to it, can you explain the difference Elipsis? Since only benefics are involved, can we say it supports Venus initially?

[elipsis]

Yes I remember about the delayed results or results after much hard work coming out of 4/10 position.Had he realized and tried , do you think he might have bought a vehicle/house after struggle?
Is this where free will not being applied?

For a person with such financial difficulty (venus without support) who gets wealth after much struggle, I don't think he would have spent in on vehicles. He would have saved it and made fixed deposits in the name of his kids etc. I personally believe in free will, once you understand the nuances of your chart you can find a way around it or at least soften the blow. That's why its difficult to know the future, if you do you can change it as per your convenience through sheer will.

Another chart to examine: Krishna Rao, the former director of syndicate bank who used to be a waiter. (20th Oct 1926, 23.36, Manipal, Karnataka, IN)

[elipsis]

For example, we can say gains from females if Jup disposits exalted Venus and is placed in 11th to it. What if Jup disposits exalted Venus but is placed in 12th to it, can you explain the difference Elipsis? Since only benefics are involved, can we say it supports Venus initially?

3/11 combination activates after some efforts because 3rd house shows your efforts, courage and hard earned fortune (opposing 9th). 2/12 on the other hand is quite different, it activates at the expense of something. Sun in 2nd to Venus means daughter will get the father's property share where as Venus in 2nd to sun shows father getting blessed with wealth or daughter in the 2nd/12th year of the native at the expense of his savings/position.

Regards

[huien1]

Thank you for your response Elipsis, is there any book on planet relationships in nadi? I know you provide the gist in a easy way to digest .

[elipsis]

There isn't a book on nadi which will give you textbook like lessons but for starters you can read 'Brighu nandi nadi' which has over 500 charts. Take it slowly because its not something you'll understand over the weekend.

[VioletTwilight]

You better study this chart: 26 May 1942, 01.00, Gujarat, Aquarius Lagna. Here, 4th Lord venus is exalted and in vargottama but its unsupported by any other planet. The native of this chart hasn't earned much in his life, he lives a lower middle class life just above the poverty line and he hasn't even purchased a bicycle in his entire life. So Venus being a 4th lord of vehicles and comforts seems like a big astrology scam but the real truth is Venus is unsupported by its depositor, nor it is hemmed in between its friends. I hope this puts exaltation and debilitation theories to rest.

Dear elipsis,
Namaste,
Would you please add a more specific location for this chart? Also, would it be possible have more information about this chart regarding other significations of Venus? for example:
1. How many sisters does he have? Did his sisters or sisters-in-law act as his mother?
2. Did he pray to Devi or is/was a Devi saadaka?
3. If #2 is not true, did he have any mental health issues or head injuries?
4. Did he often wear ironed and clean clothes or dirty and old clothes?

Thank you for providing enlightening examples and nadi theories.
Best regards,
Violet

[elipsis]

Place of birth is vasad I think. You can listen to him in his own words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pb3tVRsQmY

[VioletTwilight]

Place of birth is vasad I think. You can listen to him in his own words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pb3tVRsQmY

Thank you elipsis.