Marriage - Relationships

[VioletTwilight]

Assessing marriage and relationships is a tough task for learners like me due to a great variation in the type of relationships in the world. It is difficult to know which will manifest and how to see that influence on a chart. I invite learned members to kindly give their views on how the categorize and see the following types of relationships:

1. Marriage (first marriage and significant relationship between man and woman)
2. Marriage with brief affairs (e.g., Bill Clinton with Monica)
- affairs known to spouse
- affairs unknown to spouse
3. Marriage with long-term affair
- unknown to spouse (e.g. Arnold schwarzenegger with his house keeper)
- known to spouse (e.g., Amitabh with Rekha)
4. Several marriages simultaneously (e.g., Lord Sri Krishna, Draupadi)
5. Several marriages one after another (e.g., Elizabeth Taylor)
Without marriage:
6. Long-term affair (e.g, Brad Pitt - Angelina)
7. Several short-term affairs one after another
8. Several short-term affairs simulatenously
9. Several long-term affairs one after another (e.g, Salman Khan - Sangitha Bijalani, Salman Khan - Aishwarya Rai etc)
10. Several long-term affairs simultaneously (similar to polygamy/polyandry without a legal marriage)

11. Homosexuals with all the above relationships
12. More than two partners in above relationships
13. Asexual - none of the relationship at all (e.g., Adi Sankaracharya etc)
14. Married and asexual - no relationship even with marriage (e.g., Ramakrishna Paramahamsa - Sarada maata)

All of the above relationships are possible and are common around the world. There might be even more but these are the one on news most of the time. Although the very first one is considered ideal when considering marriage, 4 & 5 aren't barred for men even from dharma sastras. 1-10 were also common during the reign of Kings with multiple wives and dancer girls.

How would one see which type of category does a chart forecast? Even though there are 8 types of marriage and there is a SJC teaching that one-year of committed relationship by the native should be considered as marriage, these would fall under 1, 4, 5. However, how does one deduce if the native is in 1 or 5, if 6-10 has happened before?

Upapada is supposed to show commitment while 7th house and Venus are supposed to all "affairs", and Navamsa is supposed to "legal" marriage. But some consider all of them applicable since the native could go through all of them with the same partner. (Say Prince Charles - Camilla - affair, long-term commitment, legal marriage).

This isn't even getting into the partner's chart or marriage timing.
Thanks in advance for all your views.
Best regards,
Violet

[SuryaLagna]

Very Good classification Violet,

Lets hope that we get clear on the issue after having the views of experts!!

Regards
SL

[elipsis]

As you probably know the classical texts divide marriage into 8 categories, same-sex marriages aren't considered either in astrology or in the ancient texts.

a. Brahma: When bride's father invites groom and his family and would seal his daughter's marriage in the form of "Kanya Daan"
b. Daiva: Father offers his daughter to a young priest who performs religious ceremonies.
c. Arsha: Girl's father accepts gifts from the groom who want to marry his daughter.
d. Prjapatya - Bride is given to groom's family for the sole purpose of producing children
e. Asur: Marrying a girl after paying money to the parent's and relatives of the girl
d. Gandharva: Girl and boy are mutually attracted to one another and they consider marrying with or without the consent of their families.
e. Rakshas: Marrying a girl against her wishes
f. Paishach: marrying after molesting a girl

-----------------
Now for some combinations without looking at the ascendant. These are from nadi texts:

1. Indicator for ceremonial marriage in a female chart: connection between Moon and Ketu (M or F) or Mars and Ketu - this probably indicates Brahma vivaha, but it can be love marriage as well. (mangal-sutra/marital knot): Mars-ketu, moon-ketu)
2. Love marriage - Jupiter-Moon-Mercury, Jupiter-Moon-Venus, Jupiter-Moon-Ketu-Venus, Jupiter-Venus-Saturn-Moon-Mercury/ketu
3. Short marriage- Venus-Ketu (i dont want to elaborate here as it tends to create undue panic)
4. Long-term: Venus-Saturn
5. Single partner: Venus-Saturn-Jupiter
6. Emotional connection: Venus-Moon-Mars (disconnect: venus-ketu-moon-mars)
7. Affairs: Venus-Rahu, Venus-Rahu-Moon, Venus-Mars-Rahu
8. Several marriages: Venus-Rahu-Jupiter, Venus-Mars-Rahu-Jupiter

In nadi texts the saturn-venus is considered to be a prime indicator for a trustworthy life partner, this combination gives reliable friends but only one or two of them turns into a serious relationship. Rahu affliction can break that trustworthiness.

How to make the connection in a single chart(D1-main, D9 (post marriage) - secondary, D3):

1. Planets in mutual trines
2. Planets in mutual sextile
3. Parivarthana
4. Nakshatra lord based connection
5. Nakshatra parivarthana
6. Planets in mutual Square (4/10) - only to be considered when there no connection is established
7. Planets in conjunction

That's it for now.

Regards

[VioletTwilight]

Dear elipsis,

Thanks for the input and pointing out the Ketu connection to a marriage. Ketu is said to be promoting marriage as marriage is also a part of spiritual advancement through Grihastasrama. However, I have heard that Ketu may also break a marriage after 3 years of time if children are already born. What is your opinion on it?

Secondly, it appears that ancients tried to cover all bases with the Gandharva, Rakshasa, Paisachika type marriages as they refer to the cases of love marriage, abduction, and seduction under intoxication (we can go as far as rape for the last two cases) respectively. However, from a single chart, many types of these marriages can still occur. For example, Arjuna married Draupadi similar to Brahma vivaha, but also married Subadra akin to Rakshasa vivaaha, and Nagakanya Ulupi as Gandharva vivaha.

If we were to see a chart in current age with that kind of history (although not so heroic or blessed), what should we expect? Can we expect to see the number of total relationships (simultaneous and serial), and how each would turn out?

Best regards,
Violet

[VioletTwilight]

Very Good classification Violet,

Lets hope that we get clear on the issue after having the views of experts!!

Regards
SL

Thanks SL.

I am still unclear about the concept of marriage itself. It is tricky to know what exactly qualifies as a marriage. The eight traditional types act as a starting point, but the world is full of so many other combinations. Even in Ramayana, Vali takes Sugriva's wife, and Sugriva takes back his wife after Vali's death. In that case, what do we see in her chart? It's like one marriage - separated (?), married again(?) -widowed, married again (?). Or, marriage + short-term affair?

Will two marriages with same person count as two or one in a chart? (say, one civil marriage and one traditional marriage). A marriage is considered "broken" when legally divorced? or separated? or mentally separated? (e.g. Prince Charles going on with Camilla even while Princess Diana was alive and was his official wife).

As you can see, I am utterly confused.

[aganapa2]

Thanks Elipsis and Violet. I was trying to predict timing of marriage and tried applying it on my chart.

None of the Uppapada related positions or connections, really could justify the timing of my marriage. I got married in Ketu-Moon and the nadi text above gives a view of the same. In my case Ketu moon has 3/11 relationship and this is no way related to any 7th lord connection.

-aganapa2

[2002diksha]

Today marriages in India is more influenced by love and romance aspect(werstern influence) . youngsters get married and expect romance and when they don't get pull out of marriage,.I think thats where divorce karakas come into play. but if marriage is based on commitment then I think no marriage will fail .In my opinion divorce karakas is present in every chart. no chart is free of blemish. but at last it is in hand s of the native to take final decision. just because one bad combination is present does not mean that whole chart can be pulled off. just as someone ponied out in this forum that similar charts are presented with similar circumstances but it is left to the native itself to take the final decision. .

[elipsis]

Dear Violet,

Ketu is the karaka for salvation - it can give salvation through and from marriage, this is why charts have to be carefully observed before coming to a definite conclusion. According to some texts - Ketu can cause separation if children aren't born after marriage but there is no specific timeline and the connection of Ketu with other planets should also be considered. When Ketu isn't strongly connected with Jupiter and mercury there will no progeny in Gandharva type marriages eventually leading to divorce - this effect is taken from the story of Brihaspati and Tara (love leading to offspring).

A single chart can have many attributes of marriage as well as affairs and we can easily come up with a possible outcome by extracting the possible combinations connected with marriage- you take Bill Clinton's chart for example, using nadi principles we can draw some conclusions on it

Venus-Rahu - 5/9
Venus-Ketu - 3/11
Venus-Saturn - 3/11

This shows he has had affairs and breakups but he will eventually choose one partner.

The D9 chart shows married life, so post marriage there are indicators for affairs in his chart which is Venus-Rahu. This shows extra-marital affairs while keeping the bond of marriage intact. Connection with Saturn-Venus does not cause separation while Rahu affliction can bring affairs.

Regards

[VioletTwilight]

Today marriages in India is more influenced by love and romance aspect(werstern influence) . youngsters get married and expect romance and when they don't get pull out of marriage,.I think thats where divorce karakas come into play. but if marriage is based on commitment then I think no marriage will fail .In my opinion divorce karakas is present in every chart. no chart is free of blemish. but at last it is in hand s of the native to take final decision. just because one bad combination is present does not mean that whole chart can be pulled off. just as someone ponied out in this forum that similar charts are presented with similar circumstances but it is left to the native itself to take the final decision. .

Dear 2002diksha,

We are talking of whole of humanity here and not just India in modern times. No matter how great the commitment, a lot of people still became widows and widowers. In modern days, we can call it divorce. I would say, a divorce and peaceful separation is better than widowhood.

Also, commitment by one person in a relationship can do nothing if their spouse leaves them. What does final decision of that native amounts to anyway? They can still be "technically" married and yet live a life of single person. I have known women like that who spent their entire lives in their brother's house or father's house or some other relative's house equivalent to servant in an "undetermined" situation. Shouldn't one prefer divorce in their case if there can be alimony or remarriage possible?

On the other hand, "divorce" karakas could also mean physical separation. There are a lot of marriages in permanent long-distance relationships. One spouse in one city (or even country) and rest of the family in another. They live with brief visits (couple of months for 2-5 years) and long separation. Only tie is social/financial one. Those families act as a single person household even though "technically" marriage is still present.

So, it may not all be in a native's hands although there is no limit to what free will and karmas within this lifetime can achieve.

Best regards,
Violet

[VioletTwilight]

Thanks elipsis for taking time to explain with an example.

[2002diksha]

violetji,
Today definition of marriages is changing. today " live in" relationship is also common. what astrologers have to say about that. very few of living relationship end up in marriage. that is also short marriage. what planets have to say regarding that.
as modern India is evolving, so is society. but much the chunk of Indian society still view divorce and any separation with disdain. no doubt many alternate arrangement can be made in marriage when a couple stays together but not is validated by society. Only 1 in 100 marriage can be termed as blissful . to find true chart where all kinds of happiness is guaranteed is very rare. we live in a world of anomalies so true happiness is elusive
Regards

[shilpa]

Assessing marriage and relationships is a tough task for learners like me due to a great variation in the type of relationships in the world. It is difficult to know which will manifest and how to see that influence on a chart. I invite learned members to kindly give their views on how the categorize and see the following types of relationships:

1. Marriage (first marriage and significant relationship between man and woman)
2. Marriage with brief affairs (e.g., Bill Clinton with Monica)
- affairs known to spouse
- affairs unknown to spouse
3. Marriage with long-term affair
- unknown to spouse (e.g. Arnold schwarzenegger with his house keeper)
- known to spouse (e.g., Amitabh with Rekha)
4. Several marriages simultaneously (e.g., Lord Sri Krishna, Draupadi)
5. Several marriages one after another (e.g., Elizabeth Taylor)
Without marriage:
6. Long-term affair (e.g, Brad Pitt - Angelina)
7. Several short-term affairs one after another
8. Several short-term affairs simulatenously
9. Several long-term affairs one after another (e.g, Salman Khan - Sangitha Bijalani, Salman Khan - Aishwarya Rai etc)
10. Several long-term affairs simultaneously (similar to polygamy/polyandry without a legal marriage)

11. Homosexuals with all the above relationships
12. More than two partners in above relationships
13. Asexual - none of the relationship at all (e.g., Adi Sankaracharya etc)
14. Married and asexual - no relationship even with marriage (e.g., Ramakrishna Paramahamsa - Sarada maata)

All of the above relationships are possible and are common around the world. There might be even more but these are the one on news most of the time. Although the very first one is considered ideal when considering marriage, 4 & 5 aren't barred for men even from dharma sastras. 1-10 were also common during the reign of Kings with multiple wives and dancer girls.

How would one see which type of category does a chart forecast? Even though there are 8 types of marriage and there is a SJC teaching that one-year of committed relationship by the native should be considered as marriage, these would fall under 1, 4, 5. However, how does one deduce if the native is in 1 or 5, if 6-10 has happened before?

Upapada is supposed to show commitment while 7th house and Venus are supposed to all "affairs", and Navamsa is supposed to "legal" marriage. But some consider all of them applicable since the native could go through all of them with the same partner. (Say Prince Charles - Camilla - affair, long-term commitment, legal marriage).

This isn't even getting into the partner's chart or marriage timing.
Thanks in advance for all your views.
Best regards,
Violet

One important thing that applies to all apsepcts of atsrology...but especially more to Marriage is the Desh, Kaal, Patra...espeiclaly the desh part......a lot of things about marriage / divorce/ second or multiple marriages/ and pre-marital relationships vary from Desh to Desh......divorce are for example not so stigmatically neegative in western first worlds.
Also they vary vastly when looking at Manushya Jataki vs. Raj Jataki ( common man vs. the class ruling ).........where multiple marriages were commonly acceptable for the royals but the common man had to live with one wife only...i.e Kaal and Paatra also play a role.

althouhg I have written seperate threads on it......some pointers:

1) Look for 5th house for Romance and Love affiars, 7th for marriage, 11th for secret and post married affairs and extra marital relations
2) 2nd and 3rd of Rasi and Navamsa for the 2nd and 3rd marriage respectively

regards

[rjnth]

Elipsis.. Appreciated your knowledge on jyotisham and your technical knowhow sharing with querist.
Your are keeping flag high for your guru who taught this subject.

Violet.. Very good queries. Let me abreast you particularly on show business like Filmdom. Romance or extra things happen because of costarring film longtime may be because affection,talent or status.There are also who wants to get tagged in this relationship without getting married.Filmstar would be bachelor but it is kama or desire to have too many link ups.Anyway that is their pvt life, I have no reason to tresspass

As you said about Draupadi, your thoughts on her is wrong. Draupadi married to Arjuna, when Arjuna took her to Kundi for her blessings, without looking at them, she showered blessings to Arjuna and told him to share with his four brothers whatever now he has received. Thats how Draupadi and Pandavas got linked.

[elipsis]

Elipsis.. Appreciated your knowledge on jyotisham and your technical knowhow sharing with querist.
Your are keeping flag high for your guru who taught this subject.

And I appreciate your comments, all credit goes to my teacher and the teacher of all teachers

Regards

[VioletTwilight]

One important thing that applies to all apsepcts of atsrology...but especially more to Marriage is the Desh, Kaal, Patra...espeiclaly the desh part......a lot of things about marriage / divorce/ second or multiple marriages/ and pre-marital relationships vary from Desh to Desh......divorce are for example not so stigmatically neegative in western first worlds.
Also they vary vastly when looking at Manushya Jataki vs. Raj Jataki ( common man vs. the class ruling ).........where multiple marriages were commonly acceptable for the royals but the common man had to live with one wife only...i.e Kaal and Paatra also play a role.

althouhg I have written seperate threads on it......some pointers:

1) Look for 5th house for Romance and Love affiars, 7th for marriage, 11th for secret and post married affairs and extra marital relations
2) 2nd and 3rd of Rasi and Navamsa for the 2nd and 3rd marriage respectively

regards

Dear Shilpa,

Thanks very much for the input. However, I think my trouble is to understand what exactly counts as a "marriage" and how we see it. When affairs without any ceremony happen, sometimes they push the "parents-approved" marriage to 2nd marriage. Sometimes not. Is there a way to know for sure?

Best regards,
Violet

[VioletTwilight]

Elipsis.. Appreciated your knowledge on jyotisham and your technical knowhow sharing with querist.
Your are keeping flag high for your guru who taught this subject.

Violet.. Very good queries. Let me abreast you particularly on show business like Filmdom. Romance or extra things happen because of costarring film longtime may be because affection,talent or status.There are also who wants to get tagged in this relationship without getting married.Filmstar would be bachelor but it is kama or desire to have too many link ups.Anyway that is their pvt life, I have no reason to tresspass

As you said about Draupadi, your thoughts on her is wrong. Draupadi married to Arjuna, when Arjuna took her to Kundi for her blessings, without looking at them, she showered blessings to Arjuna and told him to share with his four brothers whatever now he has received. Thats how Draupadi and Pandavas got linked.

I wonder where exactly I said anything wrong about Draupadi. She was married to five Pandavas "legally" at the same time (i.e, she can act in the role of dharma patni to any of the pandavas doing any dharmic ritual). She also had five "upa-pandavas" born to each Pandava.

So, what has that got to do with "how" she got married? There could be marriage due to desire or without carnal desire. That was the whole point of the list.

Can you predict what features would you look to see how a chart would turn out to be like Draupadi? That is what I am interested in. Thanks in advance for any jyotish pointers on this question.

[VioletTwilight]

violetji,
Today definition of marriages is changing. today " live in" relationship is also common. what astrologers have to say about that. very few of living relationship end up in marriage. that is also short marriage. what planets have to say regarding that.
as modern India is evolving, so is society. but much the chunk of Indian society still view divorce and any separation with disdain. no doubt many alternate arrangement can be made in marriage when a couple stays together but not is validated by society. Only 1 in 100 marriage can be termed as blissful . to find true chart where all kinds of happiness is guaranteed is very rare. we live in a world of anomalies so true happiness is elusive
Regards

Dear 2002diksha,

Where exactly is happiness for any person, let alone marriage? That is the balancing act of the life, no? I haven't found one chart is exactly "blissful". Everybody has some "negativity" pulling in their life. If not now, then in a later dasa. That's why they say, nobody can say "I have a happy life" until a minute before they die. Happiness is a fleeting feeling.

The definition of marriage changed the minute jyotish was applied to people in the west. As you can see, there are more types of relationships among people than dharmic Hindu vivaha. So, what we are grappling at is the new definition as applied to our current world. May be there is a definition that is stable (one contender is "having children" or even pregnancy would count as a marriage, other one is one-year of living together-the "common-law", etc).

I don't know. But I think exploration is worthwhile both for clarifying our own conceptions, and leaving this as a record for whoever cares to look in future.

Best regards,
Violet

[rjnth]

Please show us the verses in Bhagavatam where it states Draupadi married to Five Pandavas.

You stated legally Draupadi married to Pandavas... May I know what is non legal and legal here. Do I conclude what you want to say is Arjuna married to Draupadi and rest four brothers didnt marry but only. ...., or unofficially Arjuna married her and thereby legally Pandavas became her husbands.The meaning coming out here Draupadi married to one of the Pandava.

If you like to analyse chart of your desire, I have it in my hard D. Take this one.. please analyse for us. I request other not to analyse this chart.. Let Violet analyse for us in next two days and give his analysis for us. No one to prompt Violet as he is interested so much in it.,I wonder

Detail
10July1949,1115hrs,40.67N.. 73.94W.. Please find out the gender for your interest

[2002diksha]

Violet ji,
In marriage someone can can be very happy even if the wife literally shouts at him. or a woman can still be satisfied if the husband is a cheat. all depends on mental makeup ,like Socrates . he considered himself happy even if he was abused by his wife. so you have correctly said happiness is a state of mind. how you are conditioned right form the beginning is what brings you happiness. for someone a very beautiful wife would happiness or for a very handsome man may be happiness. as right said your happiness depends on how you perceive things . and thats totally subjective.
Regards

[VioletTwilight]

Please show us the verses in Bhagavatam where it states Draupadi married to Five Pandavas.

You stated legally Draupadi married to Pandavas... May I know what is non legal and legal here. Do I conclude what you want to say is Arjuna married to Draupadi and rest four brothers didnt marry but only. ...., or unofficially Arjuna married her and thereby legally Pandavas became her husbands.The meaning coming out here Draupadi married to one of the Pandava.

If you like to analyse chart of your desire, I have it in my hard D. Take this one.. please analyse for us. I request other not to analyse this chart.. Let Violet analyse for us in next two days and give his analysis for us. No one to prompt Violet as he is interested so much in it.,I wonder

Detail
10July1949,1115hrs,40.67N.. 73.94W.. Please find out the gender for your interest

Dear rjnth,

Please do enlighten us why Draupadi was put in dice game by Yudhistara if she wasn't his wife. I don't understand what authority prompted Yudhistara for Draupadi to be put in dice game or be a part of Raajasuya yaaga if she wasn't his wife. I gave the definition of legal already.

(i.e, she can act in the role of dharma patni to any of the pandavas doing any dharmic ritual)

Apart from all definitions, did Draupadi had upa-pandavas or not? So, was she a wife of all pandavas or you have a different name for it? If so, what would that be?

I haven't read Bhagavatam (they say one has to first do enough prayers and accumulate wisdom to actually touch the book and understand its contents), but do have access to Mahabharata by chapter and verse freely online. Please do provide a Mahabharata verse reference and I will definitely look it up.

Also, please do know I have no capacity to predict marriage, which is why I put up this thread to learn more about it. I will keep the chart in my database but unless you tell me what this chart represents, it helps me in no way.

Thanks very much for your inputs.
Best regards,
Violet